Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Genuinely curious: In what discernible way did AV out-coach Julien?

Genuinely curious - in what discernible way did Boucher out-coach AV? Outside of game 6, the Rangers led for the vast majority of the series. Did Boucher finally decide to coach in the last 5 minutes of these games?

On that subject, it seems like people want the coach to play 2-3 defensemen in the final 10 minutes of a game, which simply isn't possible. So, whether we blow a lead with 1 minute left or 5 minutes left, the reaction is "how the hell could Staal be out there?!!!?" People who complain about that need to get a clue.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Genuinely curious - in what discernible way did Boucher out-coach AV? Outside of game 6, the Rangers led for the vast majority of the series. Did Boucher finally decide to coach in the last 5 minutes of these games?

On that subject, it seems like people want the coach to play 2-3 defensemen in the final 10 minutes of a game, which simply isn't possible. So, whether we blow a lead with 1 minute left or 5 minutes left, the reaction is "how the hell could Staal be out there?!!!?" People who complain about that need to get a clue.

Blackhawks faired just fine when they would essentially play 3 defensemen for 75% of the game

Edit: Also, AV was just fine going down to 4 defensemen in the last 10 minutes

 

[True Blue]

I am addressing the pretty clear narrative that, without AV, this team would waltz it's way into the finals. Its hogwash.

No one said that. But he bears a good amount of responsibility for questionable personnel and strategy choices.

The team blew 3 games in the playoffs with under 2 minutes to go. It is a little odd that you would lay that all at the feet of the players and turn a blind eye to the decision making that led to that.

 

[Thirty One]

Genuinely curious - in what discernible way did Boucher out-coach AV? Outside of game 6, the Rangers led for the vast majority of the series. Did Boucher finally decide to coach in the last 5 minutes of these games?

On that subject, it seems like people want the coach to play 2-3 defensemen in the final 10 minutes of a game, which simply isn't possible. So, whether we blow a lead with 1 minute left or 5 minutes left, the reaction is "how the hell could Staal be out there?!!!?" People who complain about that need to get a clue.

This is an odd point. Sure you can't go to 2 or 3 defensemen for the final stretch. I didn't see anyone calling for it, and you wouldn't need to to take Staal out of the rotation. You certainly can go with 4, as AV showed in Game 2.

 

[True Blue]

It wouldn't really matter who replaced AV, there will ALWAYS be X amount of people that will complain about our coach.......Even if it is Emille Francis, Scotty Bowman, or Al Arbour......Wouldn't matter, people will find fault, if the end result is anything less than a Cup.......And even then, complaining will happen even when a Cup is in the Cupboard. Just saying.

Do you think that AV's overall coaching level was beyond reproach this playoffs?

 

[True Blue]

On that subject, it seems like people want the coach to play 2-3 defensemen in the final 10 minutes of a game, which simply isn't possible. So, whether we blow a lead with 1 minute left or 5 minutes left, the reaction is "how the hell could Staal be out there?!!!?" People who complain about that need to get a clue.

Getting a clue about wondering why the team's best performing defensemen are out there in the waning minutes of a game where you are trying to protect the lead? Umm...ok.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Genuinely curious - in what discernible way did Boucher out-coach AV? Outside of game 6, the Rangers led for the vast majority of the series. Did Boucher finally decide to coach in the last 5 minutes of these games?

On that subject, it seems like people want the coach to play 2-3 defensemen in the final 10 minutes of a game, which simply isn't possible. So, whether we blow a lead with 1 minute left or 5 minutes left, the reaction is "how the hell could Staal be out there?!!!?" People who complain about that need to get a clue.

Who was saying the Rangers needed to go 3 D for the last 10 minutes?

Since you seem to want to defend AV at all costs, can you explain to me why it was a good decision by AV to have Tanner Glass as one of the 3 forwards on the ice defending a 1 goal lead with under 2 minutes left and the Ottawa goalie pulled in the pivotal game 5? if The right decision is to have just have ANY FORWARD out instead of Glass. If Nash, Grabner, Fast, Hayes, Lindberg ...even Vesey or Miller or Zibby any of them were out there they would've blocked that cross ice pass from EK that lead to the goal. That goal is completely on Glass who was covering nobody and rolled a red carpet out for EK to pass it right by him. I've seen Fast deflect that pass out of the zone or over the glass a million times. Glass was in the AHL all season why the hell is he trusted to be out there with a 1 goal lead and 2 minutes left.

That is an objectively bad decision and go watch the replay. Glass is near nobody and not in a passing lane, if he is in proper position, that pass doesn't even get attempted and if it does, he blocks it. Fast, Nash, Grabner, Lindberg, Hayes, Zib are all good defensive forwards in our zone and were used all season to PK and defend leads. Now in the biggest game of the season with the other team's goalie pulled and a 1 goal lead, TANNER GLASS is out there over all of them?

How is that decision by AV even close to defensible? Glass had a few good games which was great, but good games in his limited 4th line role. There was no reason for him to be out there in that situation and especially not over awesome defensive forwards like Fast, Nash and Grabner.

 

[Thirty One]

Who was saying the Rangers needed to go 3 D for the last 10 minutes?

Since you seem to want to defend AV at all costs, can you explain to me why it was a good decision by AV to have Tanner Glass as one of the 3 forwards on the ice defending a 1 goal lead with under 2 minutes left and the Ottawa goalie pulled in the pivotal game 5? if The right decision is to have just have ANY FORWARD out instead of Glass. If Nash, Grabner, Fast, Hayes, Lindberg ...even Vesey or Miller or Zibby any of them were out there they would've blocked that cross ice pass from EK that lead to the goal. That goal is completely on Glass who was covering nobody and rolled a red carpet out for EK to pass it right by him. I've seen Fast deflect that pass out of the zone or over the glass a million times. Glass was in the AHL all season why the hell is he trusted to be out there with a 1 goal lead and 2 minutes left.

That is an objectively bad decision and go watch the replay. Glass is near nobody and not in a passing lane, if he is in proper position, that pass doesn't even get attempted and if it does, he blocks it. Fast, Nash, Grabner, Lindberg, Hayes, Zib are all good defensive forwards in our zone and were used all season to PK and defend leads. Now in the biggest game of the season with the other team's goalie pulled and a 1 goal lead, TANNER GLASS is out there over all of them?

How is that decision by AV even close to defensible? Glass had a few good games which was great, but good games in his limited 4th line role. There was no reason for him to be out there in that situation and especially not over awesome defensive forwards like Fast, Nash and Grabner.

Good coaches put players in situations brand new to them and ride that beginner's luck.

 

[Blueshirts777]

And the sad reality is as flawed a team as we were, with expectations accordingly modest, we could have won the Cup this year because of the way the rest of the league played out.

AV must go!

I don't agree, if we are going to make statements about how bad the Rangers D is and how we don't have consistent offensive talent, we cannot also say we would have easily beat the Penguins with Crosby, Malkin and Kessel.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Didn't Boucher also double shift Karlsson in the last 5 minutes of Game 6? I remember seeing he had a shift over a minute and a half and then was on again for the last 2.5 minutes

 

[orland]

I don't agree, if we are going to make statements about how bad the Rangers D is and how we don't have consistent offensive talent, we cannot also say we would have easily beat the Penguins with Crosby, Malkin and Kessel.

Never said we would easily beat the Penguins. In fact I believe the Pens, with all their injuries, probably would have beaten the Rangers because of their fast and talented forwards against Girardi & Staal. However, we certainly would have had at least a "punchers chance" to beat the Pens given the injuries to Letang, Shulz, Daley (back now), Hornquist, Rust, etc. The Pens are basically a dangerous but wounded animal now.

And we deserved the chance to try. Took some real AV blunders to allow the mediocre Sens to get past us. I can't recall another game like game 2 of the Sens series where a coach's bad decisions so clearly led to a loss. And I still can't believe that we came out so flat in game 6 of the series with our season on the line. For all his failings that would not have happened under Torts. AV's corporate management style, relying on his trusted veteran group to distill his wisdom to the troops, does not work in an emotional sport like hockey.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Never said we would easily beat the Penguins. In fact I believe the Pens, with all their injuries, probably would have beaten the Rangers because of their fast and talented forwards against Girardi & Staal. However, we certainly would have had at least a "punchers chance" to beat the Pens given the injuries to Letang, Shulz, Daley (back now), Hornquist, Rust, etc. The Pens are basically a dangerous but wounded animal now.

And we deserved the chance to try. Took some real AV blunders to allow the mediocre Sens to get past us. I can't recall another game like game 2 of the Sens series where a coach's bad decisions so clearly led to a loss. And I still can't believe that we came out so flat in game 6 of the series with our season on the line. For all his failings that would not have happened under Torts. AV's corporate management style, relying on his trusted veteran group to distill his wisdom to the troops, does not work in an emotional sport like hockey.

If Ottawa beats Pittsburgh tonight, will you continue referring to them as the "mediocre Sens?"

 

[McRanger]

If Ottawa beats Pittsburgh tonight, will you continue referring to them as the "mediocre Sens?"

If they lose are they mediocre?

How about "hot but mediocre Sens"?

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

If they lose are they mediocre?

How about "hot but mediocre Sens"?

Yeah. Sure. Whatever.

But what about the mediocre Rangers? Some people need really need to re-assess how good this team really was.

 

[silverfish]

Yeah. Sure. Whatever.

But what about the mediocre Rangers? Some people need really need to re-assess how good this team really was.

Forwards were great in the regular season, average on the playoffs.
Goalies were good in the regular season, great in the playoffs.
Defense is lol.

 

[orland]

If Ottawa beats Pittsburgh tonight, will you continue referring to them as the "mediocre Sens?"

If Ottawa beats the banged up Pens I will be even more upset. The Sens coach has been amazing - his defensive scheme did the Rangers in, has proven pretty difficult for the Pens and he always got the Sens to come back hard from every bad defeat; something you know who couldn't do.

The Sens are similar to the Rangers. A lot of good forwards but no great ones. One really good dman (normally much better than McD but not now as he is playing hurt) and a good goalie, not as good as the King although he outplayed him in round 2. I don't think they have a second dman nearly as good as Skjei played and I think our forwards are a little bigger, faster and more talented when playing well.

I really think it came down to coaching. It is no coincidence that 3 of the final 4 teams were coached by former Cup winning coaches. When the skill level is not that different coaching can be the difference. Look what Sullivan did last year - got rid of a bunch of 2nd tier veterans (dman and grinders) and replaced with young talent he coached in their minor league system. He did exactly what we need to do- get rid of the veteran dead wood that AV finds so alluring. AV said this group needed one more bite at the apple when it was time to move on. With only a few sensible tweaks we could still be playing with a shot at the Cup!

Time to cut the AV cord and move forward.

 

[NYRFAN218]

I don't think Guy Boucher out coached AV in the Rangers series. The Rangers tore up their 1-3-1 for large portions of that series. AV outcoached himself if anything with his player deployment IMO. That's the one thing Guy Boucher did right. He leaned on his top guys heavily (Karlsson playing 30 mins a game) and knew when to not play the ****** players (Neil playing 2 minutes though he shouldn't have been playing at all).

 

[ponytrekker]

Blackhawks faired just fine when they would essentially play 3 defensemen for 75% of the game

This. Play. The. Good. Guys.

 

[ponytrekker]

Didn't Boucher also double shift Karlsson in the last 5 minutes of Game 6? I remember seeing he had a shift over a minute and a half and then was on again for the last 2.5 minutes

Karlsson played like 6:30 of the last 8:00. #winning.

 

[ponytrekker]

Who was saying the Rangers needed to go 3 D for the last 10 minutes?

Since you seem to want to defend AV at all costs, can you explain to me why it was a good decision by AV to have Tanner Glass as one of the 3 forwards on the ice defending a 1 goal lead with under 2 minutes left and the Ottawa goalie pulled in the pivotal game 5? if The right decision is to have just have ANY FORWARD out instead of Glass. If Nash, Grabner, Fast, Hayes, Lindberg ...even Vesey or Miller or Zibby any of them were out there they would've blocked that cross ice pass from EK that lead to the goal. That goal is completely on Glass who was covering nobody and rolled a red carpet out for EK to pass it right by him. I've seen Fast deflect that pass out of the zone or over the glass a million times. Glass was in the AHL all season why the hell is he trusted to be out there with a 1 goal lead and 2 minutes left.

That is an objectively bad decision and go watch the replay. Glass is near nobody and not in a passing lane, if he is in proper position, that pass doesn't even get attempted and if it does, he blocks it. Fast, Nash, Grabner, Lindberg, Hayes, Zib are all good defensive forwards in our zone and were used all season to PK and defend leads. Now in the biggest game of the season with the other team's goalie pulled and a 1 goal lead, TANNER GLASS is out there over all of them?

How is that decision by AV even close to defensible? Glass had a few good games which was great, but good games in his limited 4th line role. There was no reason for him to be out there in that situation and especially not over awesome defensive forwards like Fast, Nash and Grabner.

The only shift Glass should see the ice during the 3rd of a close game "Shift left; shift right."

 

[McRanger]

Yeah. Sure. Whatever.

But what about the mediocre Rangers? Some people need really need to re-assess how good this team really was.

I think people really need to re-assess how good people are saying this team really was.

"Better than the Senators" is not exactly a stretch.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

The only shift Glass should see the ice during the 3rd of a close game "Shift left; shift right."

Having him out there in that situation was an objectively awful decision. He is probably the 11th or 12th forward in the pecking order of who should be out there in that situation. The fact that he's only played 12 NHL games all season and even at his best he's not someone who should be out there in that situation makes it even worse.

I'm convinced of Jesper Fast is out in his place he is in proper position and the pass eother doesn't get made because Fast is taking the lane away or the pass is made and Fast deflects it away.

That was the most important game of the season and we had a 1 goal lead with under 2 minutes left and Ottawas goalie pulled and AV lets his blind spots and favoritism influence his decision and he places the worst player on the team, maybe in the league, out there in that situation. I can't even blame Glass. It's no his fault. He's a a flawed player who was doing okay in his role as a limited minute 4th liner who bangs and provides energy. However, that in no way qualified him to be out there in this situation

For that goal to be scored against us and blowing the lead in the biggest game of the season as a DIRECT result of AV's decision to have Glass out there while superior defensive forwards such as Fast,Nash,Grabner,Hayes,Zib all watched from the bench. That is in no way a defensible decision. Not even the staunchest AV defenders can defend that decision.

It's very simple. Av plays Glass for no good reason in a situation that he has no business being on the ice. The goal is scored as a result of a cross ice pass that only connects because Glass is (predictably) out of position. That's AV making a 100% bad and indefensible decision that led to the goal that lost us the lead with under 2 minutes left in the biggest game of the season. How can anyone be happy with AV making that decision?

 

[Irishguy42]

I have decided that if we were to fire AV, I would want Paul Maclean. Only because of the mustache though.

 

[gorangers0525]

Seriously.

Every new piece of Girardi evidence is "misapplied" or "lacking context" and meanwhile, there's this ten year old mountain of **** that people keep ignoring.



This is basically how I feel showing people Girardi numbers at this point.

Please...someone with editing skills turn those diapers into Girardi stats and/or playoff goals against that were almost entirely his fault.

 

[silverfish]

Good read re: AV and Buchnevich. Still will never understand what AV was thinking with PB this year, especially considering his Vesey usage. But whatever.

http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2017/6/1/15723230/should-the-rangers-be-concerned-buchnevichs-development