Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

[Pavel Buchnevich]

My point is that they have better players in AHL in Graves, Pionk, DeAngelo.

Look how quickly DeAngelo has come up, and been pretty good. Smith, Staal, Holden make mistakes nearly every game, Skjei recently as well, yet somehow these guys aren't ready?

They aren't 18 year olds who were just drafted. DeAngelo has played half a season in the NHL before, Graves is in his third minor league season, Pionk is nearly 23 years old. If these guys aren't ready, they probably won't be ready at any point, with maybe the exception of Pionk who's in his first pro season, but he shouldn't be far off being NHL ready.

 

[Off Sides]

How does one look at the D and not think it's bad? Like both the system and the players?

If (anyone) were coach and they were leading by a goal, what pair would they put out there against the other teams best players to try to protect a lead? To me that is a roster issue as there is no good answer. Other than McD there is no good option.

Yet it does not excuse coaching, regardless of the very flawed pair(s) one would put out, them chasing opponents all over the place leaving prime scoring areas open is still a poor system. It's been that way too long now where that can all be on the players, all of them have and still do chase all over.

 

[Gordon Bombay]

If the roster is as flawed as a lot say then it's the coach's job to get the most out of it. IMO this system only hurts the lack of talent we have this year.

It's just like Torts all over. The roster has changed but the philosophy hasn't.

 

[True Blue]

It's just like Torts all over. The roster has changed but the philosophy hasn't.

Disagree with this. Torts drew blood from a stone with a far less talented team. Hate him or love him, he did more with far less.

 

[Gordon Bombay]

Disagree with this. Torts drew blood from a stone with a far less talented team. Hate him or love him, he did more with far less.

What I meant was when the roster became more skilled, we still employed the 6 goalie, dump and chase system. Part of the reason AV was brought in was to open the system up because Torts wouldn't. The roster is now less skilled and AV is still employing the same run and gun, man to man defense system that he could get away with when he had a more skilled roster.

 

[Nickmo82]

Look at Vegas - a team that is more than the sum of it's parts (to spout a cliche). It is possible to play good hockey with a less than ideal roster. When you consider that this group has had 3 years or whatever to learn AV's genius system, and Vegas has had a half season... it speaks volumes.

 

[Tawnos]

My point is that they have better players in AHL in Graves, Pionk, DeAngelo.

No I understand that and agree with it. But roster decisions aren’t always about “who is the best player?” Sometimes they’re about “who best fits this role?” Id rather have Kampfer in the 7D role than any player who still needs development.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

A lot of that could also be attributed to not enough depth on the blueline and Ryan McDonagh not being the same player he was a few years ago. Ulf Samuelsson, Jeff Beukeboom, and now Lindy Ruff couldn't get this defense in gear either. Maybe it's time to look at the ingredients.

Are you really going to ignore the constant here?

 

[ZiGOODejad]

This guy needs fired. His late game decisions are f***ing terrible! He's done. The systems a nightmare for our defense and can't adapt on in-game changes

 

[Nickmo82]

This guy needs fired. His late game decisions are ****ing terrible! He's done. The systems a nightmare for our defense and can't adapt on in-game changes

Deja vu x 1,000,000.

It's like Groundhog Day with this team. Nothing ever changes. Wake up and do the same unsuccessful shit again.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Deja vu x 1,000,000.

It's like Groundhog Day with this team. Nothing ever changes. Wake up and do the same unsuccessful **** again.

Some of you people need a reality check on what "unsuccessful" actually looks like. Bonus points if you are able to deduct that our players/depth have become worse over the last few seasons.

 

[LeetchisGod]

Whatever people think of his coaching acumen, AV has proven that he has an expiration date. His teams tend to get progressively worse the longer he is there. We are witnessing this first hand.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Are you really going to ignore the constant here?

Which constant? The head coach or the declining roster since 2015? People need to temper their expectations accordingly. AV's system is in line with where the league is/is heading. It worked pretty darn well in 2014/2015 with a better roster. Wanting him to tweak the defensive scheme/gameplan is a legitimate complaint - but realize you are demanding it because the players suck.

 

[Inferno]

I can't remember the last time the rangers had a first round draft pick that we didn't think was a reach....myself included.

Other than mcilrath they've all been good picks with gc in charge

 

[True Blue]

Some of you people need a reality check on what "unsuccessful" actually looks like.

The defense looks more and more unsuccessful each and every year. The goaltending has been successful. The offense seems to only find success in pond hockey. Hmm......

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The defense looks more and more unsuccessful each and every year. The goaltending has been successful. The offense seems to only find success in pond hockey. Hmm......

Lets just go back to the "6 goalie defense" from the Torts era. That was received really well around here. Im sure everyone will be fine with it.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I can't remember the last time the rangers had a first round draft pick that we didn't think was a reach....myself included.

Other than mcilrath they've all been good picks with gc in charge

That may be because, before last year, you might not remember the last time the Rangers had a 1st round pick period.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Which constant? The head coach or the declining roster since 2015? People need to temper their expectations accordingly. AV's system is in line with where the league is/is heading. It worked pretty darn well in 2014/2015 with a better roster. Wanting him to tweak the defensive scheme/gameplan is a legitimate complaint - but realize you are demanding it because the players suck.

Um, what?

No other team in the league employs the same system that AV uses. Not to mention what they did in 2014 is pretty different than what they're doing now.

Regardless of the declining talent which is a fair point, its up to the coach to adjust to his roster instead of the other way around.

Thats before getting to his mind numbingly stupid roster decisions and even worse in game choices. Hes a horrible coach who has more than worn out his welcome here.

 

[haveandare]

Lets just go back to the "6 goalie defense" from the Torts era. That was received really well around here. Im sure everyone will be fine with it.

Or maybe something between that and running around like idiots trying to follow every player in the zone step for step.

Almost every other team has found a nice medium between the two. If AV can't, they should find someone who can.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Um, what?

No other team in the league employs the same system that AV uses. Not to mention what they did in 2014 is pretty different than what they're doing now.

Regardless of the declining talent which is a fair point, its up to the coach to adjust to his roster instead of the other way around.

Thats before getting to his mind numbingly stupid roster decisions and even worse in game choices. Hes a horrible coach who has more than worn out his welcome here.

Please enlighten me about the bolded. Im very curious as to how things are different, because I see the same man to man scheme that is designed, when working properly, to spring the offense on the rush.

Theres plenty of arguments to be made about AV's shelf life and being stubborn with his changes when its become more and more of a mess each season. But don't sit here and act like the philosophy/defensive game plan has changed just because the results are worse in 2018 vs. 2014. He had better players who executed the game plan better.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Or maybe something between that and running around like idiots trying to follow every player in the zone step for step.

Almost every other team has found a nice medium between the two. If AV can't, they should find someone who can.

I can live with this compromise. I don't know why it hasn't happened other than perhaps worrying the offense will dry up as a result, or that he's simply an ideologue with this scheme.

 

[True Blue]

Lets just go back to the "6 goalie defense" from the Torts era. That was received really well around here. Im sure everyone will be fine with it.

I would say that at this point, giving up the opportunities that they are giving up, at the alarming rate that they are being given up at, combined with no offense, maybe that is exactly the system that needs to be had.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Please enlighten me about the bolded. Im very curious as to how things are different, because I see the same man to man scheme that is designed, when working properly, to spring the offense on the rush.

Theres plenty of arguments to be made about AV's shelf life and being stubborn with his changes when its become more and more of a mess each season. But don't sit here and act like the philosophy/defensive game plan has changed just because the results are worse in 2018 vs. 2014. He had better players who executed the game plan better.

There was more emphasis in forechecking and pressuring the opponent in the NZ. They also didn't back up and willingly give up the blue line so easily. That actually started to become a thing in 2015.

 

[True Blue]

Please enlighten me about the bolded. Im very curious as to how things are different, because I see the same man to man scheme that is designed, when working properly, to spring the offense on the rush.

Ahem...and needs world class goaltending in order not to get outscored.....ahem....

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

There was more emphasis in forechecking and pressuring the opponent in the NZ. They also didn't back up and willingly give up the blue line so easily. That actually started to become a thing in 2015.

Thats not a change in systems. That is quite clearly players unable to execute the system.

The argument that AV is too stubborn with/too married to his gameplan is a legitimate one. What you are doing is taking diminishing returns due to a diminishing roster and blaming that squarely on the coach. Its a crock of an argument.

I mean, honestly, if there was a change to the system, do you think it involved AV preaching not to forecheck or pressure in the neutral zone? Come on.