Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part II

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I'd just like to see something, anything to get excited about. Living here and being friends with Devils fans I've watched quite a bit of Jack Hughes, on TV and in person. Even when he wasn't producing points you saw things to get excited about. Obviously his skating, but also his hands, being ambitious and creative, etc.

Laf? He might as well be a generic generated player from a video game. NOT great for a 1st overall pick.
 
Give the kid PP1 time. I don’t care about Strome. I don’t care about Kreider. I don’t care. Get him on the PP1 unit and give him some confidence.
Non-Rangers fan here… has Laf not had a ton of 1st/2nd line and PP1/2 time? I feel like he’s spent more games than not on 1st/2nd lines in his NHL career thus far.. just doesn’t feel like he’s had anything remotely resembling a lack of opportunities.
 
Non-Rangers fan here… has Laf not had a ton of 1st/2nd line and PP1/2 time? I feel like he’s spent more games than not on 1st/2nd lines in his NHL career thus far.. just doesn’t feel like he’s had anything remotely resembling a lack of opportunities.

We've been over this is many threads here but he has seen majority 3rd and 4th line minutes away from top players and almost no time on the PP relative to every other first overall picks.
 
I'd just like to see something, anything to get excited about. Living here and being friends with Devils fans I've watched quite a bit of Jack Hughes, on TV and in person. Even when he wasn't producing points you saw things to get excited about. Obviously his skating, but also his hands, being ambitious and creative, etc.

Laf? He might as well be a generic generated player from a video game. NOT great for a 1st overall pick.
This is actually the root of what worries me about Lafreniere and Kakko—although they’re certainly good at many things, so this may just be a slower growth than their peers who enter the league and are instantly better than 99% at one thing. The peers have specific attributes that are so otherworldly that they may be discounted by obviousness.

What do Lafreniere and Kakko have that is that obvious?
 
We've been over this is many threads here but he has seen majority 3rd and 4th line minutes away from top players and almost no time on the PP relative to every other first overall picks.

I'm sorry but that is a falsity. Last year, at even-strength, he spent the most time with Mika and Buch.

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools (dobbersports.com)

Quite frankly, he struggled with them in the first part of last season. He started this season on a line with Mika and Kreider. I just don't see the narrative where the Rangers haven't been playing him (or Kakko) on lines with other top six players.

The main quibble I have is that he didn't get more PP time with the first unit last year. Even though he was struggling and that 5 man unit has had some really good success, I believe it was/is short-sighted not to have him getting time (and building confidence) on that first unit.
 
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This is actually the root of what worries me about Lafreniere and Kakko—although they’re certainly good at many things, so this may just be a slower growth than their peers who enter the league and are instantly better than 99% at one thing. The peers have specific attributes that are so otherworldly that they may be discounted by obviousness.

What do Lafreniere and Kakko have that is that obvious?

It's just frustrating to, after two previous top-10 picks walked away, now have two kids picked top-2 who were the consensus selections there, struggle as well.

I'm not expecting them to be McDavid-level. I just want them to be more than Nail Yakupov/Nolan Patrick level. Is that too much to ask? And I don't buy the "But we weren't a bottom team, we have better players" argument.

1. Laine, Svechnikov and Heiskanen were in the same position. A higher ranked team winning the lottery, and they didn't miss a beat
2. You can't really bring up the depth as something holding this team back when we have guys like Blackwell, Blais and Goodrow in the top-6 during their tenure.

Something is fundamentally wrong in this org and I just want them to fix whatever is causing this. It's not as if Kakko and Lafrenière didn't have any groundbreaking skill pre-draft. They just seem like different players, while others like Lundell, Raymond, Stützle, Zegras, Höglander, Cozens etc are playing (or are allowed to play) their own game. Whatever it is, it needs to be fixed.
 
We've been over this is many threads here but he has seen majority 3rd and 4th line minutes away from top players and almost no time on the PP relative to every other first overall picks.
He started the year on the first line and was invisible
He was demoted as he should have been after 5 games or so.
No matter who he plays with he just doesnt look good.
Trade him or send him to Hartford stat
 
It's just frustrating to, after two previous top-10 picks walked away, now have two kids picked top-2 who were the consensus selections there, struggle as well.

I'm not expecting them to be McDavid-level. I just want them to be more than Nail Yakupov/Nolan Patrick level. Is that too much to ask? And I don't buy the "But we weren't a bottom team, we have better players" argument.

1. Laine, Svechnikov and Heiskanen were in the same position. A higher ranked team winning the lottery, and they didn't miss a beat
2. You can't really bring up the depth as something holding this team back when we have guys like Blackwell, Blais and Goodrow in the top-6 during their tenure.

Something is fundamentally wrong in this org and I just want them to fix whatever is causing this. It's not as if Kakko and Lafrenière didn't have any groundbreaking skill pre-draft. They just seem like different players, while others like Lundell, Raymond, Stützle, Zegras, Höglander, Cozens etc are playing (or are allowed to play) their own game. Whatever it is, it needs to be fixed.

I honestly dont know what the hell it is. What could this organization be doing differently than others?

I mean they have the best facilities, all of the players rave about how great they are taken care of by the team. Many FA come here and cite that. So it cant be anything about not being put in a good environment to be developed...right?

Both Laf and Kakko were given plenty of playing time. Sure, not a lot on special teams, but would that have made a big difference? Kakko is playing top 6, and Laf was given top 3 time for the entire start to the season.

What could be pointed to with the Rangers that would lead to such a thing? The way management and coaching communicates with them? They've changed their coach and they have actively regressed in output - so it cant be that...

Unfair or misinterpreted expectations? All the Rangers brass and MSG media have preached patience with a purpose, like it's a mandate with these two and all of the other youngens. Yet, as you have mentioned, 2 other top first rounders have left the team and the Rangers management of them doesnt pass the smell test.

So maybe there is something to that, but what exactly? The players play the game on the ice. There are always outside factors to deal with, all young players have to contend with. In the end - they've been given the opportunity to shine.

It's just really odd, watching these two players and what they looked like before they were drafted and now. Its like their confidence has been completely drained and they have lost the instincts for the game.

Recently, it's really hit me watching Höglander and the effect he's had on the Canucks. His poise with the puck, his speed, just playing the game loosely and with a smile and then comparing that to how Kakko and Laf are like zombies in their attack styles, at times. Laf moreso than Kakko. But you can literally SEE them thinking instead of just playing out there.

I feel like we need Short Round to burn them with a lit torch to release them from whatever spell they are under.

It's confusing, bewildering and f***ing weird to me what is going on with these two - and I wish we had an answer and could attribute it to something the team is doing. Because that would mean it could be resolved. But im not sure anyone knows what the hell it is.

At times you watch these two players and they are literally different hockey players than the studs they drafted. I mean lets remind ourselves of who these players were D-1. When the Rangers won Laf I was beside myself. History changing. Life changing as a fan.

If anyone has read my posts, ive been patient and will continue to be, because as a fan (especially a Rangers fan) its all about hope. And I know that the special unique player the Rangers drafted #1 and #2 respectively is still in there, somewhere.

But are those players fading away or are they just taking longer to develop at the NHL level?

This has become a f***ing sad, disenchanting mess
 
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Recently, it's really hit me watching Höglander and the effect he's had on the Canucks. His poise with the puck, his speed, just playing the game loosely and then comparing that to how Kakko and Laf are like zombies in their attack styles, at times. Laf moreso than Kakko

What frustrates me even more about that, is that he was the Rangers' target with the 20th pick before they traded that away for Trouba.
 
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It's just frustrating to, after two previous top-10 picks walked away, now have two kids picked top-2 who were the consensus selections there, struggle as well.

I'm not expecting them to be McDavid-level. I just want them to be more than Nail Yakupov/Nolan Patrick level. Is that too much to ask? And I don't buy the "But we weren't a bottom team, we have better players" argument.

1. Laine, Svechnikov and Heiskanen were in the same position. A higher ranked team winning the lottery, and they didn't miss a beat
2. You can't really bring up the depth as something holding this team back when we have guys like Blackwell, Blais and Goodrow in the top-6 during their tenure.

Something is fundamentally wrong in this org and I just want them to fix whatever is causing this. It's not as if Kakko and Lafrenière didn't have any groundbreaking skill pre-draft. They just seem like different players, while others like Lundell, Raymond, Stützle, Zegras, Höglander, Cozens etc are playing (or are allowed to play) their own game. Whatever it is, it needs to be fixed.
It’s tough because fox has come in and excelled. Lindgren too. I think at this point in Time chytil is maxed out on his development. I think many are waiting on him to take the next step that may never come, or come down the line when he’s 25 or so. And no way we wait that long with him.
Miller has gotten better despite what some think. He will likely continue to do so.
I’d wager when Barron comes up for good he likely does the same.
I honestly have no idea what the disconnect is.
We all know Quinn came down hard on Laf/kakko for every mistake. Took away ice time. No pp time to speak of etc.
Maybe they are just so conditioned it’s going to be a while before they break it.
That’s why I’m a big believer in how Tampa operates.
Yzerman is doing the same with the wings.
Rookie comes up, he’s on a line with 2 vets to insulate him. Whether he makes mistakes or not, he’s consistently played in all situations with them.
They dont get demoted or have their creativity stifled. They play, win lose or draw.
Same on defense. I rookie with 1 vet. Nemeth just happens to be playing like a sub par vet.
Up to this point, Staal would have been a better partner for nils.
 
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What frustrates me even more about that, is that he was the Rangers' target with the 20th pick before they traded that away for Trouba.

He didn't go until 40th. If they thought he was so good and so much better than anyone else that they wanted to pick him at 20th I would assume they would have made an effort to deal for a pick at some point before number 40.
 
It’s tough because fox has come in and excelled. Lindgren too. I think at this point in Time chytil is maxed out on his development. I think many are waiting on him to take the next step that may never come, or come down the line when he’s 25 or so. And no way we wait that long with him.
Miller has gotten better despite what some think. He will likely continue to do so.
I’d wager when Barron comes up for good he likely does the same.
I honestly have no idea what the disconnect is.
We all know Quinn came down hard on Laf/kakko for every mistake. Took away ice time. No pp time to speak of etc.
Maybe they are just so conditioned it’s going to be a while before they break it.
That’s why I’m a big believer in how Tampa operates.

Fox came in NHL ready as can be, developing in college for 3 full years. Lindgren spent 2 years in college and a few months in Hartford. Barron, like Fox, spent 3 full years in college.

Neither of their paths to the NHL are comparable to Kakko and Lafrenière who joined the org at age 18.

Since Dolan took over, the Rangers drafted top-15 a total of 14 times. Excluding Othmann (too soon), that leaves 13 and out of those, only Marc Staal became a top contributor (top-4 D/top-6 F). I picked top-15 which is a bit arbitrary but the top-half of the first round (in most of those drafts) seems like a decent cut off when looking at players who join the NHL/AHL as a teenager, either D+1 or D+2.

Whatever the problem is, I want them to fix it. This isn't a coincidence anymore and we cannot blame Gordie Clark for Kakko and Lafrenière. It's something deeper.

Even if we're being generous, and include all picks, the only players who really had an impact on this team after joining as a teenager during that time, were Artem Anisimov, JT Miller and Filip Chytil.

3 players in 25 years. YIKES.
 
Fox came in NHL ready as can be, developing in college for 3 full years. Lindgren spent 2 years in college and a few months in Hartford. Barron, like Fox, spent 3 full years in college.

Neither of their paths to the NHL are comparable to Kakko and Lafrenière who joined the org at age 18.

Since Dolan took over, the Rangers drafted top-15 a total of 14 times. Excluding Othmann (too soon), that leaves 13 and out of those, only Marc Staal became a top contributor (top-4 D/top-6 F). I picked top-15 which is a bit arbitrary but the top-half of the first round (in most of those drafts) seems like a decent cut off when looking at players who join the NHL/AHL as a teenager, either D+1 or D+2.

Whatever the problem is, I want them to fix it. This isn't a coincidence anymore and we cannot blame Gordie Clark for Kakko and Lafrenière. It's something deeper.

Even if we're being generous, and include all picks, the only players who really had an impact on this team after joining as a teenager during that time, were Artem Anisimov, JT Miller and Filip Chytil.

3 players in 25 years. YIKES.
All the guys you mentioned like Lundell/ Heiskanen/ Svechnikov etc
Come into teams with a solid culture in place. Good coaching, and leaders on the team. Real leaders. Guys who take them in, work with them in practice, etc admirable guys that these kids can mimic and look up to.
or you have guys like Stutzle/Cozens etc that just go out and play no Matter what because their teams are not good and getting them ice time trumps going for a playoff spot
Nyr is in the middle. We’re not a full rebuild. On the cusp of contending.
Our leaders aren’t leaders.
The last 2 true vet guys we had to look up to was Staal who we bribed det to take, and Fast who he let leave for 2 mill.
This group can’t even name a captain
 
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I honestly dont know what the hell it is. What could this organization be doing differently than others?

I mean they have the best facilities, all of the players rave about how great they are taken care of by the team. Many FA come here and cite that. So it cant be anything about not being put in a good environment to be developed...right?

Both Laf and Kakko were given plenty of playing time. Sure, not a lot on special teams, but would that have made a big difference? Kakko is playing top 6, and Laf was given top 3 time for the entire start to the season.

What could be pointed to with the Rangers that would lead to such a thing? The way management and coaching communicates with them? They've changed their coach and they have actively regressed in output - so it cant be that...

Unfair or misinterpreted expectations? All the Rangers brass and MSG media have preached patience with a purpose, like it's a mandate with these two and all of the other youngens. Yet, as you have mentioned, 2 other top first rounders have left the team and the Rangers management of them doesnt pass the smell test.

So maybe there is something to that, but what exactly? The players play the game on the ice. There are always outside factors to deal with, all young players have to contend with. In the end - they've been given the opportunity to shine.

It's just really odd, watching these two players and what they looked like before they were drafted and now. Its like their confidence has been completely drained and they have lost the instincts for the game.

Recently, it's really hit me watching Höglander and the effect he's had on the Canucks. His poise with the puck, his speed, just playing the game loosely and with a smile and then comparing that to how Kakko and Laf are like zombies in their attack styles, at times. Laf moreso than Kakko. But you can literally SEE them thinking instead of just playing out there.

I feel like we need Short Round to burn them with a lit torch to release them from whatever spell they are under.

It's confusing, bewildering and f***ing weird to me what is going on with these two - and I wish we had an answer and could attribute it to something the team is doing. Because that would mean it could be resolved. But im not sure anyone knows what the hell it is.

At times you watch these two players and they are literally different hockey players than the studs they drafted. I mean lets remind ourselves of who these players were D-1. When the Rangers won Laf I was beside myself. History changing. Life changing as a fan.

If anyone has read my posts, ive been patient and will continue to be, because as a fan (especially a Rangers fan) its all about hope. And I know that the special unique player the Rangers drafted #1 and #2 respectively is still in there, somewhere.

But are those players fading away or are they just taking longer to develop at the NHL level?

This has become a f***ing sad, disenchanting mess
I made a similar post a few days ago. You went into a bit more detail than I did.

The thing that really bothers me is that Kakko looked so good against NHLers at the WCs. If it wasn’t for that, I’d at least be able to rationalize an explanation revolving around both he an Laf dominating their peers because they were more physically developed.

In Laf’s case, I am seriously hoping it’s just a physical maturity issue. He didn’t get labeled as a power forward coming out of Junior, but if you watch his game down there, he really was a guy that asserted himself physically and complemented that with his skill (not vice versa). I don’t really think he was ever a skill first player, even though he obviously has high end skill.

When he does flash, it’s often against other rookies or smaller guys. I specifically remember him taking shifts against Dobson last year and looking like the player we thought he was. It was almost like you could see him thinking “oh, that’s Noah, I’m better and stronger than him and I’m going to go do my thing with him in the corner”. He doesn’t have that same confidence against more physically mature players.

I’ve been at the front of the criticism train on both of these kids. I want to find excuses and hold out hope as much as anyone here though. Let’s hope these two are just on PF curves and that they figure it out while Mika and Panarin are still top players.
 
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The problem with the organization has always been that they always think they can make the playoff and are usually capped out. Chytil, Lafreniere, Kakko, Miller all should have started in the AHL, but we got the shiny new thing, had no cap space to add meaningful players and the solution is to use kids who aren't ready. The only caveat is that with Covid Lafreniere never really had that option but he probably should have went back to junior.
 
I still believe they have to get on their own line, Kakko and Laf, Chytil when he comes back and let them feed off each other and not have to worry about defering to star players, heck you could even have them as the 2nd pp and run the first one just over a minute and give them the 2nd half. Let them know they are competing for ice time with the vets as a line.
 
I still believe they have to get on their own line, Kakko and Laf, Chytil when he comes back and let them feed off each other and not have to worry about defering to star players, heck you could even have them as the 2nd pp and run the first one just over a minute and give them the 2nd half.
Tough decision to cut PP1 time with what CK has been up to.
 
If there’s any silver lining to this, I’m glad it’s going to make people question this organization more. Because that’s what this is - an organizational problem.

Too many people on this board operate under the assumption that Rangers management can do no wrong. This was at its worst under Gorton and JD.It’s always someone else’s fault when we screw up.

This really peaked for me when the whole Panarin drama happened last year. There were a solid amount of posters here that legitimately thought JD was working with the Russian Government to ensure Panarin’s safety. Like he wasn’t some guy without a college education that had spent most of his career to date playing goalie and announcing hockey games. He was a god that could do no wrong in people’s eyes. People can be perceived professionals or “experts” in something and still suck at it, you know. I see it literally every day at work.

I’d been railing on Gordie Clark for years. Yet somehow, no matter how awful we drafted, how much data we had to support the fact that he sucked, the consensus on this board was that he was good and a “solid hockey guy”. Then when he finally “retired” this year (which in business speak means he was brought out to pasture, or let go without actually being officially fired) it was swept under the rug. Now Kakko and Laf are not Gordie Clark issues of course - they were unanimous picks. But the main point still stands - people have difficulty coming to terms with the fact that we screw up, a lot.

I hope more people start to recognize there is something very very rotten in the organization. Not sure if it’s in the press box, the locker room, overseas, etc. But it’s there.
 
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We need true leadership. That’s the one thing I can think of that may be the problem. A true vocal leader who also leads by example and f***ing HATES to lose. Too many passengers on this team. Maybe Igor can be that guy, but he seems too quiet.

So we need a Hank personality on this team. Sounds good to me. Too many soft vanilla personalities like someone should have went after Duclair, when Igor got bumped into, not to fight but to send a message even if it's a facewash or a huge hit by anyone on the team
 
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the Puljujarvi v.s. Lafreniere poll on the mainboards is so demoralizing.

lafreniere's current nhl career has just been one kick in the nuts after another

We need true leadership. That’s the one thing I can think of that may be the problem. A true vocal leader who also leads by example and f***ing HATES to lose. Too many passengers on this team. Maybe Igor can be that guy, but he seems too quiet.
we said this exact line in 2013 right before going to the finals.

"hate to lose" types aren't always a positive. they can be some of the most annoying players to play with.
 
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