Player Discussion Alain Vigneault: Part III

[mrmel329]

Would you guys want Therrien by any chance because his leash is 5 seconds longer than AV's. By that I mean, if AV gets gassed then he will be scooped up by MTL 5 seconds later making Therrien available. You can vet me on that.

Good, montreal can have him

 

[ArPanet]

There are so many dynamics that we as fans do not know about behind the scenes that I try to give AV the benefit of the doubt BUT some of his decisions really bother me as a fan.

Best take I've read on AV in a while.

I think AV is loyal to the organIzation so he plays Girardi. To do otherwise would be showing up the boss and that's worse than getting fired. AV knows this isn't his last job so he wants to maintain his reputation as a guy who an org can trust. Imho

 

[Mac n Gs]

Therrien is an absolutely awful coach. Gorton would bring in someone newer or younger. He wants a young, fresh look to the organization.

 

[Captain Lindy]

The most ridiculous thing is so many people were like, give AV through the year, give Girardi through the year, now it's, lets see how they perform to start the season...

When will it end? Girardi has been garbage since the SCF in 2014. AV has been garbage for the last 2 seasons.

2 years is enough of a sample size for me. Another year, another wasted Henrik year, another wasted year of our offensive prime players.

I'm done with AV and he's got me close to the cusp of being done with this team until he is removed.

Great coach his first year here. Utter mediocrity his second year but lucked into a trip to the ECF. Completely disastrous his third.

I would have fired him right after the playoffs ended last season.

 

[Captain Lindy]

Therrien is an absolutely awful coach. Gorton would bring in someone newer or younger. He wants a young, fresh look to the organization.

I'm so tired of re-tread coaches. I hope they hire someone within the organization.

 

[smoneil]

Neither of them are. I think what happens, especially around here, is that people get attached to prospects. When they don't perform, it's the coach's fault and not that the player just didn't develop well enough. Typically it's the coach's fault for not giving the player enough of a chance, despite the player not earning it.

That's not really "blaming" the player. Just that not everyone is going to develop the way you hope. On rare occasion, you'll have a story like what happened with Christian Dube, who got some bad advice that essentially ruined his game. Typically though, it's that the prospect just wasn't as good as hoped.

This is interesting as a theory, but it ignores the fact that AV has had "issues" with several defensemen, not all of them rookies. He put Del Zotto in a position to fail. Del Zotto is now a top pairing defenseman for a playoff team. He put Yandle in a position to fail. He thought Staal carried Stralman. He benched McIlrath after McI became part of the consistently best pairing we had last year (eye and stat tests).

You can dismiss it as "fans who got overly attached to prospects" but there is literally a mountain of evidence that AV is simply lousy at recognizing defensive talent and petty about the way he deploys certain players.

The bigger issue seems to be people getting too emotionally attached to certain coaches. I've been hearing nothing but excuses from the pro-AV crowd for months now. First it was "he earned a shot to finish the season." Then, when the season ended in a crash and burn, it was "he deserves the chance to show he can fix his system." Now that it seems clear that he's blaming the players and keeping the system exactly the same, it's "he's a great coach and you people are just overly attached to rookies."

AV is not a bad coach. However he isn't the right coach for this team, and the longer he's here, the more damage he's going to do.

 

[RempireStateBuilding]

Best take I've read on AV in a while.

I think AV is loyal to the organIzation so he plays Girardi. To do otherwise would be showing up the boss and that's worse than getting fired. AV knows this isn't his last job so he wants to maintain his reputation as a guy who an org can trust. Imho

I hope this isn't the case. There are ways to break the lessened ice time and/or lessened role to him without completely exiling him, and honestly I don't think he would be too torn up over playing a little less while receiving the same check. But if everyone in this organization from the GM to the coach is too afraid to tell good ol' boy Dan Girardi that he's getting less minutes because his play has slipped/to give rookies more of a chance of developing/however they want to spin it because they are concerned with giving off an air of loyalty, this organization is doomed.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I hope this isn't the case. There are ways to break the lessened ice time and/or lessened role to him without completely exiling him, and honestly I don't think he would be too torn up over playing a little less while receiving the same check. But if everyone in this organization from the GM to the coach is too afraid to tell good ol' boy Dan Girardi that he's getting less minutes because his play has slipped/to give rookies more of a chance of developing/however they want to spin it because they are concerned with giving off an air of loyalty, this organization is doomed.

Nobody is "afraid" to break this type of news to Dan Girardi. That's ridiculous.

I, as much as anyone, would like to see his minutes reduced. But instead of incessantly whining about how his play has slipped over the last couple of years, Rangers management is actually tasked with running 3 RD out there every game. The roster is painfully thin there.

This "anyone but Girardi" drum beat is more emotional than anything. It really ignores the roster realities of the moment. The notion that someone like McIlrath can step in and take those types of assignments is a bit of a stretch. I think people have short memories of what happened to him when he wasn't playing sheltered even strength minutes with yandle.

 

[haohmaru]

Nobody is "afraid" to break this type of news to Dan Girardi. That's ridiculous.

I, as much as anyone, would like to see his minutes reduced. But instead of incessantly whining about how his play has slipped over the last couple of years, Rangers management is actually tasked with running 3 RD out there every game. The roster is painfully thin there.

This "anyone but Girardi" drum beat is more emotional than anything. It really ignores the roster realities of the moment. The notion that someone like McIlrath can step in and take those types of assignments is a bit of a stretch. I think people have short memories of what happened to him when he wasn't playing sheltered even strength minutes with yandle.

Our RD options against other team's top lines are very thin - Mcilrath isn't ready for that role and Klein, now injured, isn't at his best in that role either. Girardi has "been there, done that" but it doesn't mean he's any good at it anymore. It's a glaring weakness on this team.

 

[OrbitalDynamics]

This is interesting as a theory, but it ignores the fact that AV has had "issues" with several defensemen, not all of them rookies. He put Del Zotto in a position to fail. Del Zotto is now a top pairing defenseman for a playoff team. He put Yandle in a position to fail. He thought Staal carried Stralman. He benched McIlrath after McI became part of the consistently best pairing we had last year (eye and stat tests).

You can dismiss it as "fans who got overly attached to prospects" but there is literally a mountain of evidence that AV is simply lousy at recognizing defensive talent and petty about the way he deploys certain players.

The bigger issue seems to be people getting too emotionally attached to certain coaches. I've been hearing nothing but excuses from the pro-AV crowd for months now. First it was "he earned a shot to finish the season." Then, when the season ended in a crash and burn, it was "he deserves the chance to show he can fix his system." Now that it seems clear that he's blaming the players and keeping the system exactly the same, it's "he's a great coach and you people are just overly attached to rookies."

AV is not a bad coach. However he isn't the right coach for this team, and the longer he's here, the more damage he's going to do.

This is truth.

But people still cling to the notion Mister Second Place is a great coach and because we were so close three years ago we should be still patient.

Close doesn't cut it.No "Moral Victories" for "Fighting a good fight" and "Not going easily".

Horseshoes,fragmentation grenades and high yield nuclear warheads can get it done with "close". Not so much in sports.

Look at the Canucks and see the future of the Rangers.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

This is truth.

But people still cling to the notion Mister Second Place is a great coach and because we were so close three years ago we should be still patient.

Close doesn't cut it.No "Moral Victories" for "Fighting a good fight" and "Not going easily".

Horseshoes,fragmentation grenades and high yield nuclear warheads can get it done with "close". Not so much in sports.

Look at the Canucks and see the future of the Rangers.[/QUOTE]

The Canucks are in deep **** because their GM kept trading prospects for washed up veterans year after year. We still have a very young core.

 

[RempireStateBuilding]

Nobody is "afraid" to break this type of news to Dan Girardi. That's ridiculous.

I, as much as anyone, would like to see his minutes reduced. But instead of incessantly whining about how his play has slipped over the last couple of years, Rangers management is actually tasked with running 3 RD out there every game. The roster is painfully thin there.

This "anyone but Girardi" drum beat is more emotional than anything. It really ignores the roster realities of the moment. The notion that someone like McIlrath can step in and take those types of assignments is a bit of a stretch. I think people have short memories of what happened to him when he wasn't playing sheltered even strength minutes with yandle.

When Girardi is something like a bottom 5-10 defenseman in the league based on just about any metric and eye tests, it's really not. What makes it emotional is how aggravating it is seeing him get assignments that he can't and hasn't been able to handle either. Nearly anyone could do a better job than he has over the last few years. Maybe it's not McIlrath, but either way it sucks that a replacement hasn't been found yet.

Maybe they're not afraid to tell him and/or actually reduce his ice time/role, but they sure have a lot of confidence that he'll regain some kind of form and do everything contrary to reducing his ice time/role in an attempt to force-fulfill this prophecy.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

When Girardi is something like a bottom 5-10 defenseman in the league based on just about any metric and eye tests, it's really not. What makes it emotional is how aggravating it is seeing him get assignments that he can't and hasn't been able to handle either. Nearly anyone could do a better job than he has over the last few years. Maybe it's not McIlrath, but either way it sucks that a replacement hasn't been found yet.

Maybe they're not afraid to tell him and/or actually reduce his ice time/role, but they sure have a lot of confidence that he'll regain some kind of form and do everything contrary to reducing his ice time/role in an attempt to force-fulfill this prophecy.

Hoping Girardi gains back at least some of the form he had a few years ago is a bad bet, obviously. But it's the first thing I'd try when my other options, currently, are Holden playing his off side, Clendening, or McIlrath. That's a **** sandwich all around.

In that situation, you'd be hard pressed to find a coach who wouldn't do the same thing. Yet AV continues to get slayed for it. It's a sad opinion devoid of context.

 

[ArPanet]

I hope this isn't the case. There are ways to break the lessened ice time and/or lessened role to him without completely exiling him, and honestly I don't think he would be too torn up over playing a little less while receiving the same check. But if everyone in this organization from the GM to the coach is too afraid to tell good ol' boy Dan Girardi that he's getting less minutes because his play has slipped/to give rookies more of a chance of developing/however they want to spin it because they are concerned with giving off an air of loyalty, this organization is doomed.

1 Cup in 76 years is as close to doomed as possible, I'm thinking.

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

1 Cup in 76 years is as close to doomed as possible, I'm thinking.

And the GM who won the one cup, wasn't even invited to celebrate the organization's 90th anniversary. They can assume him away, but fortunately, I haven't had to listen to one single 1940 chant in over 22 years (thank you Neil Smith).

This too shall pass.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

And the GM who won the one cup, wasn't even invited to celebrate the organization's 90th anniversary. They can assume him away, but fortunately, I haven't had to listen to one single 1940 chant in over 22 years (thank you Neil Smith).

This too shall pass.

Agreed. There is obviously some very strange stuff going on there. By no means do I agree with all decisions made from '92 on (nor do I know how much was due to Smith, Messier, Keenan, or ownership) but they gave us a long, long awaited cup and I will always be grateful. Neil should've been there for sure.

 

[Irishguy42]

Is it possible that maybe Smith had other plans and rejected an invite?

I find that unlikely, but who knows. There could be several reasons why he wasn't there.

 

[94Obsession]

Is it possible that maybe Smith had other plans and rejected an invite?

I find that unlikely, but who knows. There could be several reasons why he wasn't there.

Neil Smith recently said on Twitter, in response to a Mark Messier trade and acquiring of Messier anniversary that the Rangers official Twitter account put up last week, that The Garden never invites him back to The Garden for things or when it calls for it. In fact, the only time the Rangers or MSG rather has ever invited Neil Smith back was for the Mark Messier retirement ceremony, as everyone was pretty much there though, which I was lucky enough to be at back on January 12th, 2006, with the exception of a few like Sergei Zubov, since he was still playing at the time and probably had a game that night. Also, I was very lucky to be at the Mike Richter retirement ceremony back in February of 2004, and Neil Smith wasn't even invited or on the ice, when Mike Richter mentioned him, they showed him on Garden Vision in the stands. I would hope they invited him that night, but I don't think that was the case, as I actually think that he had to get tickets for that event, seeing as how he was in the stands during it.

I'll try to look for or find the quotes on Twitter or find the Twitter post that he commented on where he said this. You would think they would invite him back instead of Dolan being very vindictive. He is afterall the only GM in the last 76 years to actually help deliver and bring a Stanley Cup here to New York, and actually win something of note.

To me, if you take away that little 6 year period of when Messier first came here ('91-'97), the Rangers history would be mostly losing, and for them to not even invite Neil to these things, or something like on Thursday like opening night, is disgraceful, when they can invite Mike Keenan back at every chance they can get, who I am just as thankful for bringing a Stanlry Cup here to New York, but had a big hand in the dismantling of the '94 team, and was already plotting his exit from the team in the '94 playoffs against the Devils in the ECF mind you, and there was a near mutiny from the team against him, all while these important games were going on.

Anyway, i'll never get sick of '94, but they've whored out '94 so much since then that these guys don't even get loud cheers or responses from the fans anymore. I don't know what it is, if it's the pricing out of long time fans, or the fans now, who are diehard no doubt, but aren't as loud, because the other night it was so quiet in The Garden for opening night, no Rangers player or alumni got cheered really loud, except Lundqvist, and his cheer wasn't even that loud. It was the quietest opening night I think i've ever attended and there was absolutely no juice in The Garden the other night. Especially against the Islanders. Just wanted to point that out.

Neil Smith should definitely be invited back as often as he'd like, and it's mind boggling that they don't.

 

[94Obsession]

https://mobile.twitter.com/nycneil?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

This is Neil Smith's Twitter. Go here and go to October 4th. You'll see two things about that Messier trade and a picture of Mark Messier from that press conference. Go look at the comments on both of them as Neil Smith is commenting on it or about it in different tweets with other fans or people. It's interesting to say the least.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

https://mobile.twitter.com/nycneil?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

This is Neil Smith's Twitter. Go here and go to October 4th. You'll see two things about that Messier trade and a picture of Mark Messier from that press conference. Go look at the comments on both of them as Neil Smith is commenting on it or about it in different tweets with other fans or people. It's interesting to say the least.

Thanks for calling our attention to it. That last tweet on the 4th is amazing - he comes right out and says that the late '90s abandonment of the farm system in favor of acquiring UFA after UFA was at the behest of the Dolans, and not what he would've done had he been allowed to run the organization according to his own wishes. I've certainly seen it speculated before that that was the story (and it's possible, I suppose, that it's revisionist history on his part), but that's straight from the horse's mouth...

 

[Blais to Win]

It is interesting and it was speculated on for years. He drafted well early on, not much success after Kovalev, though. His attempt to get back to draft success with Lundmark and Brendl was just a huge huge flop, and a reminder to all who want to build from within that there are perils down every path.

 

[Bluenote13]

It is interesting and it was speculated on for years. He drafted well early on, not much success after Kovalev, though. His attempt to get back to draft success with Lundmark and Brendl was just a huge huge flop, and a reminder to all who want to build from within that there are perils down every path.

The info about the Dolans not allowing Neil to rebuild has been known by insiders for a long time now. Guys like Smith who come from player development never lose that knack to want to find talent instead of paying for it.

And the crap about Brendl and Lundmark not panning out as some warning, not down with it. Those guys were highly rated and, every novice/pro pundit out there believed the Rangers scored at that draft, wasn't like these were picks out of left field.

Every team that ever rebuilt successfully had one or two complete whiffs at the draft.

 

[Raspewtin]

The info about the Dolans not allowing Neil to rebuild has been known by insiders for a long time now. Guys like Smith who come from player development never lose that knack to want to find talent instead of paying for it.

And the crap about Brendl and Lundmark not panning out as some warning, not down with it. Those guys were highly rated and, every novice/pro pundit out there believed the Rangers scored at that draft, wasn't like these were picks out of left field.

Every team that ever rebuilt successfully had one or two complete whiffs at the draft.

Cam Barker, Angelo Esposito, Thomas Hickey come to mind.

 

[Bluenote13]

Cam Barker, Angelo Esposito, Thomas Hickey come to mind.

And those teams had had multiple top ten draft picks, Pens had 4 top 5 picks in a row. I've never waivered - if the Rangers had just played the cards they were dealt, bottoming out would have happened naturally, and the rebuild would have started WAY BEFORE Henrik got to town.

Like Edge always says, the more shots you get at the draft, the better your chances at landing those game changing talents.

 

[Draft Guru]

It is interesting and it was speculated on for years. He drafted well early on, not much success after Kovalev, though. His attempt to get back to draft success with Lundmark and Brendl was just a huge huge flop, and a reminder to all who want to build from within that there are perils down every path.

That whole '99 draft outside of the Sedins turned out to be a complete dumpster fire.

Can't put that on Smith. He made some shrewd moves at the draft to put his team in position to draft some studs. Those guys were "highly rated, can't miss prospects" by everyone in the industry. They didn't pan out. It happens.

Definitely weird that he never gets mentioned or invited to events. Must be a grudge held by Dolan.