Player Discussion Alain Vigneault: Part III

[Holocene]

Lol I give way more credit to Gorton than AV. Most of the time I think we win in spite of him. Our forwards, and now Hank, are doing a **** ton of carrying.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Bumping this thread because the guy deserves some credit. The people who are incapable of giving it can ignore it.

Agree. The team is much more in sync so far. Guys know where other guys are and the puck movements have been terrific. On the PP there's a lot more movement, no standing around waiting for something to happen. The PK has been aggressive.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

When the team plays like ****, it's all on AV. When the teams plays great, it's on the GM and the players, who are winning despite AV. Do I have this right?

 

[silverfish]

When the team plays like ****, it's all on AV. When the teams plays great, it's on the GM and the players, who are winning despite AV. Do I have this right?

Partly. Just like how when the Rangers score it was a great passing play and a rocket of a great snipe, and when we get scored on it's all about how Hank ****ed up. HF.

When the team plays like ****, a lot of the time it's because we had guys like Glass and Stoll and Paille and Girardi (last year) in the lineup over better options. Or waiting until January to give Yandle PP1 time.

The forwards look more in sync and the system looks smoother right now because we have personnel much more suited for AV hockey this year than we did last year. That's the FO basically handcuffing AV by bringing in a metric ton of offensive depth.

There are still ways, again just in my opinion, that AV isn't doing himself any favors in, like the defensive deployment. That's my main thing right now.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I'm not sure I quite understand how AV has 'reinvigorated' this team.

The real thanks should be going to Gorton for giving this team insane offensive depth that even AV couldn't play Glass over.

EDIT - Also, our views are entrenched the same way. We both want what we believe is best for NYR. We just think differently how to go about getting there.

For me, AV would do right in my book by putting #4 back in the lineup at the expense of #22 or #5. That'd be a first-step in the right direction for me.

Go back and look at all the posts when a bad Rangers team fell on their face last spring. The conversation shifted with the smallminded (glass/McIlrath/etc) to more serious charges that the team quit on AV and it was a can't miss sign that it was time for the coach to be fired. That it didn't matter how many forwards Gorton acquired, it wouldn't matter because AV loved Glass and would never stop playing him. I don't see many people talking about this anymore - because it was wrong. Beyond the personnel, this team needed to get recommitted to 200 foot game. They have. To give the coach zero credit for this is not only silly, it's ignorant and stubborn.

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

I hate to solely blame the coach for everything but it's not like he's really helping our defense considering who he is playing and who he is not. We're winning games right now but I'd like to see how our D does against more fast teams like Edmonton.

 

[silverfish]

Go back and look at all the posts when a bad Rangers team fell on their face last spring. The conversation shifted with the smallminded (glass/McIlrath/etc) to more serious charges that the team quit on AV and it was a can't miss sign that it was time for the coach to be fired. That it didn't matter how many forwards Gorton acquired, it wouldn't matter because AV loved Glass and would never stop playing him. I don't see many people talking about this anymore - because it was wrong. Beyond the personnel, this team needed to get recommitted to 200 foot game. They have. To give the coach zero credit for this is not only silly, it's ignorant and stubborn.

Part of me feels like you're taking a very small minority of HF and projecting it onto the majority of HF, but my memory could be hazy.

Plus, if it looked like AV changed his system at all (he hasn't) then we could say: "oh, look at AV making changes to fit his personnel better". That's not what I'm seeing this season. What I'm seeing is the same AV system I've seen since he came here. It worked pretty well every season but last season, because the personnel was crap for that system.

Now, that is twofold.

1) Shame on the FO for not recognizing the players they needed to give AV for AV to be successful
2) Shame on AV for NEVER CHANGING HIS SYSTEM to fit the playrs he had, not the players he either thought he had, or wished he had.

Now this season, the FO did a great job bringing in a ton of depth-forwards who are suited for man-to-man exit the zone quickly hockey. They are holding the hands of our D much better this season because they are generally quicker.

There was a large chunk of last season where the Rangers fourth line was a combination of Moore, Glass, Stoll, and Paille. This season, it's a combination of guys like Buch, Lindberg, Fast, Jooris, Pirri.

That's not AV. That's the FO.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Partly. Just like how when the Rangers score it was a great passing play and a rocket of a great snipe, and when we get scored on it's all about how Hank ****ed up. HF.

When the team plays like ****, a lot of the time it's because we had guys like Glass and Stoll and Paille and Girardi (last year) in the lineup over better options. Or waiting until January to give Yandle PP1 time.

The forwards look more in sync and the system looks smoother right now because we have personnel much more suited for AV hockey this year than we did last year. That's the FO basically handcuffing AV by bringing in a metric ton of offensive depth.

There are still ways, again just in my opinion, that AV isn't doing himself any favors in, like the defensive deployment. That's my main thing right now.

Is that "the thing" that ignores Holden has played pretty well the last few games and leaps to fantasyland where Clendening is a top 4 right defender? That thing?

Everyone knows it's the weakest part of the Rangers roster. You continue to frame it like AV can turn chicken**** into chicken salad, somehow. Ugh. If he just played Clendening, maybe the Rangers would be winning some games!

 

[silverfish]

Is that "the thing" that ignores Holden has played pretty well the last few games and leaps to fantasyland where Clendening is a top 4 right defender? That thing?

Everyone knows it's the weakest part of the Rangers roster. You continue to frame it like AV can turn chicken**** into chicken salad, somehow. Ugh. If he just played Clendening, maybe the Rangers would be winning some games!

I'm not sure what I'm doing to deserve this sort of response. Am I being hard to have a conversation with right now? I don't feel like I'm being hard to have a conversation with right now.

It's great that the Rangers are winning, but I'm uncertain why this idea that I think Clendening was more effective than Holden when he was in the lineup deserves such animosity.

I guess I'll just do us both a favor here and exit this conversation after this post.

 

[Raspewtin]

Agree. The team is much more in sync so far. Guys know where other guys are and the puck movements have been terrific. On the PP there's a lot more movement, no standing around waiting for something to happen. The PK has been aggressive.

PK I have to credit for. Totally different style.

 

[RempireStateBuilding]

Go back and look at all the posts when a bad Rangers team fell on their face last spring. The conversation shifted with the smallminded (glass/McIlrath/etc) to more serious charges that the team quit on AV and it was a can't miss sign that it was time for the coach to be fired. That it didn't matter how many forwards Gorton acquired, it wouldn't matter because AV loved Glass and would never stop playing him. I don't see many people talking about this anymore - because it was wrong. Beyond the personnel, this team needed to get recommitted to 200 foot game. They have. To give the coach zero credit for this is not only silly, it's ignorant and stubborn.

You don't see people talking about it anymore because it finally changed after 2 full seasons of AV insisting on playing Glass over anyone else. Not sure how it was "wrong" when it was a legitimate complaint for those 2 seasons where AV would do stupid **** like trotting Glass out in games where the Rangers were trailing by a goal with <2 minutes left. Gorton finally was able to get enough bottom6 players that played well enough that it forced AV's hand to set aside his toy for a superior line up. I firmly believe that if Pirri and Grabner haven't played like they have, Glass would be right back in this line up. Thankfully we'll never know.

 

[Off Sides]

The system is different, look how far back the forwards come, also look how much less the D chases because the forwards are coming back to chase.

Did AV always want that and the players just choose not to? I doubt that, seems like they finally looked at it and came to the realization that the D was not made for chasing, or breaking out. The stretch pass, tip pass is still there but it's not as often and it's not their only outlet anymore because they are coming out of their own zone as a group more often.

 

[Raspewtin]

The system is different, look how far back the forwards come, also look how much less the D chases because the forwards are coming back to chase.

Did AV always want that and the players just choose not to? I doubt that, seems like they finally looked at it and came to the realization that the D was not made for chasing, or breaking out. The stretch pass, tip pass is still there but it's not as often and it's not their only outlet anymore because they are coming out of their own zone as a group more often.

That's what I'm saying, somebody recognized this defense has no talent.

If it was AV, cool. Problem is that this heinous lack of talent on defense has been greatly exacerbated by AV's extremely poor personnel decisions.

 

[Ori]

Holden delayed penalty 11 seconds left of the period in his age of 29 was not great play @Bleed Ranger Blue. If Oilers scored on that PP.. Holden is a bottom pairing defender, or just a depth player when we signed him.

We have a hole in our RD position with our core defense - that`s the main issue.
AV is good coach when the team can score goals, but if they struggle like last night in the neutral zone to gain speed through the zone - they have issues for a long period of time like last night vs Oilers.
AV did a good decision benching Zib, Kreider, and Vesey for the majority of 3rd period though so credits to the Coach AV for sure.

 

[Inferno]

AV deserves credit for the benching last night. Good realization and feel for whats going on in the ice. the right guys were sitting.

then again Dan Girardi got ROASTED a bunch last night and STILL saw the ice consistently against better players. thats HORRID management of his team.

give the man credit for his good..but hold him accountable for his bad.

 

[Off Sides]

That's what I'm saying, somebody recognized this defense has no talent.

If it was AV, cool. Problem is that this heinous lack of talent on defense has been greatly exacerbated by AV's extremely poor personnel decisions.

If it was AV he would have seen it last year too.

It's murky, Sather, Gorton who was in control? AV and the assistants, who controls what?

All the same they picked a direction, speed, motor, puck movement, two way game, and right now it's all working.

Still think Clendening should play, he fits into that. If it were me I'd play him in the games where the opponent is lesser (Carolina recently, or some of the up coming games against Canada for example), so when the regulars are slacking thinking they are so good they don't need to work he'd be out there trying to keep his spot in the roster.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Can't it be both? Give Gorton credit for adding speed and tenaciously defensive forwards to the lineup, while bringing in youth with Zibanejad, Vesey, and Buchnevich, and give AV credit for adjusting to use the new personnel.

 

[Ail]

That's what I'm saying, somebody recognized this defense has no talent.

If it was AV, cool. Problem is that this heinous lack of talent on defense has been greatly exacerbated by AV's extremely poor personnel decisions.

Correct. There's also no indication AV is the one who rectified any of the problems which have been solved thus far.

We can give him credit for playing his best players the most nightly, because he is definitely doing that, and he should be. We can give him credit for thus far keeping lines and players who have chemistry, largely in tact.

However, he is still making questionable roster choices which at the moment are only masked by how well the team is playing as a whole, particularly the offense. If McDonagh wasn't back to his Norris form, he wouldn't be able to carry Girardi as we have seen in the past what happens when McDonagh also looks like crap. Holden is still questionable if he should even be on this team.

Let's see what they look like after the offense cools off before we start praising anyone, especially AV. I'd still fire him today, if I could.

 

[True Blue]

Is that "the thing" that ignores Holden has played pretty well the last few games and leaps to fantasyland where Clendening is a top 4 right defender? That thing?

Dude, largely Holden has not been good. Ok, he had a good night. Great. But I will reserve singing his praises until he has done it over a slightly longer period.

As for AV, yes he has changed his system. Or maybe not. Maybe now he has the players to get it done. Which does not excuse the past. But then again, them using the boards to chip the puck when the neutral zone is not available is a good sign. So kudos to him.

Good on him for also changing up the defensive philosophy. I still worry about him making in game adjustments in the long haul. And I still worry about personnel decision making. Hopefully I will have no need to question him any longer over the course of the year.

So kudos for what I see happening right now and let's hope that it continues to happen.

 

[Raspewtin]

Correct. There's also no indication AV is the one who rectified any of the problems which have been solved thus far.

We can give him credit for playing his best players the most nightly, because he is definitely doing that, and he should be. We can give him credit for thus far keeping lines and players who have chemistry, largely in tact.

However, he is still making questionable roster choices which at the moment are only masked by how well the team is playing as a whole, particularly the offense. If McDonagh wasn't back to his Norris form, he wouldn't be able to carry Girardi as we have seen in the past what happens when McDonagh also looks like crap. Holden is still questionable if he should even be on this team.

Let's see what they look like after the offense cools off before we start praising anyone, especially AV. I'd still fire him today, if I could.

mostly this.

me not "giving him credit" doesn't mean I don't think he's done good things. I'm just not impressed or convinced yet. the "credit" he deserves stems from mostly no-brainer decisions.

 

[True Blue]

The system is different, look how far back the forwards come, also look how much less the D chases because the forwards are coming back to chase.

Did AV always want that and the players just choose not to? I doubt that, seems like they finally looked at it and came to the realization that the D was not made for chasing, or breaking out. The stretch pass, tip pass is still there but it's not as often and it's not their only outlet anymore because they are coming out of their own zone as a group more often.

Well put.

 

[Miamipuck]

I am not getting into the larger discussion of his weird usage and poor roster decisions. Last night he coached a fantastic game. He shortened the bench when his team was getting out played and generally looked like the slower team. As soon as he benched CK-MZ-JV the team looked like a different team. I will give credit where it's due.

 

[Open Mind]

Part of me feels like you're taking a very small minority of HF and projecting it onto the majority of HF, but my memory could be hazy.

Plus, if it looked like AV changed his system at all (he hasn't) then we could say: "oh, look at AV making changes to fit his personnel better". That's not what I'm seeing this season. What I'm seeing is the same AV system I've seen since he came here. It worked pretty well every season but last season, because the personnel was crap for that system.

Now, that is twofold.

1) Shame on the FO for not recognizing the players they needed to give AV for AV to be successful
2) Shame on AV for NEVER CHANGING HIS SYSTEM to fit the playrs he had, not the players he either thought he had, or wished he had.

Now this season, the FO did a great job bringing in a ton of depth-forwards who are suited for man-to-man exit the zone quickly hockey. They are holding the hands of our D much better this season because they are generally quicker.

There was a large chunk of last season where the Rangers fourth line was a combination of Moore, Glass, Stoll, and Paille. This season, it's a combination of guys like Buch, Lindberg, Fast, Jooris, Pirri.

That's not AV. That's the FO.

IMHO the system absolutely shows adjustments. Looks like a zone-hybrid, and the zone breakout and transition game looks improved. This seems to be leading to more 5 man unit play in both ends, better transition out of our end and through the neutral zone, and opposition more held to the outside in our zone. I still see some breakdowns in our end, and guys vacating the front of the net, but I definitely see adjustments in the system this season which are somewhat boosting strengths and minimizing weaknesses.

I've been somewhat critical of AV in the past and sometimes felt the team was almost winning in spite of him. This season I can't say that. If I can critique, I have to be equally as ready to offer praise when I think it's warranted. And I think the coaching staff as a whole is doing a good job this season.

 

[silverfish]

IMHO the system absolutely shows adjustments. Looks like a zone-hybrid, and the zone breakout and transition game looks improved. This seems to be leading to more 5 man unit play in both ends, better transition out of our end and through the neutral zone, and opposition more held to the outside in our zone. I still see some breakdowns in our end, and guys vacating the front of the net, but I definitely see adjustments in the system this season which are somewhat boosting strengths and minimizing weaknesses.

I've been somewhat critical of AV in the past and sometimes felt the team was almost winning in spite of him. This season I can't say that. If I can critique, I have to be equally as ready to offer praise when I think it's warranted. And I think the coaching staff as a whole is doing a good job this season.

I'm hesitant to believe these are core system adjustments, and not just AV playing the same system but having better personnel inside it.

The PK? 100% different.

5v5? I'm not sure.

 

[SportsArchaeologist]

I'm hesitant to believe these are core system adjustments, and not just AV playing the same system but having better personnel inside it.

The PK? 100% different.

5v5? I'm not sure.

i believe there was a post-game not too long ago where AV explicitly said they had shifted the d to more of a zone-hybrid.