Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

[Inferno]

They will definitely get their chance but coming off a horrible 2 games changes were expected. Smith who I like and have defended has looked bad for a month. Almost any coach in the same position would have made changes as well. You can count on that as well as more changes after future games we play horribly in. It is the norm.

Smith hasnt looked great..i'll grant you that.

But I'd still play DeAngelo over Kampfer.

theres so much crap going on here...Staal on the top pair? Why? You give McD and Shatty 2 games and youre done? Why?

theres so much stupidity in his decision making..and it showed..after his changes the Rangers were basically dominated from start to finish by the Habs...they won because of their goalie..plain and simple.

You can explain away his coaching decisions however you'd like...and I'd just come back and say, they were all wrong...as they usually are...because the results on ice showed...if wins and losses are all that matter..then just wait...Henrik isnt going to go into god-mode every game. The other team isnt going to get 2 goals waived off every game. Youre not going to get pucks going in off of their players every game.

Rangers were lucky as hell to win the last game..and id argue they played their worst game of the season in that one.

They couldnt do squat on the PK against the Leafs but they were better.

They are trending in the wrong direction..and i'd point straight at the coach. but again...its just a matter of time. Play dictates wins or losses in a large sample size..and right now, their play easily shows a whole lotta losses coming up...unless they change something. of course..with AV..i dont expect those changes to be the right ones..but I guess time will tell.

 

[Holocene]

They will definitely get their chance but coming off a horrible 2 games changes were expected. Smith who I like and have defended has looked bad for a month. Almost any coach in the same position would have made changes as well. You can count on that as well as more changes after future games we play horribly in. It is the norm.

If it was the norm we would have seen him sit Girardi or Staal at some point last year.

 

[Ori]

Lindy Ruff is not a good option - just throwing it out here.
But @NickyFotiu has some good points too, and maybe AV is not patience enough, I don`t know hard to explain sometimes.. But I agree that they both need to reflect for some games and learn about their mistakes and poor game performances - especially Smith since pre seaseon.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Smith hasnt looked great..i'll grant you that.

But I'd still play DeAngelo over Kampfer.

theres so much crap going on here...Staal on the top pair? Why? You give McD and Shatty 2 games and youre done? Why?

theres so much stupidity in his decision making..and it showed..after his changes the Rangers were basically dominated from start to finish by the Habs...they won because of their goalie..plain and simple.

You can explain away his coaching decisions however you'd like...and I'd just come back and say, they were all wrong...as they usually are...because the results on ice showed...if wins and losses are all that matter..then just wait...Henrik isnt going to go into god-mode every game. The other team isnt going to get 2 goals waived off every game. Youre not going to get pucks going in off of their players every game.

Rangers were lucky as hell to win the last game..and id argue they played their worst game of the season in that one.

They couldnt do squat on the PK against the Leafs but they were better.

They are trending in the wrong direction..and i'd point straight at the coach. but again...its just a matter of time. Play dictates wins or losses in a large sample size..and right now, their play easily shows a whole lotta losses coming up...unless they change something. of course..with AV..i dont expect those changes to be the right ones..but I guess time will tell.

They have been shaky for sure. That is what led to the benching of Smith and ADA. If the team continues to be shaky we will see more changes be it short term or long term. Nobody has defended Smith more than I have. Nobody was more excited to see ADA play more than I was but we had 2 very bad games defensively. They both had horrible turnovers that led to goals. Them sitting for a short time in that situation would not be surprising for any coach not just AV. Smith was benched in Detroit. ADA was benched in Arizona. These are issues that every team deals with at some point.

 

[East Coast Bias]

Smith and ADA have had some bad turnovers. Everyone said so during those games we lost. Should the coach just ignore them?

We all knew going in that ADA's game was a little rough. Holden in over him isn't crazy though I would love to just let ADA play out.

There is absolutely no argument to be made that has Smith sitting for Kampfer. (Edit: Injury is a good reason, outside of that)

 

[CasusBelli]

I'd rather have Jose Mourinho coach the team at this point. At least he knows defense -- even if his former players despise him. Oh look! I found the soccer equivalent of Torts!

 

[NickyFotiu]

If it was the norm we would have seen him sit Girardi or Staal at some point last year.

Girardi played the 5th most average dman minutes on the team last season then was cut. If we had some RH dmen last season things might have been different. Who are all the defensemen that should have played our right side last season?

Staal was was warned before our season even began and he has not been a huge problem in our first 3 games.

Every team benches some guys at points during the season.

 

[NickyFotiu]

We all knew going in that ADA's game was a little rough. Holden in over him isn't crazy though I would love to just let ADA play out.

There is absolutely no argument to be made that has Smith sitting for Kampfer. (Edit: Injury is a good reason, outside of that)

Do you think we should ignore how badly Smith played for a month and him being horrible in the first 2 games? Or send a clear message to him that he has to do better?

 

[Holocene]

Girardi played the 5th most average dman minutes on the team last season then was cut. If we had some RH dmen last season things might have been different. Who are all the defensemen that should have played our right side last season?

Staal was was warned before our season even began and he has not been a huge problem in our first 3 games.

Every team benches some guys at points during the season.

Gorton bought out Girardi, I'm not sure who the warning came from wrt Staal but I'm going to guess Gorton as well since AV loves Staal. I would have played Smith, Holden and Clendening over Girardi. No reason McD should have had to carry his corpse. We've seen AV give extra games to Raanta while Hank was struggling yet when it comes to defensemen he is always playing favorites with the worst ones we have.

 

[Off Sides]

If AV had not made so many questionable choices in the past, whether that is deferring to vets, or just doing other silly stuff, I think this move would not be looked at in the same light as those moves. And really some of those choices are not just on him, this team had big dumb contracts that were going to play, not because it's the right thing to do towards development or even winning but because that is how the NHL works even if it is counterproductive.

Right now by handedness they have three RD(one being Kampfer), they have five LD, it's going to be an issue all season because management does not see that as a big deal and coaching has to deal with it. They have one D who is a top pair player, two that are 2nd pair, four 3rd pair D, and one depth.

I hate to defend AV, but perhaps too many people had overly optimistic hopes for this D core.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Gorton bought out Girardi, I'm not sure who the warning came from wrt Staal but I'm going to guess Gorton as well since AV loves Staal. I would have played Smith, Holden and Clendening over Girardi. No reason McD should have had to carry his corpse. We've seen AV give extra games to Raanta while Hank was struggling yet when it comes to defensemen he is always playing favorites with the worst ones we have.

Gorton doesn't make player decisions in a vacuum. AV, Slats, and others all discuss these moves before they are made both in season and in the off-season as well. Smith was not with the team for most the season so you would have played Holden and Clendo on the right side. Who else before we got Smith near the TDL?

 

[East Coast Bias]

Do you think we should ignore how badly Smith played for a month and him being horrible in the first 2 games? Or send a clear message to him that he has to do better?

We're 3 games into the season and the team defense, from forwards to dmen to goaltending has been below par.

He might as well take the HFD team to the garden tonight if he wants to send a message to the proper recipients.

He's erratic with his message sending, and that's the issue. His messages are like a Girardi zone exit pass.

 

[McD37]

1. & 2. He was riding two generational goalies in their peak while having GM's in win now modes providing very good rosters. Any decent coach would have atleast one cup under those circumstances, so that's a weak argument at best.

3. How much did he do for developing them and how much was it just them being really talented?! Talent always prevails. AV probably didn't stunt them but i doubt he did much to develop them.

4. Weak argument, look at who wins Jack Adams, it's pretty much a PDO award.

Counter: Tell me one specific actual coaching thing, as in system, tactics, roster management etc that he does well.

Rangers won President Trophy with Henrik playing just 46 games that year. Also last year, Hank was hardly generational and Rangers still managed to get 100+ points. There is nothing wrong with having great players on your team. It is must to be successful in this league. And when you look at who is winning the Cup last years, it is not the teams with the best goaltenders.

I think it is both. These guys are really talented but Vigneault and coaching staff can get the best out of them IMO.

AV is good coach. I do not have knowledge regarding systems, but for example his teams are really good scoring-wise. He is also respected by his players. Look at Buch for example, he could have been angry on AV because he was HS many times after his injury last season. Nothing like that, he said that Vigneault was really helpful and supported him.

 

[Irishguy42]

I don't think AV is a great coach, but I don't think he's Bottom 10. He's middling, IMO.

 

[NickyFotiu]

We're 3 games into the season and the team defense, from forwards to dmen to goaltending has been below par.

He might as well take the HFD team to the garden tonight if he wants to send a message to the proper recipients.

He's erratic with his message sending, and that's the issue. His messages are like a Girardi zone exit pass.

I agree with you about the team in the first 3 games but coaches only have so much control. Some of the best coaches ever have gone through tough times. Guys like Smith Holden Clendo AAA and Kamper have all been benched by multiple coaches in the NHL. That is just how things go for guys at their current levels.

 

[Holocene]

Gorton doesn't make player decisions in a vacuum. AV, Slats, and others all discuss these moves before they are made both in season and in the off-season as well. Smith was not with the team for most the season so you would have played Holden and Clendo on the right side. Who else before we got Smith near the TDL?

I meant Smith after we acquired him. Before that? I would have played Girardi on the 3rd pairing where he belongs.

 

[True Blue]

If you can do a better job coaching then AV then go apply for the job.

That makes any criticism of him null and void. In which case, what is the purpose of a forum like this?

One does not need to be an NHL coach to know that when protecting a lead, your best players should be on the ice.

AV is a bonafide NHL coach. No one is arguing that. However, some of this decisions lead to questioning him. Such as maybe his system can only work if you have a top-5 NHL goalie playing.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I don't have a problem with sitting Smith as long as AV will do the same to Staal after his true self comes through.

That won't happen though.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I meant Smith after we acquired him. Before that? I would have played Girardi on the 3rd pairing where he belongs.

Didn't Girardi play the 5th most minutes per game of our dmen last season after Smith was brought in?

 

[NickyFotiu]

That makes any criticism of him null and void. In which case, what is the purpose of a forum like this?

One does not need to be an NHL coach to know that when protecting a lead, your best players should be on the ice.

AV is a bonafide NHL coach. No one is arguing that. However, some of this decisions lead to questioning him. Such as maybe his system can only work if you have a top-5 NHL goalie playing.

Maybe Pitts system only works with a Crosby. After all fans on this board used to bash Sullivan all the time when he was a Rangers coach. Maybe Chicagos system only works if you have a Kane and Toews?

Lundy has played for 3 NHL coaches but only made it to the cup finals under one. Luongo has played for many coaches but only made the cup final under one.

All coaches make mistakes but sometimes when I see people with no coaching experience act like they would be a better coach I can not help but shake my head. A .350 hitter in baseball might fail 65% of the time but that doesn't mean I know better. I see the fans know better syndrome in all sports by many fanbases. How many fans on this board know how to manage better than Joe Girardi?

 

[NickyFotiu]

By the way one day AV will be gone. Coaches are often hired to be fired but rest assured the next Rangers coach will not know as much as some fans on HF according to the fans.....

 

[DanielBrassard]

4.35M per season defenseman and Derek Stepan or Antti Raanta sitting out tonight. Boy that is a wonderful sight to see.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Didn't Girardi play the 5th most minutes per game of our dmen last season after Smith was brought in?

He played 219 minutes in the playoffs while Smith played 204, so no. Thats at Even Strength.

 

[NickyFotiu]

He played 219 minutes in the playoffs while Smith played 204, so no. Thats at Even Strength.

I was speaking about the regular season.

McD 24:21
Holden 20:31
Smith 20:10 (in 18 games as a Ranger)
Staal 19:11
Giradi 19:06


In 13 playoff games
Smith averaged 19:41
Girardi averaged 22:06

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

AV is way too stubborn. If he is set against something, he will "try it" for one game and then immediately yank it for an extended period i.e. Miller at C initially this year, puck moving D in lineup.

If he is biased for something he will give it the longest leash in the world despite mountains of contrary evidence.

This clown can't go soon enough. The first week or so of a season always seems to be more offensive than things ultimately settle into around the league. I highly doubt the Hawks are beating Pitt 10-1 in December. Holden-Kampfer are not the reason the Rangers shut out the Habs, just absurd.