Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part II

[Peltz]

Yup. 100%. And I honestly can't remember ever hearing anyone mentioning specific things either are attempting to improve. I mean, I think it's clear Kakko worked on his defensive game and with a physio. Those changes for him are at least noticeable. So he must have done something. But the fact that these things aren't really mentioned or discussed on an organizational and media level, is in my mind an issue.

Another one, Chytil and his faceoffs. Every damn press conference, Gallant should be saying "Yea, we have Chytil working on his faceoffs night and day." But haven't heard a thing like that out of the organization. So we have to legitimately question, is Chytil really working hard to develop his faceoff ability? If their goal is to turn him into a top 6 center, he damn well should be.

I think some organizations are just more tightlipped than others about exact game plans and what they want to see improved from individual players' games. Just like they're tightlipped about injuries during playoff times.

Better to improve certain elements of your team without tipping your cards than to say things just to make fans nod their heads and seeing the boxes checked off.

Obviously, we aren't privy to most drills they run or things they practice. It would be cool to have more transparency though.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Obviously you don't see everything on social media but throughout the offseason all he posted was him golfing with buddies. Didn't see him post any training. He's in better shape than last season but some of these guys care more about their golf game than getting ready for the season.
Kreider was working 4-5 days a week from the get go. Fox is the only one who can get away with taking golf trips all offseason. This team is too talented to not succeed, I think it's all going to explode in the winter.

Kravtsov was posting more training than anybody, his IG story was him in the gym nearly everyday. Even waking up at 6AM to hit the gym when on vacation in the Dominican. Sure some guys are more into sharing their lives on social media than others but I have a hard time buying the idea that he came in out of shape

Regarding Laf, if you click on some of his buddies IG's... seems Laf was doing more drinking & partying than anything lol

 

[IDvsEGO]

Kravtsov was posting more training than anybody, his IG story was him in the gym nearly everyday. Even waking up at 6AM to hit the gym when on vacation in the Dominican. Sure some guys are more into sharing their lives on social media than others but I have a hard time buying the idea that he came in out of shape

Regarding Laf, if you click on some of his buddies IG's... seems Laf was doing more drinking & partying than anything lol

I didnt see a ton of training on kakko's IG and yet we all know he trained.
I dont really care about what a player posts on social media. I care about how they look.
Laf doesnt look out of shape, and he does look like he got slightly faster. His burst still isn't where we want it to be yet though. He's got solid top end speed, but he's more like strome where it takes a stride or two to get there.

 

[Chytilmania]

im as disappointed in Laf as anyone else but if you’re combing through his social media and taking notes on his personal life/training ratio then you’re just looking for something to be angry at.

I wasn't combing through his social media, but it felt like multiple times a week he was golfing. Players have every right to do what they please, but hopefully he's putting in the work behind the scenes.

 

[Machinehead]

See, my thing is I don't necessarily have a number target in my head in terms of production. Not yet. I just wanna see things I'm excited about.

Lafreniere actually scores goals at a halfway decent rate for his age. But they're all nose-for-the net tap-in goals. He doesn't dazzle you with skill.

And look, that's certainly a trait. Justin Williams and Chris Kreider had/have had very good NHL careers doing that. But I think at 1st overall, you wanted more.

Kakko is the opposite. I do see things from him where I'm like "oh, cool!" but the production is soooo bad that it is becoming a factor. Like I said, I don't have a target, per se, but it's not zero.

I wasnt trying to say Quebec is some different world from NY; I meant to say Quebec is not at all like NYC.

The bright lights, the expectations, and top all of that onto a guy lacking confidence; that is what I was referencing.

also he grew up in a family that isnt exactly extroverted

Clearly there's an issue with offensive players coming to the Rangers, but I just never bought this narrative about the city. New York is so big, fast, and bright, that you're not special because you play for the Rangers. I just don't sense a lot of pressure here. This isn't a small town or a hockey-obsessed city. This is a city where if you see Robert De Niro in Tribeca, you leave him alone. John Lennon moved here because he could just be John from upstairs instead of JOHN LENNON.

I don't know, because I'm not in their heads and I'm obviously used to New York. But to me, it kind of seems like a place where the pressure is off of famous people, especially with hockey being the distant 4th sport. Nobody is going to hound this kid walking down Broadway if he doesn't perform.

If he played for the Habs, he wouldn't be able to leave his house.

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

If he played for the Habs, he wouldn't be able to leave his house.

Well he would, because he’d be scoring at a good clip.

I agree it’s not a “bright lights of NYC” problem. But it’s 1000% a NY Rangers problem, whatever that problem may be.

 

[brakeyawself]

this is absolute bullshit. Lafreniere was #1 on literally every single list out there and every single projection in existence has him as an elite talent who was an out of the box impact player. Nobody said he's Crosby or McDavid. Ever. The consensus was he was at least the best #1 since Matthews and everything he did to that point made this a very reasonable assessment. Please post less.

Um...no, what you are saying is mostly absolute BS. And you perfectly display the exact narratives and perception I am talking about and pointing directly at.

Lafreniere was #1 on literally every single list out there and every single projection in existence has him as an elite talent who was an out of the box impact player.

And? THIS is exactly what I am talking about. OVERHYPED and NOT what he was perceived to be. You said it yourself. "has him as an elite talent who was an out of the box impact player" AND they were all wrong. Every single one of them about him being an "out of the box impact player" because he objectively, in reality, WAS not and IS not an "out of the box impact player." This statement by itself supports everything I said prior.

The fact that "everyone" thought something that wasn't true is the exact point. Now, as far as "elite talent". This is semantics. But an "elite talent" he was not. And again, you go on to support that by stating plainly that he's not Crosby or McDavid, who ARE actually "elite" talents. So if he is NOT on par with those players then he is NOT an "elite" talent. I don't know how much more obvious that can be. Your argument doesn't at all support the position you think it does.

And unfortunately for you and your argument, the time for him to be an "out of the box contributor" has all ready passed. He wasn't one. And now he can never be one, because he's all ready been opened "out of the box" and didn't contribute. So everyone that thought that was objectively wrong about that. And I don't even see how you can reasonably argue otherwise. At least, your current argument isn't reasonable, it only furthers my argument.

Nobody said he's Crosby or McDavid. Ever. The consensus was he was at least the best #1 since Matthews and everything he did to that point made this a very reasonable assessment.

Now this part is the kicker. YES, many people claimed he was a "generational talent" and a "can't miss prospect". You yourself, just claimed everyone thought he was an "elite talent" and "out of the box contributor." Two things he has not proven to be. And by claiming he was a "generational talent" and "can't miss prospect" and as you stated an "elite talent" you and everyone stating those things are in fact comparing him to Crosby and McDavid and other players of that stature who actually were and are "elite talents" and "generational talents" or "generational players" or "can't miss prospects." THAT's what all those statements mean. Because there is no other way to describe Crosby, McDavid and players on that level. Things that Lafrenier never was and still is not. And in reality, some did compare him to those players more directly, some even going as far to suggest he was "like Mario". And you, stating plainly he was "the best #1 since Matthews" again put him on that level. Yes, I see the nuance of "since", but in this case, what does that matter? Because other prospects "since" Matthews, have all ready proven they are thus far better.

As far as people considering him "the best #1 since Matthews" , that statement is again irrelevant. People considering him something, even if it is the majority of people, does not make it true. It just makes it, as I said, unwarranted hype and over-expectation. Which was exactly what my post implied. Again, you have only further supported my arguments with your response. Lafreniere is NOT what so many people thought he was. And he still to this day is not those things. That has not changed. He is NOT the best #1 since Matthews. Not yet at least. Maybe one day he will prove that to be the case. But as of now, he's been far from it. It doesn't matter one bit what he was considered, which is again, exactly my point.

What you are doing unfortunately is using fallacious logic. Your entire narrative is "appeal to authority" or "appeal to consensus". These are statements that are dependent on and reflect the view and perception of either someone you individually deem an "expert" or the crowd. And NEITHER OF THOSE THINGS are proof of something being true. Neither of those things are an actual reflection of reality, but only of the perception of those you are referencing. Which again, is exactly my point.

So please, before you go on further, supporting everything I stated, perhaps consider what you are actually arguing. You are flat out saying that most people thought something that turned out to not be objectively true.

This doesn't at all mean he can't still become a great player. This doesn't at all mean he can't still be an important piece to this Ranger team. It simply means, as I stated originally, that the hype and expectations surrounding Lafreniere were and apparently still are, preposterous and untrue. For whatever reasons, some of which I touched on, Lafreniere was viewed as and championed as something he was not. And the fact that some games into his second season, you and others still can't determine that is completely irrelevant to the truth and doesn't change the actual facts. You only continue to perpetuate the very wrongfully applied hype and expectations I was talking about in my post. And even worse, now that the vale has actually been lifted, it's amazing some continue to cling on to these fallacious narratives and arguments.

So in conclusion, if I were you, I would think very very hard about following your own advice. Maybe YOU should post less. Or at least fully think through what you are saying and arguing before you post it. Because your response and arguments do nothing but further support my initial statements. Good day to you.

Blinders are easy to take off if you want to.

 

[Machinehead]

Well he would, because he’d be scoring at a good clip.

I agree it’s not a “bright lights of NYC” problem. But it’s 1000% a NY Rangers problem, whatever that problem may be.

Well, the Habs aren't exactly an academy of hockey these days either.

I have no doubt that in a place like Tampa or even Carolina, Laf would be very impressive.

Or at least one of them would be. Both Laf and Kakko struggling is clearly a team issue.

 

[mas0764]

See, my thing is I don't necessarily have a number target in my head in terms of production. Not yet. I just wanna see things I'm excited about.

Lafreniere actually scores goals at a halfway decent rate for his age. But they're all nose-for-the net tap-in goals. He doesn't dazzle you with skill.

And look, that's certainly a trait. Justin Williams and Chris Kreider had/have had very good NHL careers doing that. But I think at 1st overall, you wanted more.

Kakko is the opposite. I do see things from him where I'm like "oh, cool!" but the production is soooo bad that it is becoming a factor. Like I said, I don't have a target, per se, but it's not zero.

Agreed, Lafreniere had that one disgusting wrist shot he zipped over the Devils goalie in that blowout last year, other than that he has zero impressive goals.

Kakko has like, half flashes. He does things that look like he's about to turn it on, then he can't finish. He's like the Charlie Brown of hockey. Feels like he can't get out of his own way. And he has way too many possessions that end up with him turning it over in the offensive zone, it feels like.

 

[Machinehead]

Agreed, Lafreniere had that one disgusting wrist shot he zipped over the Devils goalie in that blowout last year, other than that he has zero impressive goals.

Kakko has like, half flashes. He does things that look like he's about to turn it on, then he can't finish. He's like the Charlie Brown of hockey. Feels like he can't get out of his own way. And he has way too many possessions that end up with him turning it over in the offensive zone, it feels like.

I'm no coach but I would start with a simple exercise.

Top six tonight. If you don't have 5 shots, you can watch the next one from upstairs.

They both have to take more initiative.

 

[Crease]

“Post less.”

“No you post less.”

This team is tearing us apart.

 

[huerter]

A lot of people thought Josh Jackson was the best SG recruit since Kobe. You underestimate how many donks and groupthink donks there are out there.

 

[brakeyawself]

I think some organizations are just more tightlipped than others about exact game plans and what they want to see improved from individual players' games. Just like they're tightlipped about injuries during playoff times.

Better to improve certain elements of your team without tipping your cards than to say things just to make fans nod their heads and seeing the boxes checked off.

Obviously, we aren't privy to most drills they run or things they practice. It would be cool to have more transparency though.

Completely possible.

But I guess my point is more, if they are practicing these things, if these concerns have been noted by the team and if the are trying to do something about it, we have not yet seen the evidence of that. The evidence that would be visible progress in those areas, reflected in their actual game play and production.

When players work hard with a skating guru, the effects on the ice are generally very obvious and objective. When a player practices their shot day and night for an ample period of time, that will likely reflect in their actual shooting and production. Same with most any other skill that they should or could be practicing.

So that is the main reason I am skeptical that they are putting the focus and effort into these areas, into these skills relative to each player, that I think are a concern and in which each player would ultimately benefit from.

And if they ARE practicing and focusing on these skills and the results are not showing up on the ice or in their production, then that is in itself a huge problem. That only means whatever variety of training they are doing is not achieving the desired results. Which might actually be an overall worse scenario for this team and its future if true. That would mean they are actually striving and working hard to improve but are not improving. Which would probably be the absolute worst case scenario.

 

[brakeyawself]

“Post less.”

“No you post less.”

This team is tearing us apart.

To be fair, if you are referring to the post I think you are referring to, I would have never aligned myself with such an argument or fan anyway. And I am all for "unity". But in this case I would make an exception and would make sure to sit as far away from the individual in question as possible.

But yes, the team is making it difficult for "unity" to occur, as much as it would be possible under normal circumstance.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Obviously you don't see everything on social media but throughout the offseason all he posted was him golfing with buddies. Didn't see him post any training. He's in better shape than last season but some of these guys care more about their golf game than getting ready for the season.
Kreider was working 4-5 days a week from the get go. Fox is the only one who can get away with taking golf trips all offseason. This team is too talented to not succeed, I think it's all going to explode in the winter.

That’s pretty unfair. You have no idea what he was doing all offseason aside from a few days he shared online of him golfing…

 

[brakeyawself]

A lot of people thought Josh Jackson was the best SG recruit since Kobe. You underestimate how many donks and groupthink donks there are out there.

Yup. It happens quite a lot in sports. And some will cling on to those misconceptions til their dying breath, unfortunately.

Such a debate is still going on for some in terms of Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold. Years after they began playing in the NFL.

I am sure there are many Coyote fans still of the opinion Hayton will eventually "prove the club correct." And luckily for Flyer fans, they no longer have to try to defend Nolan Patrick. All though I would hazard to guess some still do.

 

[brakeyawself]

Well, the Habs aren't exactly an academy of hockey these days either.

I have no doubt that in a place like Tampa or even Carolina, Laf would be very impressive.

Or at least one of them would be. Both Laf and Kakko struggling is clearly a team issue.

That's a definite possibility. Unfortunately there is no way to prove this, even if Laf eventually pulls a JT Miller, leaves the Rangers and explodes. We will never know what could have been.

But as far as development, I generally think, in most cases, the blame or credit should and is legitimately shared. Again, development is a partnership between player and club. The club's job is to facilitate the best route and tools for that individual players development and it's the players job to focus, work hard and be open to such coaching.

When those two things combine, I would think the results would tend to be at their best. When one or both of those things are off, it's far more unlikely to result in success. In this particular case, I still would say it's a bit of both. A microcosm of the "nature vs nurture" debate. So many, for whatever reason, like to attribute outcomes to one or the other of these phenomenon. When in reality, I would say it's objectively provable that both "nature" AND "nurture" are a necessary and at least near equal partnership in determining individual outcomes. One without the other will almost always lead to some sort of imbalance or failure to arrive at the desired result.

 

[brakeyawself]

Kravtsov was posting more training than anybody, his IG story was him in the gym nearly everyday. Even waking up at 6AM to hit the gym when on vacation in the Dominican. Sure some guys are more into sharing their lives on social media than others but I have a hard time buying the idea that he came in out of shape

Regarding Laf, if you click on some of his buddies IG's... seems Laf was doing more drinking & partying than anything lol

I think the entire narrative surrounding Kravtsov was, or at least mostly is, club propaganda. Saving face in the situation. I don't think "conditioning" as was sited had anything to do with the demotion. And I think Kravtsov knew that and reacted poorly because of what the deeper, behind close doors situation actually was. Not that I am supporting that decision on his part. But I think he probably did work very hard. And clearly the demotion had nothing to do with his actual talent or ability or even his perceived ceiling. If it did, the Rangers would probably have shipped him out for a 2nd round pick by now and be done with it.

And yes, I have seen no evidence that Laf is working hard or focused on these areas of concerns. That isn't to say he isn't doing anything. He's probably going through the motions or doing at least the minimum. But that might not be enough. Or at least, based on current progress in these areas, it hasn't been enough to actually facilitate progress.

 

[brakeyawself]

That’s pretty unfair. You have no idea what he was doing all offseason aside from a few days he shared online of him golfing…

In that mindset, it would also be unfair to assume he IS working hard and doing what he needs to do to progress though.

Everything here is speculation. But it is speculation based on visible improvement or lack there of and actual production and play on the ice. Meaning even IF he is working hard, it's not proving to "work" for him. And thus, a different variety of training might be necessary. That is IF he is doing what he needs to. If he's not, which is the speculation on the other side of the coin, then that speaks for itself and we can then arrive at the conclusion, that is why he isn't progressing.

But because he hasn't been visibly progressing in certain areas, means one of those two options are the likely culprits.

But yes, it's speculation in either direction.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Kravtsov was posting more training than anybody, his IG story was him in the gym nearly everyday. Even waking up at 6AM to hit the gym when on vacation in the Dominican. Sure some guys are more into sharing their lives on social media than others but I have a hard time buying the idea that he came in out of shape

Regarding Laf, if you click on some of his buddies IG's... seems Laf was doing more drinking & partying than anything lol

If you guys really think that the amount you post your training sessions on IG is indicative of how hard you're working in the gym then you're just out to lunch.

If anything, someone posting too frequently about being in the gym would make me think this person isn't working out as much and overcompensating by posting it publicly.

I workout 6 days a week, every week. It's just been part of my life forever and it's something I do. I don't think I've posted a single workout post/story in the last 5 years or so.

At the same time, I have friends who workout maybe a handful of times a month and they post every single time they're at the gym. My own wife will workout maybe once a week but she will post a pic of the treadmill or whatever every time.

 

[Machinehead]

That's a definite possibility. Unfortunately there is no way to prove this, even if Laf eventually pulls a JT Miller, leaves the Rangers and explodes. We will never know what could have been.

But as far as development, I generally think, in most cases, the blame or credit should and is legitimately shared. Again, development is a partnership between player and club. The club's job is to facilitate the best route and tools for that individual players development and it's the players job to focus, work hard and be open to such coaching.

When those two things combine, I would think the results would tend to be at their best. When one or both of those things are off, it's far more unlikely to result in success. In this particular case, I still would say it's a bit of both. A microcosm of the "nature vs nurture" debate. So many, for whatever reason, like to attribute outcomes to one or the other of these phenomenon. When in reality, I would say it's objectively provable that both "nature" AND "nurture" are a necessary and at least near equal partnership in determining individual outcomes. One without the other will almost always lead to some sort of imbalance or failure to arrive at the desired result.

This isn't court. I don't need to prove anything.

I already know it. I've watched it for three decades. Every forward is disappointing here. At this point, the idea of individual accountability is a lie we're telling ourselves.

I think the "millionaires on Broadway" culture is out of hand. Adding attachments who are physical like Goodrow and Blais isn't working. It isn't getting the skilled players more engaged.

If I were in charge, they would counting the days to summer because hockey would be a job. I think that's what we need around here.

If Lafreniere doesn't know how to skate at 7pm, he can hit the ice at 7am and learn how. He sucks too much to be as happy as he f***ing is.

 

[zlev]

This isn't court. I don't need to prove anything.

I already know it. I've watched it for three decades. Every forward is disappointing here. At this point, the idea of individual accountability is a lie we're telling ourselves.

I think the "millionaires on Broadway" culture is out of hand. Adding attachments who are physical like Goodrow and Blais isn't working. It isn't getting the skilled players more engaged.

If I were in charge, they would counting the days to summer because hockey would be a job. I think that's what we need around here.

If Lafreniere doesn't know how to skate at 7pm, he can hit the ice at 7am and learn how. He sucks too much to be as happy as he f***ing is.

so you want Mike Babcock to be the coach then?

 

[duhmetreE]

This isn't court. I don't need to prove anything.

I already know it. I've watched it for three decades. Every forward is disappointing here. At this point, the idea of individual accountability is a lie we're telling ourselves.

I think the "millionaires on Broadway" culture is out of hand. Adding attachments who are physical like Goodrow and Blais isn't working. It isn't getting the skilled players more engaged.

If I were in charge, they would counting the days to summer because hockey would be a job. I think that's what we need around here.

If Lafreniere doesn't know how to skate at 7pm, he can hit the ice at 7am and learn how. He sucks too much to be as happy as he f***ing is.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

“Post less.”

“No you post less.”

This team is tearing us apart.

 

[brakeyawself]

This isn't court. I don't need to prove anything.

I already know it. I've watched it for three decades. Every forward is disappointing here. At this point, the idea of individual accountability is a lie we're telling ourselves.

I think the "millionaires on Broadway" culture is out of hand. Adding attachments who are physical like Goodrow and Blais isn't working. It isn't getting the skilled players more engaged.

If I were in charge, they would counting the days to summer because hockey would be a job. I think that's what we need around here.

If Lafreniere doesn't know how to skate at 7pm, he can hit the ice at 7am and learn how. He sucks too much to be as happy as he f***ing is.

"I already know it" = "I insist this is true even if it's actually not which I can't possibly actually know."

Again, you might be correct, but you are in fact just speculating. None of us actually KNOW, in any absolute way, the exact details and problems. All we can know is what is in front of us, which we then speculate about. But it is very clearly just speculation, because there is a great deal we are not privy to.

Yes, perhaps you are correct. Perhaps if you were in charge, those changes would have the desired effect. But suggesting "I already know it" is suggesting some 6th hockey sense, where you, without being privy to all information, happen to hit a vague bullseye with a random throw of the dart. You know the general direction the bullseye and target are at, you know sort of where you need to throw, and you launch hoping to hit the mark.

But in reality, it's still just speculation. And also, rarely are such issues due to a lone causation. We are talking about a multivariate phenomenon here. Meaning, it absolutely isn't and can't be just one thing. We can only list the possible variables, but we can not know with any certainty which variables are actually having a substantial effect.