Player Discussion Alain Vigneault: Part III
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smoneil
Registered User
I wanted him fired last December/January. I think we wasted a year or Lundqvist's window giving AV the "benefit of the doubt."
Management gave him a VERY long leash, considering that AV basically couldn't get his team going at any point last year (terrible from game 1 and AV couldn't make adjustments). AV and this team were embarrassed in the first round by a team that only had to exploit the glaring weaknesses that we had all last season.
Management gave him even more leash. Management went out and got him new toys. Upgraded the depth. Upgraded the defensive capability and speed of the forwards.
AV had better be entering this season on a hot seat. If he's still rolling out the man to man defense and leaving other teams' best players wide open in front of Henrik, then he had better be in the unemployment line by no later than Christmas.
I don't care what he supposedly did three years ago. If there's no improvement/change to his idiotic system by December, then that will be a season and a half of sustained incompetence.
Management gave him a VERY long leash, considering that AV basically couldn't get his team going at any point last year (terrible from game 1 and AV couldn't make adjustments). AV and this team were embarrassed in the first round by a team that only had to exploit the glaring weaknesses that we had all last season.
Management gave him even more leash. Management went out and got him new toys. Upgraded the depth. Upgraded the defensive capability and speed of the forwards.
AV had better be entering this season on a hot seat. If he's still rolling out the man to man defense and leaving other teams' best players wide open in front of Henrik, then he had better be in the unemployment line by no later than Christmas.
I don't care what he supposedly did three years ago. If there's no improvement/change to his idiotic system by December, then that will be a season and a half of sustained incompetence.
Agreed 100%
Hopefully Beuk will be able to run the D without too much interference from AV.
He will simplify things a little more and the players really like him.
I especially want to see him continue to mentor McIlrath who I'm expecting to see big things from this year as long as AV doesn't screw it up.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Chimpradamus
Registered User
Yes, the man to man defense was the biggest gripe I had with AV last season. You play a high risk defensive system that relies on the mobility and hockey IQ of your defensemen, when he rolls with Girardi, Staal and Boyle? Three of the slowest defensemen I can think of and where two of them are useless anyway if they ever win the puck?
It was idiotic and he never changed it back to a zone defense, which is much easier for the defensemen, but more passive. It was a ridiculous season. The defense was bad and the PK abysmal.
Now all puck movers except McD - and he's not great at it - are gone and AV's system is completely ruined. How are the defensemen going to distribute the puck up to the forwards?
It was idiotic and he never changed it back to a zone defense, which is much easier for the defensemen, but more passive. It was a ridiculous season. The defense was bad and the PK abysmal.
Now all puck movers except McD - and he's not great at it - are gone and AV's system is completely ruined. How are the defensemen going to distribute the puck up to the forwards?
His system totally sucks. He obsessed with the old Red Wings dynasty.
All he has to do is make minor adjustments which he refuses to do. The forwards need to help out the D instead of waiting for a high risk stretch pass that will never happen without getting picked off as witnessed against the Pens. Meanwhile the D are fighting off a 3 on 2.
It's absurd! Really!!
NYRFANMANI
Department of Rempe Safety Management
I really think he's simply dumb. Like he barely made it out of school dumb. Somehow he was good at coaching and turned that into a career. I just hope Gorts is the opposite of Sather. Slowly redeeming the last couple of turds Sather dropped on us.
Inferno
Registered User
I dont think AV is dumb at all..in fact I think hes one of the smarter coaches we've had. What I dont think AV is good at is separating eye test from statistics AND separating current production from past production AND separating the man from the player.
those 3 things are his biggest flaws.
his man to man defense would work great with 6 EKs on the blueline. then again he'd probably scratch them in favor of 6 Dan Girardis.
those 3 things are his biggest flaws.
his man to man defense would work great with 6 EKs on the blueline. then again he'd probably scratch them in favor of 6 Dan Girardis.
AV is a decent regular season coach as his track record indicates but he's a horrible playoff coach as his record also indicates..
NYRFANMANI
Department of Rempe Safety Management
His inability to adjust, long-term and short-term is what's killing me/it. And I attribute that to stupidity.
smoneil
Registered User
I'd say more stubborn than stupid. It's not that he's dumb. He's just not as smart as he thinks he is. He has this system, and his whole approach is being patient with it, which is grounded on the assumption that the problem isn't the system, but that the players just aren't doing it right.
There comes a point though, where you need to realize that the horses you have aren't suited to run on the track that you've built. AV refuses to do that.
His issue isn't that he's stupid. He's just incapable of seeing that his system isn't a good fit for these players (not a knock on the system OR the players--that's just the reality of coaching. Different players have different attributes). AV's stubborn insistence on this system is making great players look good, good players look mediocre, mediocre players look bad, and bad players look Girardi.
Irishguy42
Mr. Preachy
AV is not "barely make it out of school" stupid. Jesus tap-dancing Christ...
He's just stubborn when it comes to adapting and making changes.
He's just stubborn when it comes to adapting and making changes.
Irishguy42
Mr. Preachy
Inferno
Registered User
my wife and i went there a few weeks back...it was the first time back in NY for me since before 9/11...its been a loooooong time.
i started to tear up during the walk through the section where its the timeline of the days events...i literally started having flashbacks to where i was (at home with my dad, in NJ)...it was eerie, numbing, surreal. whoever put together that display was very very good...amazing piece of history...even if it is infamous.
NYRFANMANI
Department of Rempe Safety Management
Ain't gonna start a discussion on "is stubbornness stupidity". We all can agree he doesn't adjust, bad enough.
Mac n Gs
Drury plz
- Jan 17, 2014
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Since we're already talking about firing AV before the season starts, I'll throw a name out there just for fun: Phil Housley. Defensive assistant coach with the Preds right now, former USA WJC head coaching experience (coached Miller, Vesey and Trouba), and if you haven't heard about his playing career, well, he was kinda ok at the NHL level.
NYRFANMANI
Department of Rempe Safety Management
Dat Preds defense has been great over the last many years, yes please!
FYI we've been talknig about firing AV for more than a year now.
E-Train
Registered User
WesMcCauley
Registered User
- Apr 24, 2015
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As much as im not a huge AV fan, the guy has horrible cards to play with on defense and no superstar forward. We didnt waste a year of Hanks window with AV last season, we just had a team that never was good enough to win. Not saying AV did very well but cmon that team, specially the way our defense played was just not close to good enough no matter what. Ye Pens turned it around after a new coach got hired but they have Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel etc and arguably the best young goalie in the game who played incredible.
Not easy to contend with the two horrible contracts we have on defense either. What do you do? Sit Girardi for the next 4 years and play Mcilrath? We arent winning that way either. He took the team to the finals which is pretty damn impressive with the team we had. No superstar forward, won alot of games because we played like a team. When our defensive players now have declined to the point they have, 7,8 mill cap hit in Nash who is declining.... AV has horrible cards to play with. Only right move to me is rebuild/retool. Trade Nash with retention, trade Mcdonagh(?), trade Zucc etc. Can easily tank with Girardi and Staal in the lineup, but then again, we are wasting Mcdonaghs prime(unless traded) and Lundquists last years as a top goalie. Its a complete mess. He could have done some things differently but we have a huge problem with thoose contracts. We lack a superstar forward and our top 4 is very weak outside of Mcdonagh(solid #1) and Klein(solid top 4). Cant change the whole defensive system just because our worst defensemen might be a little less worse if we do... Girardi has run out of gas, nothing left....
RempireStateBuilding
Registered User
The cards he has are serviceable, at absolute worst. He doesn't want to maximize their usefulness because he's dead set in fitting square pegs in round holes.
Re: the bold. The entire team's defense, ie. breakout options the forwards gave the D, was just as bad as the defense itself. The forwards never looked like they had any idea where they were supposed to go to make things any easier on the D, and the D just had no idea what they were doing. They didn't play as a team last year which is the most prevalent problem this iteration of the team is having.
smoneil
Registered User
Henrik dragged this team to the finals, and the reason we didn't get closer to the Cup that year was because AV insisted on turtling on 1 goal leads.
As for the cards, that would make sense if anyone really played well last year. If Girardi had made his living skating after guys in his own zone and then stopped succeeding because of a loss of speed, then I could see your point. That's not what happened. Girardi and Staal both thrive in the zone because their strengths are positioning, reach, and breaking up the passing lanes. Their weaknesses are puck-handling and speed. AV's system has them trying to nothing BUT the things they struggle with, which takes them out of position to do the things they are good at.
Neither player has looked all that good since AV first took over.
We can't get the players AV needs to run his system (you essentially need three #1 guys).
We can't get rid of the guys whose games are particularly ill-suited to AV's system.
The only other available option is for AV to change his system. If he's not willing to do that, after watching it fail for 87 games last year, then he needs to be shown the door.
Edited to add--Another issue is that AV is known to be very "hands off" in the room. Three seasons ago, Richards was in the room. Two seasons ago, MSL was in the room. Last year? We don't really have the kind of veteran leadership to compensate for an absentee coach. Lundqvist and McD are great, but they are more "do as I do" guys than "give a rousing talk to the guys" guys. Stepan is the same.
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
AV is doing great for the personel he has here (especially on the defence). We are not in similar situation to Pittsburgh's last year when Sullivan came in. We don't have 2 superstars at center. Every coach that comes here will have to work with same deficiencies as AV and I am not sure any other coach can make more out of the player squad that is here righ now. We can only rely on our speed and Henrik, which is exactly what AV is doing. We are just not talented enough team (outside of the goalie of course) and even Babcock is not going to win a lot with this defense. Just my $0.05.
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