Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

[GoAwayPanarin]

Unless this goes completely south, I think he survives this. He JUST got his extension.

Panacea? Probably not. The best that I would hope for is someone who will put the players into the best position for success

They can go 0-fer the rest of October and I think he survives the month.

AV sucks and is arguably the worst coach with a job right now, but I think JG knows that he hasn't dealt him the best hand. He'll be gone by Thanksgiving though.

 

[Captain Lindy]

They can go 0-fer the rest of October and I think he survives the month.

AV sucks and is arguably the worst coach with a job right now, but I think JG knows that he hasn't dealt him the best hand. He'll be gone by Thanksgiving though.

I say gone by Halloween.

 

[Doctyl]

They can go 0-fer the rest of October and I think he survives the month.

AV sucks and is arguably the worst coach with a job right now, but I think JG knows that he hasn't dealt him the best hand. He'll be gone by Thanksgiving though.

Firmly disagree. Gorts has dealt AV a fine hand. Gorton fixed the defense this past offseason. Miller looks good at center. It’s AV’s fault that Kampfer, Staal, Holden and DD are getting the minutes that they are, not Gorton’s.

 

[True Blue]

Firmly disagree. Gorts has dealt AV a fine hand. Gorton fixed the defense this past offseason. Miller looks good at center. It’s AV’s fault that Kampfer, Staal, Holden and DD are getting the minutes that they are, not Gorton’s.

Is the roster flawed? Yes. Are players being put into positions for best chance for success? No. The question is which one weighs more. I think it is strategy and not dealing with what is happening on the ice.

 

[Griffinbw]

Is the roster flawed? Yes. Are players being put into positions for best chance for success? No. The question is which one weighs more. I think it is strategy and not dealing with what is happening on the ice.

Every single roster in existence is flawed. No such thing as a perfect team. Great coaches put bad teams in position to win

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Firmly disagree. Gorts has dealt AV a fine hand. Gorton fixed the defense this past offseason. Miller looks good at center. It’s AV’s fault that Kampfer, Staal, Holden and DD are getting the minutes that they are, not Gorton’s.

This roster is not very good. Even with a competent coach and a few guys over achieving this is a bubble wild card team at best.

Again they aren't 1-5 bad and I'm not saying that AV has done a great job, he clearly hasn't but JG had to have known that this was a legitimate possibility. My only hope is that he isn't/doesn't feel the need to be pressed into making a dumb move.

They traded away a gazillion draft picks and a few really good prospects over the last half decade. Most of those trades were fine since they were a legitimate contender but quick fixes right now are only going to set this team back.

Let the current group try to play their way out of it or embrace the suck - We'll be better for it in the long run.

 

[Levitate]

I'm not normally an AV hater but I'm certainly getting frustrated this year. He and Ruff don't seem to have any idea how to use the defense they have. There's no noticeable change here and they still run the same shitty style defensive system. The forwards are undisciplined and not ready for the start of the season. They seem to lack any real gameplan with the puck. That's on the coaches for not preparing this team to play. I'm tired of it. This team shouldn't still be looking like no one has any clue where their linemates are or what they should be doing with the puck. It's unacceptable at this point

 

[Edge]

Next two weeks will paint a clear picture. If they're as dismal as the first two weeks, AV is toast.

As for the next coach, he will do his share of things that drives people nuts.

I'm just not sure the net result will be there. Some guys will do better, some guys probably won't.

I'm actually not opposed to going a different direction. I just don't think as much of this ties to AV as some might.Though I do think AV deserves his share of the blame.

 

[Levitate]

Next two weeks will paint a clear picture. If they're as dismal as the first two weeks, AV is toast.

As for the next coach, he will do his share of things that drives people nuts.

I'm just not sure the net result will be there. Some guys will do better, some guys probably won't.

I'm actually not opposed to going a different direction. I just don't think as much of this ties to AV as some might.Though I do think AV deserves his share of the blame.

I dunno, what's the answer then? Are the players just that bad? I think a lot of them do have their flaws (though you could argue that maybe AV needed to coach the "pass at all opportunities and never shoot" out of Hayes and Miller) but IMO it still doesn't explain how disjointed and lost they all look almost from the start of the season. How come the forwards have no idea how to support the defense?

Also can't help but think that the defensive system is just dated at this point. The Rangers give up an abnormal amount of good shots and don't protect the front of their net well at all. Look at other teams play, even teams with bad defense. They all protect the net a lot better than the Rangers. Watch other teams backcheck, they stick on their guys and prevent passes from turning into shots. They protect the middle of the ice in front of their goalie.

The Rangers don't do that. The Rangers idea of backchecking is to coast along a step behind so that they're always always always out of position whenever someone magically finds that "covered" player in the slot. These are all things that coaches could be forcing the players to do better.

But it still chaps my ass that they talked up the whole "oh we took a look at all these new players and their abilities on defense and are finding a way to best use them" and we really just get the same old crap. If you can't figure out how to use the pieces you've been given then there's a problem.

 

[will1066]

I laughed at "chaps my ass"

 

[Matt Rentfree]

I dunno, what's the answer then? Are the players just that bad? I think a lot of them do have their flaws (though you could argue that maybe AV needed to coach the "pass at all opportunities and never shoot" out of Hayes and Miller) but IMO it still doesn't explain how disjointed and lost they all look almost from the start of the season. How come the forwards have no idea how to support the defense?

Also can't help but think that the defensive system is just dated at this point. The Rangers give up an abnormal amount of good shots and don't protect the front of their net well at all. Look at other teams play, even teams with bad defense. They all protect the net a lot better than the Rangers. Watch other teams backcheck, they stick on their guys and prevent passes from turning into shots. They protect the middle of the ice in front of their goalie.

The Rangers don't do that. The Rangers idea of backchecking is to coast along a step behind so that they're always always always out of position whenever someone magically finds that "covered" player in the slot. These are all things that coaches could be forcing the players to do better.

But it still chaps my ass that they talked up the whole "oh we took a look at all these new players and their abilities on defense and are finding a way to best use them" and we really just get the same old crap. If you can't figure out how to use the pieces you've been given then there's a problem.

The bolded is the essence of what is wrong with AV. Not that I think we should bring him back by any means, but when Torts took over, he inherited a team that was not particularly skilled. He made do with what he had and had a pretty successful run by utilizing a "6 goalie system". That became known as his system despite the fact that he had never coached like that before - he adapted his system to the talent he had available. Granted, prime Lundqvist helped those teams be as successful as they were, but Lundqvist was part of the team and Tortorella realized that the best chance for success was to rely on a phenomenal goaltender to win low scoring games. AV does the opposite - he will keep juggling lines and pairings to fit his system despite the fact that it clearly isn't working, refusing to adapt to the talent he has on hand.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Not for nothing, but AV is nothing compared to Torts when it comes to juggling lines. Torts would do this like every other game.

Now hes nothing compared to him as a coach either, but thats an entirely different conversation.

 

[Off Sides]

I think most of the players want to play "fun" hockey.

They want to cheat up ice for transition, stretch passes, they want to try to pinch, they want to pressure.

But in order for that to work everything has to be tape to tape, no turnovers, constant go, and they need to make good reads both going up ice and coming back.

Right now none of that is happening.

If the players want to go back to playing hockey that is not "fun", think protect the house, block everything, zone coverage, no cheating, chip, dump, change or chase, no cute stuff in the neutral zone, they should keep playing this way.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I think most of the players want to play "fun" hockey.

They want to cheat up ice for transition, stretch passes, they want to try to pinch, they want to pressure.

But in order for that to work everything has to be tape to tape, no turnovers, constant go, and they need to make good reads both going up ice and coming back.

Right now none of that is happening.

If the players want to go back to playing hockey that is not "fun", think protect the house, block everything, zone coverage, no cheating, chip, dump, change or chase, no cute stuff in the neutral zone, they should keep playing this way.

Thats what AV wants.

All of those things aren't even necessarily bad aside from perhaps cheating up ice (Nash and Grabner have been really dumb with this so far this year.)

The lack of pressure in all 3 zones has been a staple of the AV system. Its why they chase the game so much and why they give up so many high quality scoring chances. Its like trying to defend against a QB with a great offensive line, if your defense can't pressure him and he has all day in the pocket to complete a pass, eventually one of his receivers is going to get open.

And if you defense has Marc Staal on it, it's going to happen a lot.

 

[haveandare]

I dunno, what's the answer then? Are the players just that bad? I think a lot of them do have their flaws (though you could argue that maybe AV needed to coach the "pass at all opportunities and never shoot" out of Hayes and Miller) but IMO it still doesn't explain how disjointed and lost they all look almost from the start of the season. How come the forwards have no idea how to support the defense?

Also can't help but think that the defensive system is just dated at this point. The Rangers give up an abnormal amount of good shots and don't protect the front of their net well at all. Look at other teams play, even teams with bad defense. They all protect the net a lot better than the Rangers. Watch other teams backcheck, they stick on their guys and prevent passes from turning into shots. They protect the middle of the ice in front of their goalie.

The Rangers don't do that. The Rangers idea of backchecking is to coast along a step behind so that they're always always always out of position whenever someone magically finds that "covered" player in the slot. These are all things that coaches could be forcing the players to do better.

But it still chaps my ass that they talked up the whole "oh we took a look at all these new players and their abilities on defense and are finding a way to best use them" and we really just get the same old crap. If you can't figure out how to use the pieces you've been given then there's a problem.

I have a really hard time believing so many players of such different ages and stages in their careers, many of whom have been good for seasons and seasons, are all of a sudden terrible all together all at once all coordinated at the same exact time. It has to be a problem with a more overarching part of the team.

And your observations of the defense are right on. NYR play so unbelievably soft in their end. They don't need to be 6 goalies on ice again, but there are shades in between the two that most of the rest of the league manages to find and play at.

 

[will1066]

Pierre: "Ah-line, your team is down 4-0 heading into this second period. What can be done to slow down the other team?"

AV: "We just have to keep playing our game, Pierre. I thought we had some good looks in the first. We just need to play a fast game but be smarter with the puck, and we'll be ok."

Pierre: "Any tweaks or adjustments going into this period?"

AV [smiling]: "Oh, we talked to our guys about what we expect. We just need to keep at it."

 

[Off Sides]

Thats what AV wants.

All of those things aren't even necessarily bad aside from perhaps cheating up ice (Nash and Grabner have been really dumb with this so far this year.)

The lack of pressure in all 3 zones has been a staple of the AV system. Its why they chase the game so much and why they give up so many high quality scoring chances. Its like trying to defend against a QB with a great offensive line, if your defense can't pressure him and he has all day in the pocket to complete a pass, eventually one of his receivers is going to get open.

And if you defense has Marc Staal on it, it's going to happen a lot.

Those are not bad things when the players execute. When a wing is cheating and whoever has the puck turns it over in their own zone it's a bad thing. When a player goes for a pinch and the puck gets past them and a odd man comes from it. When the first or second pass out of the zone hits a player in the skates...

Playing the style they play carries a ton of individual player responsibility, if management figures they can not handle it at some point and puts in a coach who wants to go back towards basics, or stone age hockey as Zucc once put it, the team may defend better but everything that is fun about playing or watching that style likely goes away as the offense dwindles.

 

[Levitate]

Those are not bad things when the players execute. When a wing is cheating and whoever has the puck turns it over in their own zone it's a bad thing. When a player goes for a pinch and the puck gets past them and a odd man comes from it. When the first or second pass out of the zone hits a player in the skates...

Playing the style they play carries a ton of individual player responsibility, if management figures they can not handle it at some point and puts in a coach who wants to go back towards basics, or stone age hockey as Zucc once put it, the team may defend better but everything that is fun about playing or watching that style likely goes away as the offense dwindles.

Eh, I mean do players really need to be sprinting out of the zone as soon as they see the opposing team lose the puck for a split second? I've watched guys look at a loose puck 5 feet away and immediately fly the zone because they have a teammate 4 feet from the puck surrounded by opposing players.

And it still doesn't address the defensive shortcomings like the fact that they are apparently incapable of tying up a man on the back check

 

[Off Sides]

If this team had more than one or two players who could beat a goalie clean when in good shooting position, or win a bunch of offensive zone puck battles, or get in good position for rebounds and whatnot, yeah they probably do not need to be flying the zone so quickly, but as is most of their offense comes from plays off the rush.

As far as the back checking issues, as well as protecting the front of their net, I'd go with lack of commitment and personnel who are, to put it lightly, less than good there.

 

[Levitate]

If this team had more than one or two players who could beat a goalie clean when in good shooting position, or win a bunch of offensive zone puck battles, or get in good position for rebounds and whatnot, yeah they probably do not need to be flying the zone so quickly, but as is most of their offense comes from plays off the rush.

As far as the back checking issues, as well as protecting the front of their net, I'd go with lack of commitment and personnel who are, to put it lightly, less than good there.

Dunno, that all sounds like excuses to me. Backchecking and tying up your man isn't some magical skill that only a few special players in the NHL have. It's a coaching issue that they're not emphasizing enough

e: I'm not trying to say that on this is the perfect roster with no issues and the coaches are holding them back. I agree that there's a lot of stuff that's done to facilitate offense out of a team that lacks superstar scorers. But...there are a lot of holes in how this team plays that aren't completely explained by that, like their soft puck pressure, poor neutral zone play, lack of gameplan in the offensive zone half the time...

 

[Off Sides]

Who on this team under any coach has ever been considered a good back checker? Fast, maybe Zucc?

Zbad in Ottawa or here, no
Nash and Kreider have moments
Miller, Hayes?

On D Shattenkirk, ADA?

They built the roster to try to go up ice but did not put much thought into stopping the other team from countering and even though everyone laughed at Girardi and his gap control, he was back, Stepan and his lack of offense, he also was back even with his odd skating style.

 

[Levitate]

lol I see the crappiest players in the league on the worst teams in the league figure out that you can't stop back checking a stride behind your man and then be surprised when you can't actually cover him and he scores. Rangers do this all the time when covering a rush, when in their own zone defending, etc. This isn't voodoo, it's attention to detail.

 

[Mac n Gs]

It’s a lot easier to backcheck when you’re not overcommitted from forechecking and have to chase a guy 20 feet on the ice. Just like it’s a lot easier to move north-south with short breakout passes and coordinated skating rather than chipping it up the walls and hoping a forward can skate to it in time.

 

[LORDE]

We are quite possibly the easiest team in the league to defend against... not one player scares any other team. They probably circle Hank on the dry erase board still and say "THIS is the guy we have to worry about"

No one talks about how to stop our mediocre players.

 

[Off Sides]

Are we not saying the same thing, I mentioned lack of commitment in the first post you quoted, but it's also not like these players are or will ever be known as good defenders.