Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

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We discussed this at length. The system seems to be predicated on teams allowing the Rangers to play pond hockey and when that fails, the goalie needs to stand on his head.

Which is a perfectly valid system if your goalie is capable of putting up Vezina caliber seasons and Smythe caliber post-seasons. Not unlike the Lundqvist we had for years. Unfortunately, that Lundqvist isn't who we have now. Change is needed to address that issue systemically.
 
So you get to decide what's valid and what's not?

:help:

Has nothing to do with "validity." Buch couldn't play for 2 months because of some "unforseen core issue" that went from him being out for "2-3 weeks" to "he'll be ready when he's ready." He was injured around 11/6 and didn't skate until a month later because he wasn't up to speed physically. There's no myth in that and that certainly sounds like a body breaking down. Mika had a bone in his leg break. That doesn't have anything to do with not being able to handle the physicality/pace/whatever of the NHL.
 
Has nothing to do with "validity." Buch couldn't play for 2 months because of some "unforseen core issue" that went from him being out for "2-3 weeks" to "he'll be ready when he's ready." He was injured around 11/6 and didn't skate until a month later because he wasn't up to speed physically. There's no myth in that and that certainly sounds like a body breaking down. Mika had a bone in his leg break. That doesn't have anything to do with not being able to handle the physicality/pace/whatever of the NHL.

This is only my theory, but I didn't buy that he couldn't play. I think they took extra precaution because they weren't happy with his strength. I remember he had back spasms a few times despite playing in that stretch of games, and all of a sudden they claim he had a back injury where he needed to strengthen his core and couldn't play. I don't doubt that he probably did benefit strengthening his core, but not all rookies are NHL playing weight. Marner played this season at 170 pounds. I'm sure all the players that come into the league undersized from a weight standpoint take a physical beating, and have some ailments due to that. Not all those teams have the offensive depth that the Rangers had, and can handle a very good rookie with such kid gloves. A lot of teams need those players in their lineup to be able to make the playoffs.
 
To say the Rangers made up the core issues to protect Buch is kind of silly. 1.) The NHLPA wouldn't allow a team to shelve a guy like that.
2.) If he wasn't strong enough they could have easily sent him down for a few weeks and he can work on his strength in a lesser league.
3.) Have they done this before with any player, ever?

He was having back issues it could have been a direct result of poor core strength or maybe something else. It's not that big of a deal, most young players have issues in one way or another.

I think it's preposterous to say the Rangers made the issue up, it's not in their best interest to totally shelve a player like that. For F-sake, for weeks he wasn't even practicing. I don't get making theories up because he's your favorite player and it helps you sleep at night. He's going to wind up being a really good player, who cares if he had a little trouble as a rookie.
 
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To say the Rangers made up the core issues to protect Buch is kind of silly. 1.) The NHLPA wouldn't allow a team to shelve a guy like that.
2.) If he wasn't strong enough they could have easily sent him down for a few weeks and he can work on his strength in a lesser league.
3.) Have they done this before with any player, ever?

He was having back issues it could have been a direct result of poor core strength or maybe something else. It's not that big of a deal, most young players have issues in one way or another.

I think it's preposterous to say the Rangers made the issue up, it's not in their best interest to totally shelve a player like that. For F-sake, for weeks he wasn't even practicing. I don't get making theories up because he's your favorite player and it helps you sleep at night. He's going to wind up being a really good player, who cares if he had a little trouble as a rookie.

:laugh:

You seem mad, and please don't speak for how I form my opinions.

It just wasn't a very believable situation. If the Rangers wanted it to seem like this was such a serious injury, they shouldn't have fed right into conspiracy theories by all of a sudden deciding at one point that he had a long-term injury, despite him playing through the "initially reported" back spasms at first.

And this isn't specific to Buchnevich. Towards the end of the season, they rested a bunch of players who were carrying injuries. This situation might've been a longer injury, but its not uncommon that teams rest players with slight injuries who could actually play, if the team needed them to do so.
 
I totally believe that he could play, but the Rangers wanted to be a bit precautionary. After all, he is their best young promising forward. Management knows it. Coaches know it. We know it.

I think it's a fine line to walk in terms of being overly cautious or careless and potentially injuring a player. Both of these harm development.

I don't think we know enough to really judge how the Rangers handled Buch and his injury. Lots of discussions we can only speculate about.
 
:laugh:

You seem mad, and please don't speak for how I form my opinions.

It just wasn't a very believable situation. If the Rangers wanted it to seem like this was such a serious injury, they shouldn't have fed right into conspiracy theories by all of a sudden deciding at one point that he had a long-term injury, despite him playing through the "initially reported" back spasms at first.

And this isn't specific to Buchnevich. Towards the end of the season, they rested a bunch of players who were carrying injuries. This situation might've been a longer injury, but its not uncommon that teams rest players with slight injuries who could actually play, if the team needed them to do so.

Wrong , it was a beliedvable situation
 
I think its wrong to focus here on AV's treatment of Vesey being a problem. Vesey had a poor season by most reasonable standards. About a 9th forward in PPG, 9th forward in ice time per game, but then you gotta factor in that he played for a very good offensive team. He had the lowest P/60 of any of the Rangers forwards who played regularly in the top 9 at 5 on 5, and was even lower than 4th line Fast, and defenseman like Skjei and Clendening. Essentially, he was a drag on scoring efficiency. Who knows what his stats would've been playing on a team that doesn't score so many goals. His 5 on 5 P/60 was that of a 10th forward, and as I already mentioned, his got propped up because of the team he played for. He was basically a cross between a 3rd/4th liner offensively, and then defensively he was one of the worst on the team.

Still, I would've had him in the lineup. I think having a rookie who can learn on the job is more important than giving Grabner third line minutes or playing Glass. Yet, AV applied a completely different standard to Buchnevich, despite him actually thriving in a top 6 role. So lets not make this about Vesey. He should've had the role he did. I'd rather focus on AV not applying the same reasonably fair standard that he applied to Vesey, even if he applied the standard to Vesey for odd logic.

IMO this kind of thing goes back to perceived effort by the coaches and probably small things they teach in practice and how the players execute them on the ice. One thing I like about Vesey is that he can be quite good at anticipating passing lanes and jumping in to steal a puck, he can forecheck pretty well, he hustles around the ice looking to make things happen, and coaches eat that **** up. They love it. And it's not a bad thing, but it starts to become missing the forest for all the trees. Coaches see these smaller things and they love it, they see a guy executing some things that they're trying to hammer home, they think "this guy gets it" so they gloss over the fact that player might not actually be productive at all, or for all their hustle, not that good defensively.

They see another guy like Buchnevich who maybe doesn't forecheck as well, isn't flying all around the ice all the time, maybe isn't hitting all the little marks that the coaches want him to do, but who actually produces. But he's still marked as "learning and figuring it out" because he's not yet doing those things the other player is.

In a perfect world, a player does all the little things the coaches want as well as produces offensively, but like I said I think coaches sometimes miss the bigger picture when focusing on the small ****. Sometimes it's not a *bad* thing to be all hard on a player to tighten up their game and pay attention to the details, but you also can't really ignore production just because maybe a guy isn't playing the details perfect.

All that said, I think Buch will get a bigger role next year and is still a big part of the Rangers plans. For all the complaints about AV and young players, he's done a good job with the young guys the Rangers have brought in, at least in terms of giving them bigger roles and building them into the team. People bring up his tenure in Vancouver as how he's so terrible at developing young players (most of which weren't that good to begin with) but he's been fine with it in NY.

That's how you win these days. An aggressive forecheck and strong neutral zone scheme are paramount to succeeding. Pitt and Nashville both do this very well. Carolina is another team that plays a great system, but they've gotten simply awful goaltending. Stretching the ice shouldn't be your primary attack option since it's such a high risk play. You need control and structure with the puck to force the defensive team to try to apply pressure, which then allows you to find seams in their coverage. It's why cycling and movement in the offensive zone are so important. You need a balance of that and attacking off the rush.

Frustrating thing to me is that the Rangers do show at times that they can play the strong forecheck and cycle game, but then just...don't. Sometimes they come out flying and just wreck havoc on other teams trying to break the puck out. They use their speed and the D steps up and teams struggle against it. Then another game comes along and their forecheck is passive, guys do flybys instead of pressuring the puck, it drives me mad.
 
:laugh:

You seem mad, and please don't speak for how I form my opinions.

It just wasn't a very believable situation. If the Rangers wanted it to seem like this was such a serious injury, they shouldn't have fed right into conspiracy theories by all of a sudden deciding at one point that he had a long-term injury, despite him playing through the "initially reported" back spasms at first.

And this isn't specific to Buchnevich. Towards the end of the season, they rested a bunch of players who were carrying injuries. This situation might've been a longer injury, but its not uncommon that teams rest players with slight injuries who could actually play, if the team needed them to do so.

I am not mad I am just questioning the intelligence of your opinion because it was dumb. Thanks for clarifying why I wasn't wrong to do so.
 
IMO this kind of thing goes back to perceived effort by the coaches and probably small things they teach in practice and how the players execute them on the ice. One thing I like about Vesey is that he can be quite good at anticipating passing lanes and jumping in to steal a puck, he can forecheck pretty well, he hustles around the ice looking to make things happen, and coaches eat that **** up. They love it. And it's not a bad thing, but it starts to become missing the forest for all the trees. Coaches see these smaller things and they love it, they see a guy executing some things that they're trying to hammer home, they think "this guy gets it" so they gloss over the fact that player might not actually be productive at all, or for all their hustle, not that good defensively.

They see another guy like Buchnevich who maybe doesn't forecheck as well, isn't flying all around the ice all the time, maybe isn't hitting all the little marks that the coaches want him to do, but who actually produces. But he's still marked as "learning and figuring it out" because he's not yet doing those things the other player is.

In a perfect world, a player does all the little things the coaches want as well as produces offensively, but like I said I think coaches sometimes miss the bigger picture when focusing on the small ****. Sometimes it's not a *bad* thing to be all hard on a player to tighten up their game and pay attention to the details, but you also can't really ignore production just because maybe a guy isn't playing the details perfect.

All that said, I think Buch will get a bigger role next year and is still a big part of the Rangers plans. For all the complaints about AV and young players, he's done a good job with the young guys the Rangers have brought in, at least in terms of giving them bigger roles and building them into the team. People bring up his tenure in Vancouver as how he's so terrible at developing young players (most of which weren't that good to begin with) but he's been fine with it in NY.

I mostly agree, and brought up this point many times this season. I labeled it "visual intensity".

Vesey looks like he's giving 100% effort at all times, sometimes too much, and ends up looking like a chicken with his head cut off at times. Buchnevich is not as visually intense. Doesn't pursue as much in the defensive zone as Vesey, he plays more of a defensive game based on positioning and smarts. And I remember Vesey had a bunch of ill-advised fights and skirmishes. It makes him look very brave and courageous, a total team player. Meanwhile, Buchnevich had one fight when he was challenged by Versteeg, a sniper who is a bad fighter who has a history of challenging non-fighters. Not the type of player to take a penalty to rile up his team. Vesey also was very physical for a rookie, Buchnevich not so much.

So I think you are right about it. AV likes the visible little things with Vesey, doesn't like the visible little things with Buchnevich. I'd say thats been very consistent with how AV has dealt with other players.
 
IMO this kind of thing goes back to perceived effort by the coaches and probably small things they teach in practice and how the players execute them on the ice. One thing I like about Vesey is that he can be quite good at anticipating passing lanes and jumping in to steal a puck, he can forecheck pretty well, he hustles around the ice looking to make things happen, and coaches eat that **** up. They love it. And it's not a bad thing, but it starts to become missing the forest for all the trees. Coaches see these smaller things and they love it, they see a guy executing some things that they're trying to hammer home, they think "this guy gets it" so they gloss over the fact that player might not actually be productive at all, or for all their hustle, not that good defensively.

They see another guy like Buchnevich who maybe doesn't forecheck as well, isn't flying all around the ice all the time, maybe isn't hitting all the little marks that the coaches want him to do, but who actually produces. But he's still marked as "learning and figuring it out" because he's not yet doing those things the other player is.

In a perfect world, a player does all the little things the coaches want as well as produces offensively, but like I said I think coaches sometimes miss the bigger picture when focusing on the small ****. Sometimes it's not a *bad* thing to be all hard on a player to tighten up their game and pay attention to the details, but you also can't really ignore production just because maybe a guy isn't playing the details perfect.

All that said, I think Buch will get a bigger role next year and is still a big part of the Rangers plans. For all the complaints about AV and young players, he's done a good job with the young guys the Rangers have brought in, at least in terms of giving them bigger roles and building them into the team. People bring up his tenure in Vancouver as how he's so terrible at developing young players (most of which weren't that good to begin with) but he's been fine with it in NY.

Good sum up of the way AV works with this stuff. A lot of other coaches too. One thing I think I'd add though: it's not a bad theory that those "little details" are the kinds of things a coach wants to teach a young player. The rest is really going to come from talent and experience more than anything the coach can teach the player. I'm saying this about development, not system based issues. So, if a player exhibits those traits right off the bat and the coach doesn't feel like he has to teach the player that much, he's more likely to keep giving him ice to allow that experience to build up.

When a player doesn't exhibit those traits right off the bat, the coach is going to be more prone to taking the player aside in an attempt to help usher him along (cripes, idiom happy today I guess), because those are the things the coach feels like he can teach. That might include extra time in the pressbox.
 
Hi Alain,

You've now lost every excuse to run a trash defense and defensive system this year. If you actually change I will take back at least 50% of the bad I've said of you. But I'll believe it when I see it.

xoxo

ur friend Raspewtin

no but really though I hope he doesn't **** this up.
 
Hi Alain,

You've now lost every excuse to run a trash defense and defensive system this year. If you actually change I will take back at least 50% of the bad I've said of you. But I'll believe it when I see it.

xoxo

ur friend Raspewtin

no but really though I hope he doesn't **** this up.

incoming D-Pairs....

McDonagh - Staal
Holden - Smith
Skjei - Beregazlov
Shattenkirk as number 7


:cry:
 
Hi Alain,

You've now lost every excuse to run a trash defense and defensive system this year. If you actually change I will take back at least 50% of the bad I've said of you. But I'll believe it when I see it.

xoxo

ur friend Raspewtin

no but really though I hope he doesn't **** this up.

Not even AV could screw up this top 4 defensive pairing. Right? Right?
 
Not even AV could screw up this top 4 defensive pairing. Right? Right?

'member when Keith Yandle wouldn't play on the first power play unit?

giphy.gif
 
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incoming D-Pairs....

McDonagh - Staal
Holden - Smith
Skjei - Beregazlov
Shattenkirk as number 7


:cry:

I could easily see him starting Shattenkirk with Staal, in order to try and ignite Staal's game by giving him an elite puck-moving d-man as a partner, a la Stralman.

McDonagh - Smith
Staal - Shattenkirk
Skjei - Holden
DeAngelo

Could easily see that happening.

Holding out hope that Holden is moved, and we allow the rookies to battle for that 3RD spot. But, I don't really think there's any way that Staal isn't in the top-6 on October 5th.
 
'member when Keith Yandle wouldn't play on the first power play unit?

giphy.gif

Yup. I remember. This time, though, Gorton has him on a short leash regarding JG's "I expect him to play" comment after the signing. If AV tries to bury KS, AV will be out of job by Christmas.
 
Smith and DeAngelo scratched tonight. This guy is just a complete and utter moron that has no idea how to evaluate talent. Get him out of here.
 
At the end of the day AV is out there to win games, and so long as he keeps doing that, he isn't likely to go anywhere.

We can argue about which guys should be in, whether we can win more with certain guys or decisions over others, but the reality is that AV has a track record to draw from.

He is respected by the front office and, at least to this point, his players. His four year winning percentage with the team ranks right up there with the best, he's taken two teams to the cup finals and has missed the playoffs one time in the past 11 seasons.

Under his watch, more than a few players have blossomed into stars, including here in NY.

Say what we will, the reality is that he's been successful here. They're not going to fire him because a kid who just turned 18 is likely not going to stick for the whole season and because Smith is scratched.

Like any coach, there are things I disagree with - sometimes strongly. But some of the complaints are a little melodramatic.
 
He's an awful coach that's ridden the peak years of the two best goalies in the 00's to wins while having GMs in win now mode provide him with strong rosters...

He's REALLY bad at his job.

Tell me one thing he's good at? His talent evaluation is awful, his systems aren't good, his special teams systems aren't good, his match coaching is pretty much non existent or just bad. What is he good at?!
 
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At the end of the day AV is out there to win games, and so long as he keeps doing that, he isn't likely to go anywhere.

We can argue about which guys should be in, whether we can win more with certain guys or decisions over others, but the reality is that AV has a track record to draw from.

He is respected by the front office and, at least to this point, his players. His four year winning percentage with the team ranks right up there with the best, he's taken two teams to the cup finals and has missed the playoffs one time in the past 11 seasons.

Under his watch, more than a few players have blossomed into stars, including here in NY.

Say what we will, the reality is that he's been successful here. They're not going to fire him because a kid who just turned 18 is likely not going to stick for the whole season and because Smith is scratched.

Like any coach, there are things I disagree with - sometimes strongly. But some of the complaints are a little melodramatic.

He only seems to win games when his goalie stands on his head.

hes been gifted 2 generational level goalies.

He's a horrible but incredibly lucky coach.
 
Having generational goaltending and GMs in win now mode will get you lots of wins and some deep runs... A good coach would turn that into cups, AV is not a good coach, he's actually an awful coach.
 
Smith and ADA have had some bad turnovers. Everyone said so during those games we lost. Should the coach just ignore them?
 
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