Alexander Burmistrov "will almost certainly return to NHL"

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KCjetsfan

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That's a nice lineup on paper, lots of skill, but I don't think we would necessarily be better. A few teams, especially the West Coasters would hurt us and beat us. Our 2nd line would rarely have puck possession if Scheifele is the most physical player out there. Switch Ehlers and Wheeler and I like it more. Send Ehlers down for another year of development, and physical maturity, without burning a year of his free agency and we are better off. Lowry is a dominant player, still improving, I don't think he gets demoted.

You also demoted our captain from the PP, are you trying to say you don't want to re-sign him. I hope Enstrom gets demoted from the 1st PP, after Perrault has shown how a player who can move the puck and is a risk to shoot it too can improve it.

I don't mind the 4 line hockey idea, but you clearly don't like physical hockey, which is part of our identity this year, and Maurice's coaching style? Curious, as well, how important do you think faceoffs are towards puck possession?

I'd prefer

Ladd-Little-Frolik (all zones)
Perrault-Scheifele-Wheeler (offensive zone)
Kane-Lowry-Burmistrov (primarily defensive, some offensive zone)
Halischuk-Cormier-Thor/Peluso/Lipon (grinders)

St. John's

DeLeo-Petan-Blomqvist
Balisy-Albert-Kosmachuk
Jaffray-Copp/Lodge-Lipon
?-Olsen-Brassard

Petan, Lipon, and Kosmachuk give us some call ups, at least, as the best way to have depth as an organization is to have prospects with entry level contracts that can be brought up, which is what is currently hampering us (although O'Dell is an unused option)...

Question, how did you make Harrison and Clitsome, and their contracts, magically disappear from our roster?

a few things you say don't make much sense. other than his line 2, which granted isn't very physical, how can you say he's not fielding a physical line up? Each line has at least two players most would consider physical.

Not sure why you think dumping Harrison in the minors isn't potentially in the cards. I don't see him as a long term Jet once injuries start recovering and his contract is pretty minimal. Clitsome may be a bit harder, but he has 'some' value potentially.

Lowry would be a 4th line C on a deeper team right now. He may well top out as a 3rd Liner legitimately eventually, and don't get me wrong, he's played a good rookie game so far, but the only way I see him being a scorer, which is what we need on a 3rd line, is by grinding out goals. It'll never happen but having 4 trusted lines is what we should shoot for, and him anchoring the 4th, playing more minutes than our 4th plays currently, would be a great situation to be in.

It does really depend on Ehlers, and I'd be fine going your route if there's any question of whether he's ready to make an impact next year. If there is a question, then I'd probably agree your projected F lines (other than 4th) are probably decent.
 

Jml78

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Dec 14, 2013
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Overrated, a whiner and someone who relies on his talent and is allergic to hard work. Doesn't seem like the type of player who fits in with what the Jets want to be.
 

garret9

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That's a nice lineup on paper, lots of skill, but I don't think we would necessarily be better. A few teams, especially the West Coasters would hurt us and beat us. Our 2nd line would rarely have puck possession if Scheifele is the most physical player out there. Switch Ehlers and Wheeler and I like it more. Send Ehlers down for another year of development, and physical maturity, without burning a year of his free agency and we are better off. Lowry is a dominant player, still improving, I don't think he gets demoted.

You also demoted our captain from the PP, are you trying to say you don't want to re-sign him. I hope Enstrom gets demoted from the 1st PP, after Perrault has shown how a player who can move the puck and is a risk to shoot it too can improve it.

I don't mind the 4 line hockey idea, but you clearly don't like physical hockey, which is part of our identity this year, and Maurice's coaching style? Curious, as well, how important do you think faceoffs are towards puck possession?

Question, how did you make Harrison and Clitsome, and their contracts, magically disappear from our roster?

Chicago has done fine against the "big, bad west". So has Detroit, Montreal, Tampa Bay, Toronto, Florida, Ottawa, Pittsburgh, NYI, NYR, Philly. All teams with more reg wins than loses against the west. Physicality, size, and strength is an attribute that combines with hundreds of other things in getting desired results, it isn't something separate from it. I don't agree with your notion at all this team would struggle.

Remember, you want to be physical not for the sake of being physical... it's to accomplish something. Out shooting and out scoring. If you fail to do those, then your attempt at being physical fails you.

Weird you say Perreault line wouldn't have possession when Perreault has the best puck possession numbers of the Jets forwards. Scheifele-Perreault when together have had possession of the puck 56.3% of the time. That's in the elite cup contender ranges for a second line. If Ehlers is ready, then he's ready. If not, then he's not.

Lowry is the lowest scoring player of the bunch and so doesn't go on a scoring line; he's also has the lowest two-way numbers other than Scheifele... although really good two-way numbers still. Having Lowry on the fourth line is like Chicago having Frolik on the 4th line. It isn't anything against him, it's just an embarrassment of riches.

You are right about Ladd on the PP. I just wanted to sneak Nic "Saucer Pass" Petan on their. But you are right it would likely be Ladd out of merit and rightfully so.

I think you are highly underestimating how successful Enstrom has been on the power play. His points per minute is second only to Byfuglien and Postma. Over the past 4 seasons it is almost identical to Perreault who has been playing most of his minutes as a forward (who tend to avg far higher pts/min even on PP).

If you think I don't like physical hockey, then you didn't see my stat line in midget/junior (league leading PIM two seasons for goaltenders ;) okay so for a goalie that isn't that special). I don't see any guys that Maurice will think is slow being added to the roster. I see size aspect on every line. I see guys who can and do play physical AND effectively.

Faceoffs impact possession but not by much. The effects last about 8-12 seconds depending on the team's structure and system. Being the best team in the league in even strength faceoffs versus the worst in the league is worth about 3-5 goals in your goal differential, which adds up to about 1 point in the standings on average. Power play / penalty kill adds about a point or two more. That's at the extremes. Realize that most teams are closer to the middle than in the extremes. Faceoffs impact the game but are highly overrated by general public due to years of narratives from mainstream sports media. I'll ask you a question in turn: do you know how much and what direction a team's win% changes when out hitting as opposed to out hit? ;)

For Harrison and Clitsome: Move them. Try trade. If not Harrison with retained salary isn't that expensive to send down. Chiarot and Clitsome really isn't a difference either if you move Chiarot down at start of season.
 
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garret9

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Overrated, a whiner and someone who relies on his talent and is allergic to hard work. Doesn't seem like the type of player who fits in with what the Jets want to be.

Please provide some proof of:
All above to prove overrated
That he is a whiner
That he relies on talent and is allergic to hard work (weird thing to say about rink rat)
That he doesn't fit with what the Jets want to be

Thank you
 
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voyageur

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Jul 10, 2011
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Chicago has done fine against the "big, bad west". So has Detroit, Montreal, Tampa Bay, Toronto, Florida, Ottawa, Pittsburgh, NYI, NYR, Philly. All teams with more reg wins than loses against the west. Physicality, size, and strength is an attribute that combines with hundreds of other things in getting desired results, it isn't something separate from it. I don't agree with your notion at all this team would struggle.

Remember, you want to be physical not for the sake of being physical... it's to accomplish something. Out shooting and out scoring. If you fail to do those, then your attempt at being physical fails you.

Weird you say Perreault line wouldn't have possession when Perreault has the best puck possession numbers of the Jets forwards. Scheifele-Perreault when together have had possession of the puck 56.3% of the time. That's in the elite cup contender ranges for a second line. If Ehlers is ready, then he's ready. If not, then he's not.

Lowry is the lowest scoring player of the bunch and so doesn't go on a scoring line; he's also has the lowest two-way numbers other than Scheifele... although really good two-way numbers still. Having Lowry on the fourth line is like Chicago having Frolik on the 4th line. It isn't anything against him, it's just an embarrassment of riches.

You are right about Ladd on the PP. I just wanted to sneak Nic "Saucer Pass" Petan on their. But you are right it would likely be Ladd out of merit and rightfully so.

I think you are highly underestimating how successful Enstrom has been on the power play. His points per minute is second only to Byfuglien and Postma. Over the past 4 seasons it is almost identical to Perreault who has been playing most of his minutes as a forward (who tend to avg far higher pts/min even on PP).

If you think I don't like physical hockey, then you didn't see my stat line in midget/junior (league leading PIM two seasons for goaltenders ;) okay so for a goalie that isn't that special). I don't see any guys that Maurice will think is slow being added to the roster. I see size aspect on every line. I see guys who can and do play physical AND effectively.

Faceoffs impact possession but not by much. The effects last about 8-12 seconds depending on the team's structure and system. Being the best team in the league in even strength faceoffs versus the worst in the league is worth about 3-5 goals in your goal differential, which adds up to about 1 point in the standings on average. Power play / penalty kill adds about a point or two more. That's at the extremes. Realize that most teams are closer to the middle than in the extremes. Faceoffs impact the game but are highly overrated by general public due to years of narratives from mainstream sports media. I'll ask you a question in turn: do you know how much and what direction a team's win% changes when out hitting as opposed to out hit? ;)

For Harrison and Clitsome: Move them. Try trade. If not Harrison with retained salary isn't that expensive to send down. Chiarot and Clitsome really isn't a difference either if you move Chiarot down at start of season.

You know after I wrote my response I was thinking that your lineup looked a bit like a Hawks team. It is a different era of hockey. Chicago does play that skating style, but I think one of our advantages against them this year has been our physicality. It's also the leverage the Kings had to knock them out of the playoffs last year, I would say, and superior goaltending. I think we are bigger and more physical than anybody in our division, I guess time will tell if it is a deciding factor positively or negatively. I am interested in the hitting vs. non-hitting win%, it does not seem like a deciding factor. But size does not always equate hitting, I look at Lowry as a player who uses his size to win alot of loose pucks.

The Isles and Rangers are by no means small teams, but they mix speed and size well. I may take some flack for saying this but the Habs are a team that dives a lot, and capitalizes on this aspect, with some home-ice refereeing, this is one way to circumvent lack of size. I would say we are an honest character team, which may be politely saying, goony.

Interested to see that Scheif-Perrault have such good possession stats, it still strikes me that they have struggled of late keeping the puck out of the net, against more physical teams, and it seems as though they have not had good possession stats in recent games?

I would love to see Petan on the Jets PP, I thought he was going to earn a spot this year, just on that basis. Enstrom may put up points, but I think it's hard to argue that Perrault has not been more effective, especially with Buff on the point, Enstrom just doesn't have the same offensive instincts, with give and go's or attacking like a forward, which has made Buff more prominent too. I'd be really surprised if Toby is not moved to the 2nd unit PP, with either Trouba, or Bogosian permanently.

I'd also be surprised if Harrison was moved again. He's Maurice's guy, and I think he probably has a more important role than Postma going forward, unless Buff goes back to forward. I think if Morrissey earned a spot it would be at Chiarot's expense, but that's hearsay (or heresy?) anyway.

I am surprised that face-offs are considered so statistically unimportant. I watched the Habs gets eliminated from the playoffs in consecutive years by losing important defensive zone face-offs, and someone in the organization obviously saw it too, because they picked up Malhotra, and I believe now lead the league in face-off %. The Kings didn't have anybody under 50% last year, if am correct. I think of the role Bergeron played for Canada in 2010, and the way Maurice has praised Lowry for winning big defensive zone draws in pressers, is there maybe a bit of disparity between the coach's and statistician's optic? That was one thing that stood out to me about your lineup is that none of our centres would be faceoff aces. What would the difference in Slater's 56% and Burmistrov's 48% be in terms of possession, on, say, the PK?



Anyways just a few thoughts, respect for yours as well, Garrett (Hextall?:laugh:)
 

garret9

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All is in spirit of good discussion and fun. I respect you as well. Respectful discourse with disagreement is the best conversations (IMO).

I like a physical team, but I don't think we lose much physicality with that team I made. I don't see a huge difference in your roster from mine so it's interesting that you pinpoint on that. Ladd, Wheeler, Kane, Lowry, Stuart, Chiarot, Byfuglien, Bogosian, and Trouba are all physical guys and pretty big. Even some of the small(er) guys like Petan, Ehlers, and (especially) Burmistrov don't play small. I enjoy watching Petan so much in the W because he's a guy who may be 5'9 but his mouth and attitude is 6'5.

I doubt Burmistrov would be that low in the FO since it tends to progress similar to other things in growth curves. He'd likely be better and I believe (but could be wrong) doing better in KHL too (no idea if that translates or not though). But to answer your question, Burmistrov has some of the best PK results of the Jets while Slater has the worst, in possession, shots, and goals.

For the east vs west team, I just grabbed every east team and looked at records, wasn't really a size thing haha. Point is still the same though: size is an attribute. It makes you better all things equal, but you can still be a better player (or team) than another regardless of whether you have it or not. TBH I think MTL has lucked out a bit on those wins (plus Price), maybe a bit of what you are saying too, as they are a very meh possession team.

The trend in win% is that team's tend to have much better when out hit rather than out hitting. Now that's a bit dishonest for me to use that, because that doesn't show physicality, just out hitting. The reason a team hits less is usually because when you have the puck you don't get many opportunities to hit.

For the Perreault thing, you have to remember that a player that gets sometimes outworked physically can make up for it elsewhere. Your final impact is everything combined. Perreault is a guy who has made a living being one of the top possession players in the league despite his small size.

Funny you point out Bergeron and Kopitar (indirectly with saying Kings). These are the two best open-play (if you remove the seconds after a faceoff to remove faceoff impact) centres in the entire league. That might have a bit to do with it. Now I'm not saying faceoffs don't matter, because they do. Just that hockey is a game that possession change happens so often and so quickly. In addition, a team that wins a faceoff in the d-zone still has to move 3 zones. The major impact is being a better possession team so you do not take many defensive zone FO as you do in the o-zone.

Fun little anecdote that shows the dynamics of hockey: Tyler Dellow did some research on the Oilers last year. Many were lamenting their top 6's poor FO numbers last season. They did some system adjustments and the FO numbers started improving. Dellow though showed that their shots against in the d-zone within 10s after FO were getting worse instead of better. The reason was that the wingers were supporting to win the FO but it caused them to be in a worse position to breakout than before.
 
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CorgisPer60

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Fun little antidote that shows the dynamics of hockey: Tyler Dellow did some research on the Oilers last year. Many were lamenting their top 6's poor FO numbers last season. They did some system adjustments and the FO numbers started improving. Dellow though showed that their shots against in the d-zone within 10s after FO were getting worse instead of better. The reason was that the wingers were supporting to win the FO but it caused them to be in a worse position to breakout than before.

Yes, I suppose one would need an antidote to willingly do advanced stats blogging for the Oilers. :)
 

tntkid

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Has anyone even heard from Burmistrov or his manager.

I doubt we ever see him in Jets uniform again because he seems to prefer the KHL.
 

Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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You know, watching Ehlers and Bjorkstrand work together in the WJCs got me thinking of if Ehlers played on Burmi's wing.

/drool

Actually, Bjorkstrand reminds me of Scheifele. I think Scheifele would do well with Ehlers.
 

Skidooboy

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Please provide some proof of:
All above to prove overrated
That he is a whiner
That he relies on talent and is allergic to hard work (weird thing to say about rink rat)
That he doesn't fit with what the Jets want to be

Thank you

I'm throwing down a gauntlet here.
Anytime anyone offers up evidence of Burmistrovs difficult personality. His supporters shout "prove it"
The only proof any of us have is what we hear and read in the media.
I repeatedly bring up his countryman Antropovs comments,
The fact that he was benched, was seen arguing with a coach, the reports in his of his stormy exit interview.
I'm sorry Garret plugging your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALA RUMOURS RUMORS RUMOURS" over and over again is getting tiring. There is abundant evidence.

I don't care who you are or how bad the coach is(Noel) if your a 20 yr old in the NHL you sit tight shut up and play the game the coach tells you to. That's called being a professional. You think I get in a screaming match with my boss cause I don't like the project I'm assigned?

Noel coached Scheif and Trouba, I saw Noel screaming in Schief's ear on the bench, did 55 yell back? No he took it, went out and worked his but off to earn his ice time. Funny he's still here, still playing, still developing.


As for his play, well I've watched a lot of players over the years and Burmi isn't among my best ever list that's for sure. You can call it Bias or bigotry or whatever, but I don't think every player who excels in Europe can instantly apply their game to the NHL.

Burmi seemed like one of many players I've seen who had difficulties but rather than keep his head down and listen to teammates Beyak talked about him demanding respect and being difficult to coach.

Why don't you address my points in a realistic manner one at at time.

Explain why Antropov, A countryman with a similar cultural background, with excellent grasp of the English language and ability to express himself clearly, said Burmi was "difficult to play with".
Tell me why that opinion is invalid?

Explain to me why you're not concerned about a 19-20-year-old kid screaming at his professional NHL coach on the bench isn't a concern.

Explain why journalists reported in the newspaper TV and radio that Burmistrov was "difficult to coach"
 

garret9

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I'm throwing down a gauntlet here.
Anytime anyone offers up evidence of Burmistrovs difficult personality. His supporters shout "prove it"
The only proof any of us have is what we hear and read in the media.
I repeatedly bring up his countryman Antropovs comments,
The fact that he was benched, was seen arguing with a coach, the reports in his of his stormy exit interview.
I'm sorry Garret plugging your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALA RUMOURS RUMORS RUMOURS" over and over again is getting tiring. There is abundant evidence.

I don't care who you are or how bad the coach is(Noel) if your a 20 yr old in the NHL you sit tight shut up and play the game the coach tells you to. That's called being a professional. You think I get in a screaming match with my boss cause I don't like the project I'm assigned?

Noel coached Scheif and Trouba, I saw Noel screaming in Schief's ear on the bench, did 55 yell back? No he took it, went out and worked his but off to earn his ice time. Funny he's still here, still playing, still developing.

As for his play, well I've watched a lot of players over the years and Burmi isn't among my best ever list that's for sure. You can call it Bias or bigotry or whatever, but I don't think every player who excels in Europe can instantly apply their game to the NHL.

Burmi seemed like one of many players I've seen who had difficulties but rather than keep his head down and listen to teammates Beyak talked about him demanding respect and being difficult to coach.

Why don't you address my points in a realistic manner one at at time.

Explain why Antropov, A countryman with a similar cultural background, with excellent grasp of the English language and inability to express himself clearly, said Burmi was "difficult to play with".
Tell me why that opinion is invalid?

Explain to me why you're not concerned about a 19-20-year-old kid screaming at his professional NHL coach on the bench isn't a concern.

Explain why journalists reported in the newspaper TV and radio that Burmistrov was "difficult to coach"

That's not at all what I'm doing. What I'm requesting is people don't just throw out assumptions without backing it up.

There is a difference between saying I think such here is why, and people just saying something as if a fact.

Antropov is not a countryman by the way, no more so than a Canadian is to a Brit, not that that changes anything. For or against your case.

I don't exactly see an abundance of evidence that you do. I see conclusions brought together by some evidence in your case here, but in the others I replied to just jumping to conclusions as if fact.

All we do know is that he was a young, skilled, flawed player who didn't seem to have a great relationship with his coach. The relationship went both ways, which is not comparable to Trouba or Scheifele. I've never claimed that he didn't have issues. I've never even claimed that these were even fixed. Maybe they are and maybe they are not. Maybe they were overstated and exaggerated in the media, and maybe they weren't. I've not been ignorant of them regardless.

We know that Noel and him didn't see eye-to-eye. Please cite to me the quotes on the argument with Noel and the stormy exit interview, because that would be a first to me.

We know that he said he didn't understand or was told why Noel used Jokinen above him and he didn't understand why. Maybe it was BS from him. Maybe it was all his fault he doesn't know. But that's all we do know.

We know he was almost traded twice prior to the trade deadline. Or well, I knew that (feel free to audit me mods), I'm not sure if I remember how much was or wasn't free knowledge.

Remember that I actually work as a consultant for many of the media members you are quoting. I talk to them all the time about these things. They often say more than they know and they often know more than they say. Take everything with a grain of salt. No media member has said outright that Burmistrov is one thing or another. Just supposition much like we do.

Burmistrov is a player who didn't agree with his coach. He said he deserved certain TOI and usage over Jokinen, and by on-ice results he was righteous. Saying how he reacted to the coach though is just supposition with some circumstantial evidence.

The only article that outright says he's difficult to coach outright is Wynman's opinion piece where he's saying why the Jets were better losing players like Hainsey, Wellwood, and Burmistrov. That was his opinion.

----------------------------

However, all of this is moot, as I was asking about him being overrated by two individuals with drive-by comments and even you have not answered that. Maybe you can help me out.

What level is he being valued?
What level is he actually at?
What is the difference?
 

puck stoppa

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Jul 5, 2011
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I am a Burmi fan but the biggest question is how he would be received by the vets in the locker room after leaving the team for a few years, and throwing a team mate under the bus (Jokinen comment). Would it affect the locker room chemistry or are guys willing to accept him with open arms? Not that they have a choice but just wondering about chemistry, you need good leadership in the room hence Thorburn ;)
 

Flair Hay

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I fall in the middle on this.

Burmi for sure had a bad attitude. More accurately one of entitlement. It's pretty easy to spot if you care about that stuff.

That said, the guy is a facilitator. He's not a finisher at all but he does most other stuff well. He has more than enough talent to make a difference here.

Only thing is he needs to accept that he isn't anything special and needs to be a part of the team the way everyone else is. If he's smart, he'll take a longer term mindset and let his play do the talking. He has to be okay with nothing more than a promise of a clean slate, whatever his salary may be.
 

theamazingchris

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Jan 18, 2013
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I am a Burmi fan but the biggest question is how he would be received by the vets in the locker room after leaving the team for a few years, and throwing a team mate under the bus (Jokinen comment). Would it affect the locker room chemistry or are guys willing to accept him with open arms? Not that they have a choice but just wondering about chemistry, you need good leadership in the room hence Thorburn ;)

It's tough to say for sure, but for every guy that feels like he's a bit over-ambitious, I'm willing to bet there's another that thinks he was getting a raw deal. In the end, I think it wouldn't matter. People have interpersonal issues all the time, but they get solved more often than not.
 

puck stoppa

Registered User
Jul 5, 2011
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It's tough to say for sure, but for every guy that feels like he's a bit over-ambitious, I'm willing to bet there's another that thinks he was getting a raw deal. In the end, I think it wouldn't matter. People have interpersonal issues all the time, but they get solved more often than not.

I agree that not all teammates need to get along, this even happens on teams that win. But that whole thing about throwing Joker under the bus publicly is a tad different, all should be kept in house, maybe he's learned from that and will come in ready to contribute to the team. It would be interesting to see his reaction when he starts on the third line, that will test his maturity for sure as he most likely feels he's top six.
 

garret9

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I'm not really on one side or the other.
I'm not saying ___ is just rumours.

I'm simply saying there's a lot that goes on and goes around. Humans are complex. Humans change and also make mistakes. Humans also make assumptions of other humans.

I haven't said things are one way or the other. I'm just encouraging people to not assume anything.
 
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