Alex Ovechkin - 500 Goals

[frisco]

Well at least it isn't a NEW Ovechkin thread...

My Best-Carey

 

[HF007]

I'm sure the 894 record matters for casual fans, but I think the HoH forum is smart enough to know that it doesn't really matter. Marleau beat Howe's game played record, but no one seriously thinks he had better longevity.

Gretzky's goal-scoring was relatively short, and occurred during the highest scoring period in post-consolidation history. A very high peak, but he quickly comes out of the top 3 goal scorers years after year.

Most times leading the league in goals
Ovechkin: 9
Bobby Hull: 7
Esposito: 6
Conacher: 5
Rocket Richard: 5
Gordie Howe: 5
Gretzky: 5

Most times top-3 in the league in goals
Gordie Howe: 12 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3)
Ovechkin: 11 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 3)
Bobby Hull: 10 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3)
Rocket Richard: 10 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3)
Esposito: 7 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2)
Conacher: 5 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1)
Gretzky: 5 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1)

I think if we are talking about best goal-scorer of all-time, Gretzky is on the outside looking in. Howe, Ovechkin, and Bobby Hull all have arguments for being the best goal-scorer of all-time. Gretzky's peak is right with them (as is Brett Hull's), but that's it.

I agree but it closes all debates then, sort of like how 7>4. Also impressed by Gordie Howe being top 3 that long, but the O6 factor makes OV even more impressive

 

[The Panther]

I agree but it closes all debates then, sort of like how 7>4. Also impressed by Gordie Howe being top 3 that long, but the O6 factor makes OV even more impressive

It doesn't close any debate.

When Gretzky scored his 802nd goal (quite a small deal at the time... didn't merit major headlines), it didn't suddenly end all debate that he was a greater goal-scorer than Gordie Howe or Bobby Hull or...

As an Ovechkin fan, I would rather see him retire, say, next season with an unbroken string of 40-50 goal seasons than hang around until he's 40+ with 15-20 goal seasons just so he could reach 895.

 

[MadLuke]

When Gretzky scored his 802nd goal (quite a small deal at the time... didn't merit major headlines), it didn't suddenly end all debate that he was a greater goal-scorer than Gordie Howe or Bobby Hull or...

The teams (nhl?) made an on ice ceremony after the game.
https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600...DAILY-News-Wayne-Gretzky-Greatest-October.jpg


News paper made a souvenir edition for it:
https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600...ily-News-March-31-1994-The-Greatest-Wayne.jpg

 

[Hippasus]

I'm sure the 894 record matters for casual fans, but I think the HoH forum is smart enough to know that it doesn't really matter. Marleau beat Howe's game played record, but no one seriously thinks he had better longevity.

Gretzky's goal-scoring was relatively short, and occurred during the highest scoring period in post-consolidation history. A very high peak, but he quickly comes out of the top 3 goal scorers years after year.

Most times leading the league in goals
Ovechkin: 9
Bobby Hull: 7
Esposito: 6
Conacher: 5
Rocket Richard: 5
Gordie Howe: 5
Gretzky: 5

Most times top-3 in the league in goals
Gordie Howe: 12 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3)
Ovechkin: 11 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 3)
Bobby Hull: 10 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3)
Rocket Richard: 10 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3)
Esposito: 7 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2)
Conacher: 5 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1)
Gretzky: 5 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1)

I think if we are talking about best goal-scorer of all-time, Gretzky is on the outside looking in. Howe, Ovechkin, and Bobby Hull all have arguments for being the best goal-scorer of all-time. Gretzky's peak is right with them (as is Brett Hull's), but that's it.

I concur with this analysis, as someone who tends to favor protracted prime over peak.

 

[Khomutov]

It doesn't close any debate.

When Gretzky scored his 802nd goal (quite a small deal at the time... didn't merit major headlines), it didn't suddenly end all debate that he was a greater goal-scorer than Gordie Howe or Bobby Hull or...

As an Ovechkin fan, I would rather see him retire, say, next season with an unbroken string of 40-50 goal seasons than hang around until he's 40+ with 15-20 goal seasons just so he could reach 895.

Why should he retire next season? He just signed a five year contract. He is playing his best hockey in years. I can see a slow decline in his goal scoring, but he still will scoring 30-35 goals per season in two-three years. Injuries aside, of course.

 

[bobholly39]

I'm sure the 894 record matters for casual fans, but I think the HoH forum is smart enough to know that it doesn't really matter. Marleau beat Howe's game played record, but no one seriously thinks he had better longevity.

Gretzky's goal-scoring was relatively short, and occurred during the highest scoring period in post-consolidation history. A very high peak, but he quickly comes out of the top 3 goal scorers years after year.

Most times leading the league in goals
Ovechkin: 9
Bobby Hull: 7
Esposito: 6
Conacher: 5
Rocket Richard: 5
Gordie Howe: 5
Gretzky: 5

Most times top-3 in the league in goals
Gordie Howe: 12 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3)
Ovechkin: 11 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 3)
Bobby Hull: 10 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3)
Rocket Richard: 10 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3)
Esposito: 7 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2)
Conacher: 5 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1)
Gretzky: 5 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1)

I think if we are talking about best goal-scorer of all-time, Gretzky is on the outside looking in. Howe, Ovechkin, and Bobby Hull all have arguments for being the best goal-scorer of all-time. Gretzky's peak is right with them (as is Brett Hull's), but that's it.

I think it's a really bad take to say the 894 goal record "doesn't really matter". It 100% matters and is very significant. Some people go overboard and say "if he gets 894, he's automatically top 5 all time". Well - no. If he's not top 5 all-time when he hits 890 goals - scoring 5 more goals won't make him top 5. But it doesn't mean that the record itself wouldn't be extremely significant and special.

As to your analysis - you're missing Mario Lemieux. He's probably the best goal-scorer of all-time. You can probably argue for a few other names above him for "greatest" - once again injuries/missed games hurt Lemieux - but for "best" he's in a very, very short list of names to consider.

Also - Gretzky absolutely belongs in the conversation. Simply put:

- He has the record
- He has the best peak, easily so (unlike others with one great season, he has multiple)
- He even has the playoff goal record

To me the conversation of "best" goal-scorers include Lemieux, Gretzky, Hull sr and Ovechkin.
"Greatest" goal-scorer include probably the same 4 names, maybe a bit less so on Lemieux. Gretzky is easy to call "greatest" for the records he has + peak - but obviously Ovechkin will pass him if he hasn't already (and I think he already has).

Ovechkin's longevity/consistency is unmatched from a goal-scoring standpoint. Where I have a bit more issue with him is calling him the "best". I don't think his goal-scoring peak is #1. I don't even think his goal-scoring peak is top 5 (Gretzky/Lemieux/both Hulls above him - then he's in a group with a few others), certainly not for best season. But - maybe he still deserves to be called the best. Even though he may not have the single best goal-scoring season of all time, he sure as hell makes up for it with the rest of his goal-scoring resume.

It doesn't close any debate.

When Gretzky scored his 802nd goal (quite a small deal at the time... didn't merit major headlines), it didn't suddenly end all debate that he was a greater goal-scorer than Gordie Howe or Bobby Hull or...

As an Ovechkin fan, I would rather see him retire, say, next season with an unbroken string of 40-50 goal seasons than hang around until he's 40+ with 15-20 goal seasons just so he could reach 895.

Your post is quite ironic.

Gretzky is the one who "hung on" from a goal-scoring perspective, to surpass Howe and get to 894. He was the one scoring ~15-20 goals a season for his last few years. He 'compiled' his way to the record. And you know who else did that before him? Gordie Howe. Fantastic career/longevity, but he was scoring ~25-30 goals a season often in his later years, with also some better years.

Ovechkin so far is beating them both handily in terms of goals per age ratio. He's well on his way to score 50 again this season at age 36. And seeing him go so far this year, who knows when he'll slow down? Considering how consistent he's been his whole prime - if he ends his 5 year contract scoring closer to ~25-30 goals instead of 50, while still beating the record - he gets full merit from me and then some. He's the last player you could ever accuse of 'compiling'. He leads the league in goal-scoring every year, or just about.

Also - he wouldn't even need to hang around till 40+ to score ~15 per year to beat record at his current pace.

He has 12 goals this season in 15 games - let's say he scores 40 more, to finish the year at 882. Meaning he needs 112 more goals to beat record. 112 goals, in 4 years left of contract - while being the reigning rocket winner/50 goal-scorer (assuming he does so this year) - I'm starting to really, really like his odds, and he won't need those "15 goal seasons" to reach 895.

 

[The Panther]

Why should he retire next season?

I didn't say he should retire next season. I said, I would rather see him retire with less than 895 goals than see him play several years in a notably reduced role. If he doesn't reduce his scoring rate, I wouldn't want to see him retire.

 

[The Panther]

Your post is quite ironic.

Gretzky is the one who "hung on" from a goal-scoring perspective, to surpass Howe and get to 894. He was the one scoring ~15-20 goals a season for his last few years. He 'compiled' his way to the record. And you know who else did that before him? Gordie Howe. Fantastic career/longevity, but he was scoring ~25-30 goals a season often in his later years, with also some better years.

There's a lot of "incorrect" with your points here.

First of all, any general comparison of Gretzky and Ovechkin (two players with utterly different styles) has to take into account that Gretzky was never primarily a goal-scorer, while Ovechkin is. Therefore, Gretzky's goal-scoring falling off did not merit his retiring, as he was still the best playmaker / passer in the League until his final season. (To put this into perspective, Ovechkin has one scoring title in his career. Gretzky would have had at least 4 scoring titles if he had never scored a single goal in his career.)

Second, there is nothing ironic about my comment. I would have liked Gretzky to have retired earlier than he did. (Essentially, nothing he did after September 1991 added anything to his legacy, including scoring the 802 goal. His last 8 seasons, to me, are largely irrelevant, which just underscores my point about Ovechkin.)

Third, Gretzky was not "hanging on" as a goal-scorer when he broke the Howe record. The night he did it, he scored his 37th goal in his 73rd game, meaning he was pacing for a 43-goal season in his fifteenth (sixteenth pro) NHL season.

Fourth, your idea that Gordie Howe was hanging on late in his career is just wrong. In his penultimate season with Detroit, aged 41, he scored 31 goals in 76 games, which was fifteenth best in the NHL. Only in his final season in Detroit, aged 42, was he notably slowing down, and even then he was second on his team and pacing for 28 goals. (Let's ignore his final season in the NHL almost ten years later.)

 

[bobholly39]

There's a lot of "incorrect" with your points here.

First of all, any general comparison of Gretzky and Ovechkin (two players with utterly different styles) has to take into account that Gretzky was never primarily a goal-scorer, while Ovechkin is. Therefore, Gretzky's goal-scoring falling off did not merit his retiring, as he was still the best playmaker / passer in the League until his final season. (To put this into perspective, Ovechkin has one scoring title in his career. Gretzky would have had at least 4 scoring titles if he had never scored a single goal in his career.)

Second, there is nothing ironic about my comment. I would have liked Gretzky to have retired earlier than he did. (Essentially, nothing he did after September 1991 added anything to his legacy, including scoring the 802 goal. His last 8 seasons, to me, are largely irrelevant, which just underscores my point about Ovechkin.)

Third, Gretzky was not "hanging on" as a goal-scorer when he broke the Howe record. The night he did it, he scored his 37th goal in his 73rd game, meaning he was pacing for a 43-goal season in his fifteenth (sixteenth pro) NHL season.

Fourth, your idea that Gordie Howe was hanging on late in his career is just wrong. In his penultimate season with Detroit, aged 41, he scored 31 goals in 76 games, which was fifteenth best in the NHL. Only in his final season in Detroit, aged 42, was he notably slowing down, and even then he was second on his team and pacing for 28 goals. (Let's ignore his final season in the NHL almost ten years later.)

I specifically said hung on "from a goal-scoring perspective" only. Gretzky was still great overall late in his career. As for Howe - I just said he had some off-years from a goal-scoring perspective late in his career (~25-30), whereas Ovechkin has almost none of that minus a bizarre 2011, and injured last year.

The idea that Gretzky should have retired in 1991 is insane lol. I can't imagine wanting one of my favorite players to retire at the halfway mark of their careers.

As for Gretzky scoring his 37th goal of the year when he broke 802 - yes 38 goals that season is pretty good, but it's still only good for 24th overall in the league, at age 33. At age 33 Ovechkin won the rocket - he also won it at ages 32 and 34 in surrounding seasons.

 

[Voight]

Why should he retire next season? He just signed a five year contract. He is playing his best hockey in years. I can see a slow decline in his goal scoring, but he still will scoring 30-35 goals per season in two-three years. Injuries aside, of course.

He can probably score 25-30 a year just by parking himself in his office.

 

[BallardEra]

That's not going to happen..

He will be lucky to hit 750...

The way he plays hockey, well his body will soon start to slow down...

I expect him to have perhaps 3 more good seasons and then he will turn into Mike Richards...

Since this topic was created he has scored an additional 255 goals and is now at 754 career goals.

He now needs 140 more goals to hit 894.

I am not picking on you for this post as I feel the majority of people would have agreed with this stance.

Just interesting how things have played out so far.

 

[Dingo]

The teams (nhl?) made an on ice ceremony after the game.
https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600...DAILY-News-Wayne-Gretzky-Greatest-October.jpg


News paper made a souvenir edition for it:
https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600...ily-News-March-31-1994-The-Greatest-Wayne.jpg

ya, that goal was a HUGE deal. Anyone around at the time and being honest knows it.

 

[Dingo]

I specifically said hung on "from a goal-scoring perspective" only. Gretzky was still great overall late in his career. As for Howe - I just said he had some off-years from a goal-scoring perspective late in his career (~25-30), whereas Ovechkin has almost none of that minus a bizarre 2011, and injured last year.

The idea that Gretzky should have retired in 1991 is insane lol. I can't imagine wanting one of my favorite players to retire at the halfway mark of their careers.

As for Gretzky scoring his 37th goal of the year when he broke 802 - yes 38 goals that season is pretty good, but it's still only good for 24th overall in the league, at age 33. At age 33 Ovechkin won the rocket - he also won it at ages 32 and 34 in surrounding seasons.

was 2011 the Dale Hunter year? where he had him blocking shots on the pk?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Realistically he'd be there along time ago. 04-05 lockout. 12-13 lockout and all this covid bs

 

[Khomutov]

As a big Ovechkin fan, 4-5 years ago i thought he would score 730-750 in his career.

 

[BallardEra]

So how many goals does he end his career with?

 

[crobro]

900

 

[BallardEra]

900

He’s now at 853 with his age 39 season coming up.

I think he will need a 30+ goal season this year in order to get there next season during his age 40 season and the last year of his current contract.

 

[DitchMarner]

Sure, there are more meaningful things to hockey players' careers than accumulated career totals... but I still can't wait for the career goals record to fall. Casual fans and the hockey media are going to go absolutely crazy.

I'd say he's already cemented his status as the greatest goal scorer of all-time (best is more debatable), but for some people, he might need goal number 895 to clinch it.

I expect about 32 goals this season and expect him to break the record by December of 2025.

 

[BallardEra]

Sure, there are more meaningful things to hockey players' careers than accumulated career totals... but I still can't wait for the career goals record to fall. Casual fans and the hockey media are going to go absolutely crazy.

I'd say he's already cemented his status as the greatest goal scorer of all-time (best is more debatable), but for some people, he might need goal number 895 to clinch it.

I expect about 32 goals this season and expect him to break the record by December of 2025.

15 goals in his first 18 and at 868 but on hold for another month or so.

 

[BallardEra]

He needs 3 more goals to hit 400 from age 30 and on.

397 goals in 688 games. 47.3 goals over 82 games.

Howe - 415
Esposito - 409
Ovechkin - 397
Bucyk - 374
Selanne - 338
Brett Hull - 328
Dionne - 321
Messier - 314
Jagr - 306
Gartner - 304

 

[BallardEra]

From the start of careers until age 29 season:

For Gretzky:

706 goals in 895 games for 64.7 goals pace over 82 games


For Ovechkin:

475 goals in 760 games for 51.3 goals pace over 82 games


From age 30 and on until the end of his career, Gretzky scored 188 goals in 592 games.

26.0 goal pace over 82 games.


Since Ovechkin's 30th birthday, he's scored 397 goals in 689 games.

47.3 goal pace over 82 games.

 

[JianYang]

Looks like I didn't contribute to this thread when he scored 500, but I'm sure i would have thought that he would have slowed down alot from a goal scoring perspective by now.

This is incredible.