Alex Ovechkin - 500 Goals

[Sentinel]

I would include playoff goals for meaningful discussion. Ovy has a lot of ground to make up there.

 

[blogofmike]

that is outside the scope of adjusted points.

Gretzky in 86 and Lemieux in 89 had about the same number of "wins" worth of poings, in terms of how many goals it took to win a hockey game those seasons. The breakdown of PP to ES is a separate matter entirely, and can be broken down into adjusted figures as well.

Without doing so, it should be clear that 1986 Gretzky was clearly a better ES performer and Lemieux a better PP performer, which is pretty consistent with what we already know anyway...

Gretzky has the ES advantage, but Lemieux's PP points lead is based off of the PPO, moreso than being better at scoring on the PP. The difference is almost 2.5 PPO per game from 86 Edmonton's 295 PPO and 89 Pittsburgh's 491.

I would include playoff goals for meaningful discussion. Ovy has a lot of ground to make up there.

36 goals in 72 games is actually a pretty good pace.

 

[Rhiessan71]

36 goals in 72 games is actually a pretty good pace.

Yeah, I was going to say.

Since the LO, he's 12th in PO goal scoring with 30-50 less games played than anyone ahead of him and 3rd in GpG with 0.50 behind only Cammalleri and Pisani who have played less than half as many games, 32 and 27 played respectively.

 

[Big Phil]

Yes, I would believe those 8 names are the correct starting point in determining their greatness. I also think those numbers can be adjusted to reflect the number of times a player would have led had he played more games that season. For example, I'm comfortable in saying that had Ovechkin played more games in 2010, he would have led the league in goals because his GPG pace was comfortably higher than his competitors. He was only off by 1 goal in 9 less games for the league lead. This only applies in "slam dunk" cases.

I understand that injuries are a part of the game, and that perhaps injuries are a direct result of the style of play of the players, but I still think this adjustment can be taken into consideration, even if Crosby and Stamkos are officially in the record books over Ovechkin. I believe it's all part of the evaluation process in comparing the greats.

Fair points. With Lemieux you'd have to think 1987, 1993 and 2001 come to mind as years he probably leads the NHL in goals if not for injuries. 1994 is a bit of a toss up too, although he only played 22 games which is a lot different than playing 60-65.

I tend to be the type that gives players credit a little bit more for what they did do instead of just what they may or likely would have done. A true great won't just have 5 years and nothing else of note, they'll have 10. So you can't really penalize a guy who did it better for longer just because the other guy had a better GPG. I'd rather see the other guy with a full season. This is why Bure isn't on a list like this, too many injuries.

Charlie Conacher. Not as good as the ones you initially listed, but easily above Jagr and Lafleur, and I'd have him over Selanne, Bure, and Brett, as well.

Side note, as purely a goal scorer, I have no idea why you'd have Jagr over Selanne and Bure.

Oh my goodness! I actually wrote Charlie Gardiner. haha. Yes, Charlie Conacher of course. I don't have him among this group because despite leading the NHL in goals 5 times (impressive and in elite company) he doesn't have another elite goal scoring year. I think someone already said none in the top 10, and it's true. Plus his playoff goal scoring could probably be better too. Not bad, but others trump him here.

I have Jagr above at least Bure because while we'll agree Bure was a better GPG guy he only had 5 great years of goal scoring. Jagr had much more. Selanne did lead the NHL 3 times but other than 76 it wasn't by even much more than Jagr was getting. For example, he leads the NHL in 1999 with 47 and Jagr had 44. I don't know, either way, neither are good enough to be with Ovechkin's class.

 

[Hardyvan123]

36 goals in 72 games is actually a pretty good pace.

Ty for dismissing the myth that AO hasn't been a very good playoff goal scorer.

When it's all said and done it's going to be very difficult to say that any goal scorer was better at.scoring goals than AO as I think he will be elite long enough to have that distinction.

 

[Voight]

From Friedman --

Everybody’s got their favourite Alex Ovechkin stats. Here’s the wildest one, to me: There is only one player from his draft year within 300 goals of his 501. That’s Evgeni Malkin (287). The next closest is Andrew Ladd, with 195.

The second-place guy from his draft year is 306 scores away! It’s just obscene. By comparison, Eric Staal (320) leads Corey Perry by eight among 2003 selections and Kopitar trails Sidney Crosby (314) by 84 from 2005.

If you took his career total and put it up against every other round of that 2004 class, he’d outscore seven of them by himself.

The other crazy thing about Ovechkin is he’s third on the active list behind Jaromir Jagr and Jarome Iginla.

Look at the guys behind him, and how many goals they had when he started. Patrik Elias had 207 before Ovechkin played an NHL game. Marian Hossa had 188, Patrick Marleau 153, Lecavalier 146 and Shane Doan 142. He’s lapped them all.

 

[BenchBrawl]

From Friedman --

I don't think that's as amazing as other stats he has.It's not guaranteed there's any talented goalscorer in any draft year, nevermind one who can get close to one of the greatest of all-time.Of course Malkin is there, and there's a lot of difference, but Malkin's career started one year later, and he was much more injured than Ovechkin, not to mention inconsistant (though that's irrelevent).

Malkin should be closer in theory.But after that yeah, that was a weak draft for goalscorers.

 

[Voight]

I don't think that's as amazing as other stats he has.It's not guaranteed there's any talented goalscorer in any draft year, nevermind one who can get close to one of the greatest of all-time.Of course Malkin is there, and there's a lot of difference, but Malkin's career started one year later, and he was much more injured than Ovechkin, not to mention inconsistant (though that's irrelevent).

Malkin should be closer in theory.But after that yeah, that was a weak draft for goalscorers.

Hes also 3rd on the active list, and needs like 10 more goals to pass Iginla for the most since 2000. That is amazing.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Gretzky has the ES advantage, but Lemieux's PP points lead is based off of the PPO, moreso than being better at scoring on the PP. The difference is almost 2.5 PPO per game from 86 Edmonton's 295 PPO and 89 Pittsburgh's 491.

Edmonton was actually better on the power play in 1985-86 than Pittsburgh in 88-89:
26.44% vs. 24.24%

 

[Voight]

Gretzkynjust being humble but still.

http://www.csnmidatlantic.com/hocke...talk/gretzky-weighs-whether-ovi-can-catch-him

 

[txpd]

I don't think that's as amazing as other stats he has.It's not guaranteed there's any talented goalscorer in any draft year, nevermind one who can get close to one of the greatest of all-time.Of course Malkin is there, and there's a lot of difference, but Malkin's career started one year later, and he was much more injured than Ovechkin, not to mention inconsistant (though that's irrelevent).

Malkin should be closer in theory.But after that yeah, that was a weak draft for goalscorers.

well...isn't that part of the issue? he is arguably the biggest hitter of his era and he plays almost all the games every year. You would guess that Ovechkin plays longer than Malkin.

Also...where would Ov be had he not lost a season and a half to work stoppages?

 

[sandercohan78*]

He's a great goalscorer but IMO he's too lazy and too much of a clown to have a winning team built around him. Maybe he'll prove me wrong this year but I doubt it.

Selfish player all around, great one timer though.

 

[Sentinel]

He's a great goalscorer but IMO he's too lazy and too much of a clown to have a winning team built around him. Maybe he'll prove me wrong this year but I doubt it.

Selfish player all around, great one timer though.

What exactly makes him lazy?

 

[sandercohan78*]

What exactly makes him lazy?

I found those in literally 5 seconds lol

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'm sorry but the controller disconnect thing is so overblown. 4 Caps can't contain 3 Rangers. Had OV stopped the cross crease pass and the puck went back to the point everyone would complain about how he wasn't covering his man. He can't win

 

[sandercohan78*]

You say overblown, I see one of the most lazy hockey plays I've ever seen in my life.

 

[ResilientBeast]

You say overblown, I see one of the most lazy hockey plays I've ever seen in my life.

You might have an agenda then. He's where the winger should be out by the point. Because 4 of his teammates get caught on one side of the ice it's not his fault.

 

[blogofmike]

In the Rangers clip (the classic Xbox clip) he coasts for 70 feet and is gliding towards the slot and away from the point. It looks like he just takes his time going where he needs to go.

In the Dallas clip he recognizes that he should stop Whitney and then coasts again. His coach's reaction suggests he was supposed to collapse into the slot on his way back.

And no one gets mad at someone sprinting into the slot to defend a cross crease.

 

[sandercohan78*]

You might have an agenda then. He's where the winger should be out by the point. Because 4 of his teammates get caught on one side of the ice it's not his fault.

Agenda? I mean I don't like OV so I guess i am biased, I think he's overrated to hell.

At the same time I dislike P Kane way more then I dislike OV and i'd never call him overrated since he actually shows up when it matters.

 

[seventieslord]

In the Rangers clip (the classic Xbox clip) he coasts for 70 feet and is gliding towards the slot and away from the point. It looks like he just takes his time going where he needs to go.

In the Dallas clip he recognizes that he should stop Whitney and then coasts again. His coach's reaction suggests he was supposed to collapse into the slot on his way back.

And no one gets mad at someone sprinting into the slot to defend a cross crease.

Yeah, I don't see how anyone can watch these clips and defend his part in the goals against. It's a complete lack of caring that his team's about to allow a goal.

That said, it's not like these things happen to him every single game, and it's not like you don't sometimes see it happen to other players.

I've seen efforts to place Crosby in gifs like this. His defensive efforts aren't always impeccable, but these examples aren't nearly as egregious as the above two.

 

[BallardEra]

Great read.

 

[Varan]

This is a throwback

 

[Beau Knows]

Great read.

Very interesting read knowing now that he has such a great shot at 894.

 

[HF007]

Thread reminds me of when Brady won his 4th super bowl and there was still a debate between him and Montana, then eventually no debate with his 7 today. As time goes on there’s going to be less and less debate about the greatest goal scorer should he beat the record

numbers don’t lie

 

[jigglysquishy]

Thread reminds me of when Brady won his 4th super bowl and there was still a debate between him and Montana, then eventually no debate with his 7 today. As time goes on there’s going to be less and less debate about the greatest goal scorer should he beat the record

numbers don’t lie

I'm sure the 894 record matters for casual fans, but I think the HoH forum is smart enough to know that it doesn't really matter. Marleau beat Howe's game played record, but no one seriously thinks he had better longevity.

Gretzky's goal-scoring was relatively short, and occurred during the highest scoring period in post-consolidation history. A very high peak, but he quickly comes out of the top 3 goal scorers years after year.

Most times leading the league in goals
Ovechkin: 9
Bobby Hull: 7
Esposito: 6
Conacher: 5
Rocket Richard: 5
Gordie Howe: 5
Gretzky: 5

Most times top-3 in the league in goals
Gordie Howe: 12 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3)
Ovechkin: 11 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 3)
Bobby Hull: 10 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3)
Rocket Richard: 10 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3)
Esposito: 7 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2)
Conacher: 5 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1)
Gretzky: 5 (1, 1, 1, 1, 1)

I think if we are talking about best goal-scorer of all-time, Gretzky is on the outside looking in. Howe, Ovechkin, and Bobby Hull all have arguments for being the best goal-scorer of all-time. Gretzky's peak is right with them (as is Brett Hull's), but that's it.