Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part III

[CLW]

I have an interest in this prospect so reading this board in peace,

my biggest thing with Laf is that he's a very cerebral, high IQ player.

That doesn't always translate immediately.

It's an intangible thing that can be measured by a player's positioning and anticipation on the ice.

From watching him, it seems like he knows the game and thinks it well, but his overall skills are too raw to implement his IQ like I posted here before.

For example, he may have amazing IQ and know to be in position for a chance, but if his skating hinders him, he's not going to be able to implement his IQ to be in the right position.

That's where I am with Laf. I think his biggest problems are skating and confidence. If he can just improve his skating, you'd be able to see why he's such a smart player.

I had a similar issue when I played my 1st year, (lower level) I knew the game but my overall skills were unpolished so to the casual observer it appeared I sucked. I was slow.

Once I improved my unpolished skills I became a stud and can't help but think this is what's holding back Laf. See if he can improve his skating before shipping him away. He seems to know the game but is a step behind the play.

Laf also has a nose for the net and an NHL shot. Be patient with him. He won't be a 100 point player, but wouldn't be surprised at all if he ends up near PPG. Good luck NYS brothers.

A couple of weeks ago Laffy in an interview confirmed he is working on his skating. He'll be fine, I am not worried about him in the slightest.

 

[Edge]

Yes he has taken 1/3 the number of Shots than Hall and has a higher sh%. That makes his stats far more prone to small sample fluctuations.

Connor leads the league with 93 5v5 shots this year. 20 forwards with 250+ mins (25 mins chosen because that is roughly 10 mins/game) are shooting 18% or higher.

In the last full season (18-19) 3 forwards with 800+ mins (again, about 10 mins/game for the season) did that.

The fact that is offensive numbers are largely coming from his sh% is a detriment not something to be happy about.

I agree the number of shots definitely leads to more pronounced fluctuations and probably only serves to add to the nuances of the situation.

When they're in two different roles, with two different teams, with two different approaches. It becomes equally difficult to know how much influence those factors have in outcomes. For example, I'm not sure Taylor Hall's results are remarkably similar to Lafreniere's if we swap them, and vice versa.

I don't view the sh percent as a detriment, because the number of shots and even the quality of shots is going to be impacted by whether he is given free reign or playing on the third line. I would expect the shot percentage to go down, but the volume to go up. The tricky part is knowing the quality of the opportunities he has or how much rope he would be given.

All of those things influence the final result. So while one might argue the shooting percentage is a detriment, I'd counter that much of that is potentially off-set if he found himself in a similar role to Hall.

 

[Edge]

No they aren't but that's because they don't deserve to. He's had 106 minutes there in his career and has zero points. you brought up his lack of PP production as what seemed to be a way to rationalize his lack of production by saying that he has 18 goals in 85 games and he hasn't even scored on the PP.

To me that is not something to hang your hat on, that if only he had more PP time he'd somehow look way better point wise than he has so far. It's just another disappointing result that Lafreniere hasn't even been able to produce a single point in 106 minutes of PP time in his career. His lack of production might be partially caused by lack of opportunity, but if it is it's a tiny reason at best.

I'm kind of split on that one.

On the other hand, people haven't jumped out. On the other hand, I think that would be a very tall ask when you look at just how much we stack the first unit.

I would be concerned if he's in that first unit slot and not producing. But I just don't think the second unit getting 1/3 the time, while all paired together is a good gauge. We've also seen what tends to happen in the rare instances when someone from the second unit gets a shot with the first unit. They tend to produce. I think that's telling.

A hundred plus minutes of powerplay time over 85 games works out to about to about 1:20. And again, that's not in a focal role as we discussed. It needs to be better, but I don't think it exactly represents a golden opportunity that's been squandered either.

I honestly think some fans aren't giving nearly enough consideration to how this team has been structured and rolled out. It's a significant factor and the fact that ES numbers tend to be in the same ballpark, apart from powerplay numbers, tends to support the concept that the powerplay results would also potentially be in the same ballpark.

 

[SA16]

For the record I am not concerned about his lack of PP2 production. Most PP2s are very weak and it is hard to pick up points like that. 1:20/game on PP2 is not the same as 1:20/game on PP1 since PP1 generally starts powerplays and is more structured whereas a bigger chunk of the PP2 ice time will involve getting in the zone after a line change.

 

[romba]

Step off the ledge he'll be fine

I discussed one play and am now throwing in the towel, no need for the hyperbole

 

[Edge]

For what it's worth, the majority of opinions I've encountered or heard of second-hand around the league don't express much concern or confusion. The general feeling being that usage and the way the Rangers are constructed (which is very unique) significantly impacts some of the plateaus that some fans are expecting to see.

To paraphrase what one scout told me, "if these guys are playing 18 minutes on the first line and getting 3 or 4 minutes on the powerplay every game, no one is focused on the flaws and works in progress. But when you don't have that, suddenly it's a lot easier to focus on what you don't have rather than what you do."

 

[kmart]

I have an interest in this prospect so reading this board in peace,

my biggest thing with Laf is that he's a very cerebral, high IQ player.

That doesn't always translate immediately.

It's an intangible thing that can be measured by a player's positioning and anticipation on the ice.

From watching him, it seems like he knows the game and thinks it well, but his overall skills are too raw to implement his IQ like I posted here before.

For example, he may have amazing IQ and know to be in position for a chance, but if his skating hinders him, he's not going to be able to implement his IQ to be in the right position.

i disagree as i think the term "hockey iq" takes this problem already into account. like adapting to ur own and ur opponents abilities. why does he not use his super high iq for his actual on ice abilities to gain advantage now ?

 

[The Sweetness]

A couple of weeks ago Laffy in an interview confirmed he is working on his skating. He'll be fine, I am not worried about him in the slightest.

I mean, which players his age aren’t working on his skating? And why do we think it’ll improve more compared to than peers his age? He seems at least somewhat physically mature for his age.

I’m considered with Laf even if I’d like to pretend I’m not. He has showed much at all to impress me at this level.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Just to stoke the fire the same criticisms we're made about zegras re:skating and why many thought hed play wing in the NHL...

 

[bleedblue94]

@Edge what is your opinion on his skating? There has been a debate on this board about if his current skating is also holding him back and there are others that think it is a nonissue. I personally believe his max effort stride and lack of explosiveness is something that he will have to work on to realize his potential. I am in no way saying he is a bust at all, just that he needs the time to develop that portion of his game more. In junior the combo of nhl average skating (which is still very good for juniors) and his powerful physique helped him dominate. In the nhl where his skating is average it limits him somewhat. I'm curious of your thoughts

 

[bleedblue94]

Just to stoke the fire the same criticisms we're made about zegras re:skating and why many thought hed play wing in the NHL...

Zegras thinks the game differently and has extraordinary puck skills that help mitigate skating concerns. Totally different types of players with different skillsets.

 

[CLW]

I mean, which players his age aren’t working on his skating? And why do we think it’ll improve more compared to than peers his age? He seems at least somewhat physically mature for his age.

I’m considered with Laf even if I’d like to pretend I’m not. He has showed much at all to impress me at this level.

I don't have a big issue with him skating or not. Laf is clearly unusually talented. Once he is comfortable with the NHL game and has complementary linemates he will be more than fine.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Zegras thinks the game differently and has extraordinary puck skills that help mitigate skating concerns. Totally different types of players with different skillsets.

my opinion is that Zegras is a better center in the NHL than winger, and much of that has to do with the fact that as a center, he carries the puck a lot more and is allowed to roam E-W more frequently rather than always having the puck against the boards where it's easiest for defenders to seal him off. I think Lafreniere would benefit for the same reason. He was a bully in juniors, but he's not a 'big, strong' player at this level at his age.

 

[bleedblue94]

my opinion is that Zegras is a better center in the NHL than winger, and much of that has to do with the fact that as a center, he carries the puck a lot more and is allowed to roam E-W more frequently rather than always having the puck against the boards where it's easiest for defenders to seal him off. I think Lafreniere would benefit for the same reason. He was a bully in juniors, but he's not a 'big, strong' player at this level at his age.

Laf doesnt have the puck skills to play the zegras game. He has always played a powerful game. His body needs to catch up to he playing style for this league. If you're expecting laf to change his position to hope that his game style also changes in the nhl from what he's been his whole life than you are setting him up to fail to become someone he isnt. Laf is not an E-W type of player, so respectfully your post make no sense to me. You are suggesting him to be someone he has never been at a position that he has never played.

If laf had the lower body of chytil than we would be looking at an elite player. I think he just needs dedicated time to develop that part of his body and game.

 

[jay from jersey]

Laf doesnt have the puck skills to play the zegras game. He has always played a powerful game. His body needs to catch up to he playing style for this league. If you're expecting laf to change his position to hope that his game style also changes in the nhl from what he's been his whole life than you are setting him up to fail to become someone he isnt. Laf is not an E-W type of player, so respectfully your post make no sense to me. You are suggesting him to be someone he has never been at a position that he has never played.

If laf had the lower body of chytil than we would be looking at an elite player. I think he just needs dedicated time to develop that part of his body and game.

this.
Add explosive first 2-3 strides, change of pace, which he will do as he gains more confidence and creates a little bit more room for himself.

 

[Kocur Dill]

Reunite the Laf-Strome-Kakko line. Strome is obviously the guy who gets guys going.

I'm not sure the Garden glass can handle all the stick smashing that will ensue.

 

[Synergy27]

I don't have a big issue with him skating or not. Laf is clearly unusually talented. Once he is comfortable with the NHL game and has complementary linemates he will be more than fine.

What makes you say this? The use of the word “clearly” here is important. I interpret this as meaning that, even a casual fan would be able to tell that Laf was a 1OA draft pick because of how he stands out on the ice. I don’t see that in any way, shape, or form.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Laf doesnt have the puck skills to play the zegras game. He has always played a powerful game. His body needs to catch up to he playing style for this league. If you're expecting laf to change his position to hope that his game style also changes in the nhl from what he's been his whole life than you are setting him up to fail to become someone he isnt. Laf is not an E-W type of player, so respectfully your post make no sense to me. You are suggesting him to be someone he has never been at a position that he has never played.

If laf had the lower body of chytil than we would be looking at an elite player. I think he just needs dedicated time to develop that part of his body and game.

I think we disagree about what kind of player Laf 'has always been'. The kid hit a huge growth spurt at 16. Before that he was a smaller player relative to his peers. Scouts drooled over his vision and puck skills. Gretzky said that his vision and skating would make for a good NHL centreman. Laf was raved as being at the top of his draft class in every offensive facet of the game and scouts said that as A BONUS he's even physical

 

[Shesterkybomb]

He needs minutes, his first world junior tour ey he was log jammed behind guys and barely used, he didnt look good, the following year he's being relied on in most situations and he looked all world. His engine needs to rev, he's a young kid feed him some minutes.

 

[Edge]

@Edge what is your opinion on his skating? There has been a debate on this board about if his current skating is also holding him back and there are others that think it is a nonissue. I personally believe his max effort stride and lack of explosiveness is something that he will have to work on to realize his potential. I am in no way saying he is a bust at all, just that he needs the time to develop that portion of his game more. In junior the combo of nhl average skating (which is still very good for juniors) and his powerful physique helped him dominate. In the nhl where his skating is average it limits him somewhat. I'm curious of your thoughts

I'm not sure his skating his holding him back as much as it's note elite enough for him to coast --- which is something he is prone to do.

I think there's definitely room for him to get significantly better though, not unlike Kakko. So the combination of improvements and keeping his feet moving should have him in a much better place.

 

[Rempe73]

Zegras thinks the game differently and has extraordinary puck skills that help mitigate skating concerns. Totally different types of players with different skillsets.

Exactly. Laf’s IQ and skill are nowhere near the level I thought they would be. Part of it is that his first few steps are Lias Andersson bad. Part of it is that he doesn’t really shoot as much. Too slow and doesn’t really shoot = too predictable. I really see flashes of great skill and hockey sense though so I’m not really concerned as much.

 

[bleedblue94]

I think we disagree about what kind of player Laf 'has always been'. The kid hit a huge growth spurt at 16. Before that he was a smaller player relative to his peers. Scouts drooled over his vision and puck skills. Gretzky said that his vision and skating would make for a good NHL centreman. Laf was raved as being at the top of his draft class in every offensive facet of the game and scouts said that as A BONUS he's even physical

None of what you just said equates to an East-West player though, that's what you suggested you start playing as. And if people were actually sold on him being a center don't you think that he would have started playing there? Centers are undeniably more valuable than players that are specifically wingers. If a kid is a viable center then they're always going to be put it center. It's good for their development, and also their draft stock. I appreciate Gretzky's greatness if you will, but just because you said something positive about player doesn't mean that it's accurate.

 

[bleedblue94]

Exactly. Laf’s IQ and skill are nowhere near the level I thought they would be. Part of it is that his first few steps are Lias Andersson bad. Part of it is that he doesn’t really shoot as much. Too slow and doesn’t really shoot = too predictable. I really see flashes of great skill and hockey sense though so I’m not really concerned as much.

I agree with you here, and despite the fact that people have called it lazy to criticize the skating and his explosiveness, I just believe that it's blinder mentality to not look at them with a critical examination. Part of the reason why he's not shooting enough is because he can't get into the holes to put himself in consistent shooting position. He doesn't have the explosiveness to dart in and out of those open spots. I don't understand why people are trying to deny this when we're talking about this player. He's also really able to close the gaps and catch up on odd man rushes to get himself in a good position to be an option. If he's behind the play to begin with he's usually behind the play when it finally materializes in the offensive zone. I don't think it's something bad to just look at the skating issues objectively. The good news is this is something that can be worked on and improved. I would love to know how strong his legs actually are and what kind of training he's been doing on it. Different people mature physically a different stages. just because his neck looks like he's related to Paul Bunyan doesn't mean that his lower half is fully matured and where it's going to be. I just think it's head in the sand mentality though to try to pretend like it's skating and explosiveness aren't affecting his effectiveness at the NHL level. You can get away with that in juniors, if you're going to be an elite player you can't really get away with that unless your IQ and puck skills are exceptional

 

[CLW]

What makes you say this? The use of the word “clearly” here is important. I interpret this as meaning that, even a casual fan would be able to tell that Laf was a 1OA draft pick because of how he stands out on the ice. I don’t see that in any way, shape, or form.

I can't speak for other casual fans. I think your way of looking at it it somewhat backwards. To me the talent is clear, but I am not looking for highlight reel razzle dazzle so much *at this point*, when he is learning the ropes of the NHL game - boardwork, defense, puck movement/transition, d-zone coverage etc. playing on the third line. It's an important part of his development, precisely so he doesn't become Taylor Hall - who recently was sat by his coach for the last 10 minutes of the third period because the coach didn't trust him not to cough up the puck in the neutral zone.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I'm kind of split on that one.

On the other hand, people haven't jumped out. On the other hand, I think that would be a very tall ask when you look at just how much we stack the first unit.

I would be concerned if he's in that first unit slot and not producing. But I just don't think the second unit getting 1/3 the time, while all paired together is a good gauge. We've also seen what tends to happen in the rare instances when someone from the second unit gets a shot with the first unit. They tend to produce. I think that's telling.

A hundred plus minutes of powerplay time over 85 games works out to about to about 1:20. And again, that's not in a focal role as we discussed. It needs to be better, but I don't think it exactly represents a golden opportunity that's been squandered either.

I honestly think some fans aren't giving nearly enough consideration to how this team has been structured and rolled out. It's a significant factor and the fact that ES numbers tend to be in the same ballpark, apart from powerplay numbers, tends to support the concept that the powerplay results would also potentially be in the same ballpark.

I posted in the Kakko thread yesterday, but not sure it showed up. Last week, Vince Mecrcogliano had a great tweet pointing out when teenagers get top-6 minutes and lots of points, they are almost always on terrible teams. Kakko and Lafreniere were both put on teams who were close to making the play-offs. They were not going to take ice-time from the Rangers vets that were on the top-2 lines. Funny thing is, when they won the lotto for Lafreniere, many were saying how it is a GOOD thing he doesn't have to come here and save the franchise or be the top-guy as an 18 year old. Because they had Panarin and Kreider at LW, they can bring him along slowly and let him develop. It is exactly what they are doing and some are complaining about him.