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Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

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silverfish said:
Good read re: AV and Buchnevich. Still will never understand what AV was thinking with PB this year, especially considering his Vesey usage. But whatever.

http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2017/6/1/15723230/should-the-rangers-be-concerned-buchnevichs-development
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This article completely glossed over Buch's injury saga at the beginning of the season and the entire debacle with him undergoing core training development, etc. It also didn't show any of the bad defensive reads and plays Buch made, which again are completely understandable since he's a rookie.

IMO, yes the Buch situation could've been handled better, but there's also so much we don't know about how his training progressed, how bad the initial situation was, and how he was during practices and everything. I have an optimistic outlook since there's the clear opportunity for him to step up next season and solidify a top-6 role for himself, and I think the extra season training with Prentiss (assuming) will have him in better shape.
 
Bleed Ranger Blue said:
Genuinely curious - in what discernible way did Boucher out-coach AV?
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He certainly knew enough for 1) NOT to have Neil out there in the last minute of the game when protecting a lead & 2) to HAVE Karlson out there in the last minute of the game when protecting a lead.
 
True Blue said:
He certainly knew enough for 1) NOT to have Neil out there in the last minute of the game when protecting a lead & 2) to HAVE Karlson out there in the last minute of the game when protecting a lead.
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That may be the case but AV offsets his player deployment failings by his great ability to motivate the team a la Knute Rockne. The boys came out flying in game 6 with their season on the line.
 
True Blue said:
He certainly knew enough for 1) NOT to have Neil out there in the last minute of the game when protecting a lead & 2) to HAVE Karlson out there in the last minute of the game when protecting a lead.
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Its both funny and sad that you actually needed to type this explanation out.
 
Chief Ranger said:
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to who AV's picks as "his guys" and those he doesn't. At least I haven't figured that out yet.
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The article states very clearly how he picks them. Defensive first players or players who get a good defensive reputation like Fast, Glass, Girardi, Staal, Tanev, Hansen, Vesey are trusted pretty much completely right away. More offensively inclined players who are not noted for their defense, whether its bad or not, like Buchnevich, Miller, Hayes, Kreider, Hodson, Kassian, Clendening, Yandle have not earned AV's trust right away. The only strange situation I can remember that he didn't follow this was McIlrath, but AV might've thought he wasn't a good hockey player, and thus ignored the perception around him being a defensive defenseman.

At some point though, this is on the GM as much as the coach. I blame AV a lot for these types of decisions, but if a GM is condoning it, why does he escape blame?
 
Chief Ranger said:
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to who AV's picks as "his guys" and those he doesn't. At least I haven't figured that out yet.
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Well, in Buchnevich's case, it's pretty easy to figure it out. When you have a young rookie, who should be handled with care anyway, basically break down after 15 NHL games, I dont think you will find many NHL coaches that will run that horse for the rest of the season.
 
Safe to say in the end AV was justified in playing Vesey. He proved to be one of our most effective and consistent forwards in the playoffs. was even good in the ottawa series and that goal (which should have been a huge goal) which he scored was a well deserved one. He had few moments where he wasn't hustling and playing hard. Can't say that about a lot of other forwards on this team in the playoffs.
 
silverfish said:
I don't, but I also don't think that claiming Vesey didn't break down is a tough sell. What were his point totals & fancystats after the all-star break? Really bad.
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I'm curious to know if those stats were proportionate to the rookie average(proportionate to ice time) after the all star game?
 
I think its a myth that Buchnevich broke down.

What does breaking down entail? Getting injured?

Did Mika Zibanejad break down as well?
 
I think its wrong to focus here on AV's treatment of Vesey being a problem. Vesey had a poor season by most reasonable standards. About a 9th forward in PPG, 9th forward in ice time per game, but then you gotta factor in that he played for a very good offensive team. He had the lowest P/60 of any of the Rangers forwards who played regularly in the top 9 at 5 on 5, and was even lower than 4th line Fast, and defenseman like Skjei and Clendening. Essentially, he was a drag on scoring efficiency. Who knows what his stats would've been playing on a team that doesn't score so many goals. His 5 on 5 P/60 was that of a 10th forward, and as I already mentioned, his got propped up because of the team he played for. He was basically a cross between a 3rd/4th liner offensively, and then defensively he was one of the worst on the team.

Still, I would've had him in the lineup. I think having a rookie who can learn on the job is more important than giving Grabner third line minutes or playing Glass. Yet, AV applied a completely different standard to Buchnevich, despite him actually thriving in a top 6 role. So lets not make this about Vesey. He should've had the role he did. I'd rather focus on AV not applying the same reasonably fair standard that he applied to Vesey, even if he applied the standard to Vesey for odd logic.
 
Bluenote13 said:
No, not when the dynamics of the situation are changed from pre all star game.
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I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Are you saying the game changes pre and post all star game? Because Vesey clearly was not the same player in the 2nd half as he was the 1st half both on the score sheet and in terms of play. A lot of that could fall under the "he's a rookie playing an 82 game schedule after playing a much shorter schedule in NCAA" which would be the definition of "breaking down" IMO.
 
Pavel Buchnevich said:
I think its wrong to focus here on AV's treatment of Vesey being a problem. Vesey had a poor season by most reasonable standards. About a 9th forward in PPG, 9th forward in ice time per game, but then you gotta factor in that he played for a very good offensive team. He had the lowest P/60 of any of the Rangers forwards who played regularly in the top 9 at 5 on 5, and was even lower than 4th line Fast, and defenseman like Skjei and Clendening. Essentially, he was a drag on scoring efficiency. Who knows what his stats would've been playing on a team that doesn't score so many goals. His 5 on 5 P/60 was that of a 10th forward, and as I already mentioned, his got propped up because of the team he played for. He was basically a cross between a 3rd/4th liner offensively, and then defensively he was one of the worst on the team.

Still, I would've had him in the lineup. I think having a rookie who can learn on the job is more important than giving Grabner third line minutes or playing Glass. Yet, AV applied a completely different standard to Buchnevich, despite him actually thriving in a top 6 role. So lets not make this about Vesey. He should've had the role he did. I'd rather focus on AV not applying the same reasonably fair standard that he applied to Vesey, even if he applied the standard to Vesey for odd logic.
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Yeah, not sure why he get top line minutes - AV playing favorites for sure. Hopefully Buch will get more minutes next seasons, and he should be stronger physical as well.
 
ponytrekker said:
Maybe it's AV's system that's the problem. Dated. Gimme 2-1-2, zone D any day.

Sutter anyone?
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We discussed this at length. The system seems to be predicated on teams allowing the Rangers to play pond hockey and when that fails, the goalie needs to stand on his head. They system would be fine if AV knew how to run it with tweaks. Like when the neutral zone is clogged up. Or when it is necessary to retrieve a puck from a corner. But he either only knows one way or simply refuses to believe that something is not working.

I would take Sutter at any time.
 
That's how you win these days. An aggressive forecheck and strong neutral zone scheme are paramount to succeeding. Pitt and Nashville both do this very well. Carolina is another team that plays a great system, but they've gotten simply awful goaltending. Stretching the ice shouldn't be your primary attack option since it's such a high risk play. You need control and structure with the puck to force the defensive team to try to apply pressure, which then allows you to find seams in their coverage. It's why cycling and movement in the offensive zone are so important. You need a balance of that and attacking off the rush.
 
Pavel Buchnevich said:
I think its a myth that Buchnevich broke down.

What does breaking down entail? Getting injured?

Did Mika Zibanejad break down as well?
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Missing a couple months because your core isn't strong enough is a pretty good definition of breaking down.

Running into the boards and snapping your leg in half is not.
 
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