Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part II

[Machinehead]

so you want Mike Babcock to be the coach then?

Maybe Mike Babcock with a system from this century.

I think our vets are playing like rich lawyer's sons from Beverly Hills and our kids are playing like candy asses, quite frankly.

We should rectify that. Call it what you want.

You do bring up a valid point just most of the tough coaches are f***ing dumb and hate goals.

 

[Machinehead]

"I already know it" = "I insist this is true even if it's actually not which I can't possibly actually know."

Again, you might be correct, but you are in fact just speculating. None of us actually KNOW, in any absolute way, the exact details and problems. All we can know is what is in front of us, which we then speculate about. But it is very clearly just speculation, because there is a great deal we are not privy to.

Yes, perhaps you are correct. Perhaps if you were in charge, those changes would have the desired effect. But suggesting "I already know it" is suggesting some 6th hockey sense, where you, without being privy to all information, happen to hit a vague bullseye with a random throw of the dart. You know the general direction the bullseye and target are at, you know sort of where you need to throw, and you launch hoping to hit the mark.

But in reality, it's still just speculation. And also, rarely are such issues due to a lone causation. We are talking about a multivariate phenomenon here. Meaning, it absolutely isn't and can't be just one thing. We can only list the possible variables, but we can not know with any certainty which variables are actually having a substantial effect.

Oh, take your f***ing semantics to somebody who likes to read.

 

[Peltz]

Kravtsov was posting more training than anybody, his IG story was him in the gym nearly everyday. Even waking up at 6AM to hit the gym when on vacation in the Dominican. Sure some guys are more into sharing their lives on social media than others but I have a hard time buying the idea that he came in out of shape

Regarding Laf, if you click on some of his buddies IG's... seems Laf was doing more drinking & partying than anything lol

Well if there's one thing we learned from Gabby Petito is that social media is always an accurate portrayal of someone's life.

/s

 

[brakeyawself]

Oh, take your f***ing semantics to somebody who likes to read.

It's not semantics. You are arguing something very specific. I haven't used words to abstract that. I have only responded to what you actually said.

I could just as easily respond, "take your delusions to somebody who likes having their rational mind overcome by someone else's imagination" but I was under the impression we are not supposed to flame here. So I will only suggest that possibility.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't think it's impossible to have structure and score at the same time. It's only impossible here.

Jon Cooper is a prick and Brayden Point has half of the total goals scored in the playoffs this century.

You actually have to improve to stay on the ice down there. It's certainly a concept.

 

[Machinehead]

It's not semantics. You are arguing something very specific. I haven't used words to abstract that. I have only responded to what you actually said.

I could just as easily respond, "take your delusions to somebody who likes having their rational mind overcome by someone else's imagination" but I was under the impression we are not supposed to flame here. So I will only suggest that possibility.

I'm talking about something that's very obvious to anybody who has ever watched this team and you're sitting there "well we don't have forensic evidence of that so it's speculation."

Yeah, sorry, next time I'll go back in time and send every forward we've drafted to Steve Yzerman as a control and publish the results in The Journal of Masturbatory Science.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

In that mindset, it would also be unfair to assume he IS working hard and doing what he needs to do to progress though.

Everything here is speculation. But it is speculation based on visible improvement or lack there of and actual production and play on the ice. Meaning even IF he is working hard, it's not proving to "work" for him. And thus, a different variety of training might be necessary. That is IF he is doing what he needs to. If he's not, which is the speculation on the other side of the coin, then that speaks for itself and we can then arrive at the conclusion, that is why he isn't progressing.

But because he hasn't been visibly progressing in certain areas, means one of those two options are the likely culprits.

But yes, it's speculation in either direction.

Indeed, that's why it's useless to speculate what a player did in their offseason.

 

[brakeyawself]

I'm talking about something that's very obvious to anybody who has ever watched this team and you're sitting there "well we don't have forensic evidence of that so it's speculation."

Yeah, sorry, next time I'll go back in time and send every forward we've drafted to Steve Yzerman as a control and publish the results in The Journal of Masturbatory Science.

Really, the cause of each individuals players issues is so obviously on display?

Your comparison is way off the mark.

Really what you are saying is "They look like spoiled rich kids so they must be." Forget "forensic evidence" . All you have done is looked at a bunch of photographs and made an absolute determination about every individual on the team.

I can tell you are frustrated. Maybe you should look into that Journal of Masturbatory Science. You know, for personal growth.

 

[Machinehead]

Really, the cause of each individuals players issues is so obviously on display?

Your comparison is way off the mark.

Really what you are saying is "They look like spoiled rich kids so they must be." Forget "forensic evidence" . All you have done is looked at a bunch of photographs and made an absolute determination about every individual on the team.

I can tell you are frustrated. Maybe you should look into that Journal of Masturbatory Science. You know, for personal growth.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I think I'm correct when I say things. That's why I say them.

 

[brakeyawself]

Indeed, that's why it's useless to speculate what a player did in their offseason.

I don't think speculation is necessarily useless. Well, first off, that is predominantly what occurs here and on most forums in general. I don't think there would be threads up to their 20th version if that wasn't the case. Plus, the conversation would be really, really dull.

It would probably look like a thread with a post: "This team stinks" with about 50 likes. And then about 50 more responses saying "you're wrong!"

So really, what are we all doing here if not speculating?

But perhaps more importantly, not all speculation is equal. Some actual facts and evidence exist to suggest that some speculations actually have merit. And the rest is mostly a variety of vivid ways to say "This team has me down."

 

[brakeyawself]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I think I'm correct when I say things. That's why I say them.

Yes, the problem isn't in the fact that you are saying something, it's what you are actually saying. Good luck with all that. I'm sure your Husky agrees with everything you have to say. He/she might be a better audience for your solipsism.

 

[CLW]

I hope Gallant has a Torts side to him, I would be surprised if he lets the "A-team" just curb stomp him without a major ruckus.

 

[Machinehead]

Yes, the problem isn't in the fact that you are saying something, it's what you are actually saying. Good luck with all that. I'm sure your Husky agrees with everything you have to say. He/she might be a better audience for your solipsism.

Ok.

If "this top six are a bunch of p***yes" is speculation, then I'm speculating, and I stand by it.

Man on internet thinks his opinion is right. Shelter in place and stand by for further instruction.

 

[mas0764]

"I already know it" = "I insist this is true even if it's actually not which I can't possibly actually know."

Again, you might be correct, but you are in fact just speculating. None of us actually KNOW, in any absolute way, the exact details and problems. All we can know is what is in front of us, which we then speculate about. But it is very clearly just speculation, because there is a great deal we are not privy to.

Yes, perhaps you are correct. Perhaps if you were in charge, those changes would have the desired effect. But suggesting "I already know it" is suggesting some 6th hockey sense, where you, without being privy to all information, happen to hit a vague bullseye with a random throw of the dart. You know the general direction the bullseye and target are at, you know sort of where you need to throw, and you launch hoping to hit the mark.

But in reality, it's still just speculation. And also, rarely are such issues due to a lone causation. We are talking about a multivariate phenomenon here. Meaning, it absolutely isn't and can't be just one thing. We can only list the possible variables, but we can not know with any certainty which variables are actually having a substantial effect.

I always love the "but you don't REALLY know," essays.

There is a difference between pure, actual speculation and things we can be *reasonably* certain of (and reasonable may differ depending on circumstances) given the facts.

Just like it is abundantly clear in the other thread I was arguing that our "package," for Eichel was some combination of 3 or 4 pieces of Buch, Strome, Kravtsov, First round pick, Georgiev, and a defensive prospect, even though we didn't know for *SURE*, it is clear enough that we can talk about it as fact (ish).

In this situation I think it's pretty clear that Laf and Kakko would probably be having more success elsewhere. You don't go 0-for-5 on first round forward picks developing as they do everywhere else and think you just happened to select 5 underachievers in a row, especially when two of them were hands-down consensus.

 

[brakeyawself]

I always love the "but you don't REALLY know," essays.

There is a difference between pure, actual speculation and things we can be *reasonably* certain of (and reasonable may differ depending on circumstances) given the facts.

Just like it is abundantly clear in the other thread I was arguing that our "package," for Eichel was some combination of 3 or 4 pieces of Buch, Strome, Kravtsov, First round pick, Georgiev, and a defensive prospect, even though we didn't know for *SURE*, it is clear enough that we can talk about it as fact (ish).

In this situation I think it's pretty clear that Laf and Kakko would probably be having more success elsewhere. You don't go 0-for-5 on first round forward picks developing as they do everywhere else and think you just happened to select 5 underachievers in a row, especially when two of them were hands-down consensus.

^^^^ Much of which, regarding "speculation" I have clearly all ready expressed in the last hour.

However, it's not a "but you don't really know" essay. It's a "You are clearly ignoring many of the other variables involved and your speculation is about as nuanced, supported and meaningful as a fly on a horses ass" essay.

And then there is this:

In this situation I think it's pretty clear that Laf and Kakko would probably be having more success elsewhere. You don't go 0-for-5 on first round forward picks developing as they do everywhere else and think you just happened to select 5 underachievers in a row, especially when two of them were hands-down consensus.

Which isn't clear at all. Nothing to actually support that particular speculation. They could be just as bad on any other team. While I have all ready stated, numerous times, that the "responsibility" lies on both player and club, for development and lack of development. We don't exactly know how those proportions fall.

Ultimately, Kakko and Laf could both be, as individuals, busts who wouldn't work out on any team in the NHL. Which I examined more in my "essay" about the faulty hype and expectations applied to them prior to the draft. False perceptions of what they actually were and misplaced narratives surrounding them. Which again, leads to this type of generalized blame being flailed about to rationalize their failure. Which again can be applied to both club and player in some unknown ratio.

Neither Laf or Kakko were "generational talents" or "sure things" as they were advertised, or at least in the "generational talent" context, how Laf was advertised. Which leads to a lot of further speculation about what they would be in other scenarios. Which also leads to faulty expectations and the assumption that it's either completely the teams fault or completely the players fault. The fact that Laf was never what he was perceived as, a "can't miss" and "generational player" has a direct effect on all of our expectations and how we now view their situations. But if you remove those fallacious and highly exaggerated narratives and expectations, we just have 2 very good, but not elite prospects who are struggling to progress and find their game at an NHL level. Which ultimately is far more tenable and understandable than "this organization is screwing up a player that wasn't supposed to be capable of being screwed up." Which is exactly what those championing the pre-draft narratives or viewing them in that light are suggesting. But if you remove that, the entire situation and where it progresses from here makes a great deal more sense and fits far better into reality.

And more importantly, doesn't become a completely "black and white" and rhetorical exercise in blame.

 

[LeprechauninBlue]

Leprechaun is a liability out there. Send him down already

 

[Machinehead]

 

[LeprechauninBlue]

Maby start to look at looks/development when drafting. Look at Lafs draft picture, looks like atleast 25, a 18 year old dont look like that if they are not years ahead in maturity compare to his peers. That why he could dominate in juniors, years ahead in maturity. Now it's just don't develope as fast but will maby come ?

 

[JHS]

Laf has got to start moving his feet and stop gliding everywhere. He's not going to be an effective player until he breaks the lazy habits he developed as a younger player. He's a half a step slow because he refuses to keep his feet going when he does not have the puck.

 

[Ruggs225]

Laf has got to start moving his feet and stop gliding everywhere. He's not going to be an effective player until he breaks the lazy habits he developed as a younger player. He's a half a step slow because he refuses to keep his feet going when he does not have the puck.

its not just him. This entire team does this and it drives me nuts. We always just wait for the puck to come to us rather than moving towards the puck and retrieving it.

its why our breakouts suck. We just stand at the boards or lazily float to a the puck. This habit started under Quinn and needs to be broken. ASAP

 

[Raspewtin]

the entire team just stops skating, constantly. the entire f***ing team except for maybe kakko and mckegg (lol). it's absolutely infuriating.

 

[LeprechauninBlue]

I think Tortorella is the key to get all the players moving, even Laf

 

[romba]

Stepan actually had a high peak though.

That a bald joke?

 

[mas0764]

Laf has got to start moving his feet and stop gliding everywhere. He's not going to be an effective player until he breaks the lazy habits he developed as a younger player. He's a half a step slow because he refuses to keep his feet going when he does not have the puck.

Yup, I want to see him chopping and churning those legs.... accelerate! Accelerate!

Gotta get faster, push harder, get to open ice, explode with the puck and without.

 

[Rempe73]

He sucks too much to be as happy as he f***ing is.

Lmao facts