GordonGecko
First Ping Pong Ball
I think that Gorton like any good GM will not make a move until someone better is available. I also think that when he makes up his mind to can AV, it'll be in the offseason
Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI
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SA16
Sixstring
I don't think you need someone better when the ship is sinking, but someone different. You slap the interim label on them and let them see if they can turn it around. I assumed that's one potential reason why they brought in Ruff.
Mac n Gs
Drury plz
- Jan 17, 2014
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I know you've said before that you'd opt for someone who's never coached in the NHL before, but who would you prefer if you had the choice?
SA16
Sixstring
No idea I'm not familiar enough with the AHL/Junior/College. Just not someone who has been hired/fired 100 times and is more of the same.
Phoicon
Take these broken wings and learn to fly again.
I think G is a student of the modern game and wants a new coaching staff that combines the influences of eurohockey, collegiate syatems and good ol’ NA hockey.
Sather, Vigneault and Ruff are all more old school types to different degrees. Which is not bad in itself. But.. The complete lack of a modern, systematic approach is evident they way we draft (drafting Gropp, Lakatos or generic two-way defensemen like Reunanen but getting gems like Saarela, Buch, Duclair when we try to step out of sterotypes), the way the team plays both defense and offense and our advanced statistics, which are one of the worst in the league and a spit in the face for fans who want to have a fun, young team that competes for wins.
Ruff can be excused because he at the moment clearly has a ceremonial role instead of a practical one in building up our defense, which we were promised (he may have been promised something else - I can’t imagine Ruff being so stupid to have such asystematic defense- which has the signature of Vigneault all over it).
The long and short of it is that Sather will not go and neither will Gorton. So that leaves AV. His time is up. I can’t imagine a scenario where he is still the HC come Draft Day with Gorton as a GM.
The only way AV stays as HC for next season is if G resigns and Sather becomes the GM again.
That is unlikely. So what will follow?
As a compromise between Gorton and Sather - perhaps Ruff will be the coach with an euro/college guy or two as an associate?
I imagine our scouting will change shortly after that change as well. This Draft Day may be Gordie’s final Orgy of Draft Picks where he gets 2-3 first rounders + 2-3 second rounders.
My bet is that huge changes are coming, between the season’s end and Draft Day. Can’t let Hank and the fans be without a signal.
Sather, Vigneault and Ruff are all more old school types to different degrees. Which is not bad in itself. But.. The complete lack of a modern, systematic approach is evident they way we draft (drafting Gropp, Lakatos or generic two-way defensemen like Reunanen but getting gems like Saarela, Buch, Duclair when we try to step out of sterotypes), the way the team plays both defense and offense and our advanced statistics, which are one of the worst in the league and a spit in the face for fans who want to have a fun, young team that competes for wins.
Ruff can be excused because he at the moment clearly has a ceremonial role instead of a practical one in building up our defense, which we were promised (he may have been promised something else - I can’t imagine Ruff being so stupid to have such asystematic defense- which has the signature of Vigneault all over it).
The long and short of it is that Sather will not go and neither will Gorton. So that leaves AV. His time is up. I can’t imagine a scenario where he is still the HC come Draft Day with Gorton as a GM.
The only way AV stays as HC for next season is if G resigns and Sather becomes the GM again.
That is unlikely. So what will follow?
As a compromise between Gorton and Sather - perhaps Ruff will be the coach with an euro/college guy or two as an associate?
I imagine our scouting will change shortly after that change as well. This Draft Day may be Gordie’s final Orgy of Draft Picks where he gets 2-3 first rounders + 2-3 second rounders.
My bet is that huge changes are coming, between the season’s end and Draft Day. Can’t let Hank and the fans be without a signal.
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Phoicon
Take these broken wings and learn to fly again.
One more thing.. a huge part of why I doubt AV-s professionalism is how badly we prepared for the season during the preseason and before.
We went hiking and camping in a time where every year, each off-season teams and players alike take two steps ahead. We simply stagnated in terms of prep and not of player selection. Not a single step taken forward.
I did not see the new physical fitness coach having any effect on adjusting how we prepared. I did not see any new strategic advantages introduced to our game.
This is oversight of a profundly ignorant HC..
.. or someone who simply does not want the team to succeed (because he got yelled at by Gorton?)
This is a season of stagnation for NYR on all levels. Not everything is rotten. But fruits are not ripening as they ought to.
That is why I am not mad at who got traded etc.. I am frustrated that AV got an extra season due to what I presume are intraorganisational politics, where Sather has a role to play and Gorton’s search for a better alternative as well.
AV should have been let go during 2017 draft, you can see him on the stage there looking very uncomfortable - I imagine due to getting an earful but still being kept on.
Oh well, whatever. Thus is life, time to use my mouth for eating potatoes and less about yapping about hockey.
We went hiking and camping in a time where every year, each off-season teams and players alike take two steps ahead. We simply stagnated in terms of prep and not of player selection. Not a single step taken forward.
I did not see the new physical fitness coach having any effect on adjusting how we prepared. I did not see any new strategic advantages introduced to our game.
This is oversight of a profundly ignorant HC..
.. or someone who simply does not want the team to succeed (because he got yelled at by Gorton?)
This is a season of stagnation for NYR on all levels. Not everything is rotten. But fruits are not ripening as they ought to.
That is why I am not mad at who got traded etc.. I am frustrated that AV got an extra season due to what I presume are intraorganisational politics, where Sather has a role to play and Gorton’s search for a better alternative as well.
AV should have been let go during 2017 draft, you can see him on the stage there looking very uncomfortable - I imagine due to getting an earful but still being kept on.
Oh well, whatever. Thus is life, time to use my mouth for eating potatoes and less about yapping about hockey.
Miamipuck
Al Swearengen
I am reserving judgement on Gorton because it's difficult to tell if his bad/terrible moves (Staal/Talbot/Hagelin where the Rangers received minimal returns) were the result of Sather's influence and not his or maybe AV's. I want more of a body of work to critique him.
That said, there's no way in hell I would call him a student of the modern game when the Rangers analytics department consists of some dude locked in his mother's basement eating cheeto's and watching reruns of Everybody Loves Raymond.
Rangers2319
Registered User
need to revive this thread, hopefully he is gone but hell probably get a pass bc of injuries, pretty sad
I'm past the point of expecting him to be fired at any point during the season. It clearly is not on the cards. He could give Mcleod 1st line minutes and not feel any heat.
Tippet, Sutter & Bylsma are the best available ones on the market with NHL experience.
Sutter- doesn't like the East coast as much since he's got some deep roots out west, and his system stifles offense. Henrik would love Sutter IMO... the system the Kings play this year is the Sutter system + the 4th man (Doughty) jumping in. If that system is implemented in NY, you'd see the breakdowns stop. Very goalie friendly D-Structure.
Bylsma- was riding Crosby's jock for years, and with weaker teams, he got lottery results. IMO he's nothing special.
Tippet- is another guy that can do a lot with a weaker roster, but he stifles youth... didn't do a great job in ARI with their kids, but he's another guy that can implement a tighter system.
Wildcards:
Sheldon Keefe- Considered an up and coming coach... but the Marlies always load up their farm. The last time a Marlie coach got this much hype it was Corsi King Dallas Eakins... who shanked it at the NHL.
Adam Oates- You'd get a top PP, and a lot of skill development with him. But both his coaching stints were constraining on the rosters. Not sure if he'd get another swing.
Todd McLellan- EDM could let him go alongside Chia this year.... he's got a great track record... but could be AV 2.0.
David Quinn- Lots of hockey smarts with this guy, and has been on some teams shortlist... but he's got a very comfortable post... the type that coaches don't give up.
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I would consider Sutter a need based upgrade off of AV. He's developed players too. Tippet isn't known for that. Bylsma has gotten out-coached in the past... not sure if he's worth it.
I like Jackson out of Union... but the system and emphasis on skating more than anything else. He's done wonders with tier 3 college kids. Pretty incredible job from a talent perspective... to win without a single upper echelon recruit.
Teams also really like the guy out of Denver, don't remember his name, but you'll see some more NHLers coming out of that program. He's another one like Quinn, those aren't posts you leave.
Sutter- doesn't like the East coast as much since he's got some deep roots out west, and his system stifles offense. Henrik would love Sutter IMO... the system the Kings play this year is the Sutter system + the 4th man (Doughty) jumping in. If that system is implemented in NY, you'd see the breakdowns stop. Very goalie friendly D-Structure.
Bylsma- was riding Crosby's jock for years, and with weaker teams, he got lottery results. IMO he's nothing special.
Tippet- is another guy that can do a lot with a weaker roster, but he stifles youth... didn't do a great job in ARI with their kids, but he's another guy that can implement a tighter system.
Wildcards:
Sheldon Keefe- Considered an up and coming coach... but the Marlies always load up their farm. The last time a Marlie coach got this much hype it was Corsi King Dallas Eakins... who shanked it at the NHL.
Adam Oates- You'd get a top PP, and a lot of skill development with him. But both his coaching stints were constraining on the rosters. Not sure if he'd get another swing.
Todd McLellan- EDM could let him go alongside Chia this year.... he's got a great track record... but could be AV 2.0.
David Quinn- Lots of hockey smarts with this guy, and has been on some teams shortlist... but he's got a very comfortable post... the type that coaches don't give up.
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I would consider Sutter a need based upgrade off of AV. He's developed players too. Tippet isn't known for that. Bylsma has gotten out-coached in the past... not sure if he's worth it.
I like Jackson out of Union... but the system and emphasis on skating more than anything else. He's done wonders with tier 3 college kids. Pretty incredible job from a talent perspective... to win without a single upper echelon recruit.
Teams also really like the guy out of Denver, don't remember his name, but you'll see some more NHLers coming out of that program. He's another one like Quinn, those aren't posts you leave.
I'm not a Corsi guy or anything like that, but if you want to use advanced stats to show how bad the d-zone coverage is under this system, then check this out.
So given the nature of the game, Corsi almost always ends up being a normalized curve when taking all teams into consideration, with near even being in the middle. That's just how the concept of this advanced stat breaks down. Plus on one side, minus on the other. It by no means is a reflection of wins/losses but when viewed in a totality of league performance, it shows you which teams run and gun (high volume for and against) versus which teams play tighter to the vest (Low volume for and against), and the spread that lies in between.
The Rangers current differential in those terms is already 26% worse than last year's with 82 games played versus the number of games they've played now, and are currently the worst in the league. (This is why you don't look at shot suppression for individual players).
Other teams who had runaway shit differences the last two years were BUF and ARI. After pre-season game 5 I said we're headed towards an abysmal season. Looked to be right around game 10... but then the greatness that is Lundqvist stole the show for several weeks. The Rangers are on pace to be ~80% of the way bad as BUF and ARI of the last two years... and get aren't bottom feeders yet....
That should tell you how good Lundqvist is and just how bad this system sucks.
Teams adapt. Look at Boucher... the league adapted to the 1-3-1 after not seeing it for a few years. Worked great last year, sucks this year.
So given the nature of the game, Corsi almost always ends up being a normalized curve when taking all teams into consideration, with near even being in the middle. That's just how the concept of this advanced stat breaks down. Plus on one side, minus on the other. It by no means is a reflection of wins/losses but when viewed in a totality of league performance, it shows you which teams run and gun (high volume for and against) versus which teams play tighter to the vest (Low volume for and against), and the spread that lies in between.
The Rangers current differential in those terms is already 26% worse than last year's with 82 games played versus the number of games they've played now, and are currently the worst in the league. (This is why you don't look at shot suppression for individual players).
Other teams who had runaway shit differences the last two years were BUF and ARI. After pre-season game 5 I said we're headed towards an abysmal season. Looked to be right around game 10... but then the greatness that is Lundqvist stole the show for several weeks. The Rangers are on pace to be ~80% of the way bad as BUF and ARI of the last two years... and get aren't bottom feeders yet....
That should tell you how good Lundqvist is and just how bad this system sucks.
Teams adapt. Look at Boucher... the league adapted to the 1-3-1 after not seeing it for a few years. Worked great last year, sucks this year.
Samuel Culper III
Mr. Woodhull...
AV just strikes me as very arrogant and unable to adapt, because adapting inherently means admitting a deficiency. He does not seem like a motivator at all, but being there in the locker room must also realize that his roster doesn’t really have many motivators on it. Whether it’s your style or not, you’ve got to realize that if none of your players are going to do it, as head coach it is literally your job to light a fire in them and get them motivated. Again, he is too arrogant to adapt even in that. My opinion, of course, but I have not listened to an AV interview or read an AV quote once these past three years where I didn’t just despise him. He always down plays any mistakes or responsibility and overstates how “we did good things” or “we accomplished the things we worked on in practice” (which is always vague and never seems to match the results he’s talking about). We’ll lose 5-1 and he’ll say “I think we did a lot of things good. We wanted to work on taking away time and space in the slot and limiting second chances and I think we improved on that we just didn’t get the bounces”. I am not a fan of AV.
haohmaru
boomshakalaka
Someday this thread will be Closed and that will be a good day indeed.
Old school or not, the fact that the team could not and would not match the intensity of the Preds is a very bad sign. And that's AV and his insistence that only pond hockey is played at the expense of a good ole' body check. Or any confrontation of any kind. The team simply ran and hid in corners the last game. At least that is what I saw. Very disheartening.
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
Not so fun fact: Derek Stepan has played more minutes than Buchnevich over the course of 16-17 and 17-18.
You know, the same Derek Stepan who isn't even on the f***ing Rangers.
Dan Girardi, who also isn't even on the Rangers, is about 75 minutes behind Buchnevich.
Awesome.
You know, the same Derek Stepan who isn't even on the f***ing Rangers.
Dan Girardi, who also isn't even on the Rangers, is about 75 minutes behind Buchnevich.
Awesome.
Jim Montgomery.
I remember Joe talked up him up a ton during one of the broadcasts this year, like more so than he should have and it was completely out of place.
Was that a plant? Probably not since Joe is not foreign to going off track, but it caught my attention.
He turned down an NHL coaching interview. I know hes well thought of, but it's hard to see a coach in his position just leave.
I'd love a Ralph Kruger, but hes onto bigger and better things.
haohmaru
boomshakalaka
No way. He is the ultimate tank commander.
This is his biggest issue in a neat little nutshell. He’s lost the team. Coaches have shelf lives. AVs shelf life has expired. Need a fiery paersonality
However I would let him finish out the season. Helps our draft order
East Coast Bias
Registered User
Yeah I would keep him to end the year, he's doing a great job being terrible.
Then fire him out of a cannon.
Then fire him out of a cannon.
silverfish
got perma'd
KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
Mac n Gs
Drury plz
- Jan 17, 2014
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Not a fan of his track record in the past, and I kinda want to wholesale clean out this coaching staff. Maybe he’s changed over time, but I doubt it
I also hate his stupid earpiece
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