Player Discussion Alain Vigneault: Part III

[Open Mind]

I'm hesitant to believe these are core system adjustments, and not just AV playing the same system but having better personnel inside it.

The PK? 100% different.

5v5? I'm not sure.

Fair enough. But it is possible it's a combination of both things. With personnel improvement, slight tweaks can be very effective. Since I coached in the past I don't tend to notice individuals quite as well. My eyes are more prone to focusing on all five players collectively and where they all are and what they're all doing. To me the positioning in our zone and our breakouts/transition look slightly different this year. But that's just me. Everyone perceives the game differently, and I respect that we all have different perspectives.

 

[Irishguy42]

Our players did not play the neutral zone like they do now. I think it's a combo of new personnel/AV changing things up.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I think AV has done a pretty damn good job this season, but I don't think bringing up Beuk should be underestimated. Our defense with better personnel was worse than it has been this season. The team defense has actually been pretty damn good, somehow. Gotta give some credit to Beuk, don't think him coming in and the defense getting better is a coincidence.

 

[Irishguy42]

Our team D sucked last night. But in general, Beuk/AV seem to be doing a great job this season, particularly Beuk.

 

[silverfish]

Fair enough. But it is possible it's a combination of both things. With personnel improvement, slight tweaks can be very effective. Since I coached in the past I don't tend to notice individuals quite as well. My eyes are more prone to focusing on all five players collectively and where they all are and what they're all doing. To me the positioning in our zone and our breakouts/transition look slightly different this year. But that's just me. Everyone perceives the game differently, and I respect that we all have different perspectives.

Get this hippy crap out of here. This is HF. Everyone is always right and you are always wrong.



^ did I actually need to put that?

 

[Inferno]

we are doing a LOT of area passes and having our guys just skate to the pucks...we're basically daring the other teams to step up to make a play...if they do, they have it and are heading back down our throat...if they dont, our guys have a head of steam coming at them...and if they do and miss, its a breakaway. we're daring a lot of teams...so far its paying off...will it be that case forever? time will tell.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Our team D sucked last night. But in general, Beuk/AV seem to be doing a great job this season, particularly Beuk.

First half of the game it sucked but honestly it's probably more of a good sign that they struggled early and were able to fix it than if they were great all game without fighting adversity.

 

[Irishguy42]

First half of the game it sucked but honestly it's probably more of a good sign that they struggled early and were able to fix it than if they were great all game without fighting adversity.

Yes. Seeing them figuring it out and fixing things mid-game is a great sign.

 

[GordonGecko]

I think AV has done a pretty damn good job this season, but I don't think bringing up Beuk should be underestimated.

Ulf part of the problem?

 

[Open Mind]

Get this hippy crap out of here. This is HF. Everyone is always right and you are always wrong.



^ did I actually need to put that?

Please... I have a wife and two daughters: I already know I'm always wrong. Honestly, my original account here dated back to 2003. I was a well known poster and maybe then I was more apt to occasionally dig my heels in. I stepped away from here with two small kids to focus on. Now, my 4 and 6 year olds wear me out and I just don't have the will to have interweb debates. This new, quiet, off to the side account is peaceful and ideal

 

[Ori]

AV looked concerned after last game for sure.

 

[Irishguy42]

AV looked concerned after last game for sure.

In his post-game interview, he said the same thing we were all saying: that their passing was absolute ****. He was ticked, and had every right to be.

 

[TheLowKreider]

I'm not sure how to evaluate AV.

On one hand there's no doubt that offensively the Rangers have become an offensive powerhouse since he took over. Yes the players are talented, but there's no Sedin-level forward here. I can't complain much about what he does with our forwards. And I think the "not playing young players" narrative (McIlrath aside) is false. He consistently plays rookies in our lineup.

On the other hand, his decisions with the defense and certain decisions on the periphery of the roster is frustrating. There's some obvious stubbornness there that may make a difference between contender and winner. The underlying metrics are also a concern.

But realistically are there better coaches out there available?

 

[TheTakedown]

I'm not sure how to evaluate AV.

On one hand there's no doubt that offensively the Rangers have become an offensive powerhouse since he took over. Yes the players are talented, but there's no Sedin-level forward here. I can't complain much about what he does with our forwards. And I think the "not playing young players" narrative (McIlrath aside) is false. He consistently plays rookies in our lineup.

On the other hand, his decisions with the defense and certain decisions on the periphery of the roster is frustrating. There's some obvious stubbornness there that may make a difference between contender and winner. The underlying metrics are also a concern.

But realistically are there better coaches out there available?

what it really comes down to is the fact that AV absolutely needs to be protected from himself. Gorton's done a decent job of that thus far, but the real issue is that Girardi is still getting praised and played like he's the 2011-12 version when he's basically a 7th defenseman at this point.

I don't want to be this guy, but Girardi is the only remaining problem child on this roster--he hasn't looked good with anyone, even McDonagh, he's consistently posting bad numbers, he doesn't look good on the ice, he's been getting burned about 3 times a game by opposing speedy wingers--it all just goes to the wayside of AV and Girardi gets his free pass, and that's what really gets me about him.

Gorton already took care of Glass, and it seems like he took care of AV's obsession with Fast in the top 6 by signing actual top 6 players (it's almost like Gorton needs to Prove to AV that AV is wrong before AV will concede and start changing things up), and AV now seems open to guys in the minors that you wouldn't have expected...

Something needs to be done about Girardi--that's all this team needs. Any time Girardi is on the ice is time that the team is getting shots pelted against, which results in more defense, more chances against, which in tight situations is going to result in game changing negative occurences which will cost this team a playoff run.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

what it really comes down to is the fact that AV absolutely needs to be protected from himself. Gorton's done a decent job of that thus far, but the real issue is that Girardi is still getting praised and played like he's the 2011-12 version when he's basically a 7th defenseman at this point.

I don't want to be this guy, but Girardi is the only remaining problem child on this roster--he hasn't looked good with anyone, even McDonagh, he's consistently posting bad numbers, he doesn't look good on the ice, he's been getting burned about 3 times a game by opposing speedy wingers--it all just goes to the wayside of AV and Girardi gets his free pass, and that's what really gets me about him.

Gorton already took care of Glass, and it seems like he took care of AV's obsession with Fast in the top 6 by signing actual top 6 players (it's almost like Gorton needs to Prove to AV that AV is wrong before AV will concede and start changing things up), and AV now seems open to guys in the minors that you wouldn't have expected...

Something needs to be done about Girardi--that's all this team needs. Any time Girardi is on the ice is time that the team is getting shots pelted against, which results in more defense, more chances against, which in tight situations is going to result in game changing negative occurences which will cost this team a playoff run.

GM provide coach with better players - those players play. Funny how that works.

This is your daily reminder that Girardi, Klein, and Clendening are the only RHD on this roster right now.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

GM provide coach with better players - those players play. Funny how that works.

This is your daily reminder that Girardi, Klein, and Clendening are the only RHD on this roster right now.

In an ideal world, Clendening would play over Girardi. In the real world, Girardi has been here for 10 years and makes 5.5M per. It sucks, and I don't agree with it, but I get why Girardi is playing. I don't think any coach in the league would play this situation differently.

That said, Klein should absolutely be taking a seat for Clendo at this point. Honestly, I don't think he's recovered from the back injury that let him out of the lineup earlier in the season. Regardless, he's been awful, worse than Girardi, probably our worst defenseman overall. I would keep Holden away from McDonagh, as he's been much better since being moved down. So, yeah, I don't see where else Girardi goes. If we end up acquiring a righty D (whichever i think we do), I'd be fine with G on the third pair. Then bought out in the offseason.

Regarding Vigneault. I honestly have next to zero complaints about him this season. Last year, he really took a hit in my eyes, but he's redeemed himself tremendously thus far this season.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

In an ideal world, Clendening would play over Girardi. In the real world, Girardi has been here for 10 years and makes 5.5M per. It sucks, and I don't agree with it, but I get why Girardi is playing. I don't think any coach in the league would play this situation differently.

That said, Klein should absolutely be taking a seat for Clendo at this point. Honestly, I don't think he's recovered from the back injury that let him out of the lineup earlier in the season. Regardless, he's been awful, worse than Girardi, probably our worst defenseman overall. I would keep Holden away from McDonagh, as he's been much better since being moved down. So, yeah, I don't see where else Girardi goes. If we end up acquiring a righty D (whichever i think we do), I'd be fine with G on the third pair. Then bought out in the offseason.

Regarding Vigneault. I honestly have next to zero complaints about him this season. Last year, he really took a hit in my eyes, but he's redeemed himself tremendously thus far this season.

Agreed, especially the part about no coach in the league playing this situation differently, which makes the incessant whining about girardi even more childish. Gorton and AV are smart guys and they know they need an upgrade on the right side. Something tells me that, if and when they get it, and Girardi is shifted to the 3rd pair, he will still get the lion's share of the blame for this team not winning the cup. That's just the way it goes around here.

 

[Raspewtin]

In an ideal world, Clendening would play over Girardi. In the real world, Girardi has been here for 10 years and makes 5.5M per. It sucks, and I don't agree with it, but I get why Girardi is playing. I don't think any coach in the league would play this situation differently.

See, in hindsight I understood this last year a **** ton more than I do this year. He had the worst season an NHL d-man has had in years, faced no accountability for it, while we let better options rot away. This year, the experiment should be finished. This is not Bill Belichek and Tom Brady. AV and Girardi aren't best buddies going back 10 years. AV's been here for 3 years. Girardi is one of the worst players in the NHL. This isn't a Henrik Zetterberg or a Martin Brodeur situation where they are clearly not good anymore but with their tenure and accomplishments you have to let them just accept their reduced roles. I'm not sure another coach wouldn't have done the same thing, but this is an extreme case and one I can't think of having a duplicate in recent memory.

He's legitimately costing us wins. The coach playing him for loyalty purposes just indicates the coach cares more about things that don't matter than winning games. At this point, there's no defense for it anymore. Last year, there was.

 

[Cassano]

AV is amazing. He was given meh-unproven forwards and a garbage defense and has the team scoring at an insane pace. He's working extremely well with what he has. He is the best coach in hockey.

 

[Kaapodonna]

I think Av is probably the 3rd best coach in the NHL right now in my opinion. 1) Coach Q, 2) Trotz, 3) AV

Every coach has their own nuance that the fan base doesn't like.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

See, in hindsight I understood this last year a **** ton more than I do this year. He had the worst season an NHL d-man has had in years, faced no accountability for it, while we let better options rot away. This year, the experiment should be finished. This is not Bill Belichek and Tom Brady. AV and Girardi aren't best buddies going back 10 years. AV's been here for 3 years. Girardi is one of the worst players in the NHL. This isn't a Henrik Zetterberg or a Martin Brodeur situation where they are clearly not good anymore but with their tenure and accomplishments you have to let them just accept their reduced roles. I'm not sure another coach wouldn't have done the same thing, but this is an extreme case and one I can't think of having a duplicate in recent memory.

He's legitimately costing us wins. The coach playing him for loyalty purposes just indicates the coach cares more about things that don't matter than winning games. At this point, there's no defense for it anymore. Last year, there was.

You're hitching your wagon to Adam Clendenning much like you hitched it to McIlrath last season. Proceed with caution. Just because Girardi stinks doesn't mean theres a suitable improvement on the current roster, your hyperbole on Girardi being the worst player in the NHL aside....hes not even the worst player in the Rangers top 6 this season.

 

[Off Sides]

I am not so sure it's just AV, I think likely management wants Girardi to play given the financial commitment they made. Sather is still president, maybe the timing for them to make a change is just not right politically.

As is he is costing them nothing they have not already spent, and they are winning, and projecting to make the playoffs, there is no pressure to do anything.

Once they are faced with a bad deal, like they either buyout Girardi or they lose someone they do value financially/marketability wise, or if they are losing and risk losing playoff revenue, it will make more sense to the people who are currently like, what do you mean we are going to let 6M in salary sit?

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I am not so sure it's just AV, I think likely management wants Girardi to play given the financial commitment they made. Sather is still president, maybe the timing for them to make a change is just not right politically.

As is he is costing them nothing they have not already spent, and they are winning, and projecting to make the playoffs, there is no pressure to do anything.

Once they are faced with a bad deal, like they either buyout Girardi or they lose someone they do value financially/marketability wise, or if they are losing and risk losing playoff revenue, it will make more sense to the people who are currently like, what do you mean we are going to let 6M in salary sit?

All probably true. This calculus would probably change if there was a no brainer/clear cut better option staring them in the face. There's not, despite what others want to believe.

 

[aufheben]

I think Holden would be a better option for McDonagh, although preferably I'd like Clendening at least to be tried there or in the top-4.

 

[TheTakedown]

You're hitching your wagon to Adam Clendenning much like you hitched it to McIlrath last season. Proceed with caution. Just because Girardi stinks doesn't mean theres a suitable improvement on the current roster, your hyperbole on Girardi being the worst player in the NHL aside....hes not even the worst player in the Rangers top 6 this season.

it's not really that hyperbolic--Girardi has the 8th worst corsi % of all defensemen with 200 minutes played this season. He's that bad

Last year he was in fact the worst of all defenseman with 750 minutes played