Player Discussion Alain Vigneault: Part III

[Raspewtin]

There were warning signs from the 2014-15 season, but even then, they (2015-16) were just so pitiful in various areas.

There were warning signs that about 85% of the posters here and NYR management all blatantly ignored and are now sitting here wondering how it all went wrong.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

There were warning signs that about 85% of the posters here and NYR management all blatantly ignored and are now sitting here wondering how it all went wrong.

There you go Monday morning quarterbacking again.

Im sure you, given the opportunity, would have been the brave soul that didn't give a veteran group that has been competing for 4 years - that had just come off a SCF appearance, a President's trophy, and game 7 of the ECF over the previous year - one more chance to get the job done. Im sure you would've been the one to implement big changes because of your "warning signs"

 

[Raspewtin]

There you go Monday morning quarterbacking again.

Monday morning quarterbacking my ****ing ass. There was a loud contingent saying the team was a bit lucky and the defense was worse than appeared and would only continue to get worse. And that's exactly what happened.

 

[cwede]

There you go Monday morning quarterbacking again.
I'm sure you, given the opportunity, would have been the brave soul that didn't give a veteran group that has been competing for 4 years - that had just come off a SCF appearance, a President's trophy, and game 7 of the ECF over the previous year - one more chance to get the job done. I'm sure you would've been the one to implement big changes because of your "warning signs"

If you were paying attention in the first third, it was very obvious that NYR were winning better than they were performing. And then the results did catch up with them.

and btw I am NOT an advanced stats guys, i think tell just some of the story

and i am one those consistently positive fans, down by 3 or 4, i always just say we gotta get the next one

and I very often do not agree with Raspewtin's posts

but most of the year we were mediocre, easy to play against

no one expected losing Hags and Marty would have so much negative effect

The great games, complete 2 way efforts - like vs Dallas, St Lou, Chicago, LA, Anaheim in '16 - were rarities, though sometimes in bunches.

So many goals-against after goals-for,
so many goals allowed in bunches,
so many late game-tying or -winning goals-against,
pitiful power play, lame PK,
so many long shifts where they could never get the puck out of their zone,
so many O-zone shifts with no pressure,

this season's NYR were rarely hard to play against, rarely opportunistic and rarely clutch

 

[East Coast Bias]

MMQB - seriously?

There are plenty of posters here who sounded the alarm in October. It was clear as day this team was a mess. They never recovered.

Now we're going to claim no one saw this coming, because the alternative is admitting maybe, just maybe, advanced stats have some correlation to results??

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

MMQB - seriously?

There are plenty of posters here who sounded the alarm in October. It was clear as day this team was a mess. They never recovered.

Now we're going to claim no one saw this coming, because the alternative is admitting maybe, just maybe, advanced stats have some correlation to results??

That would be too easy to admit it seems.

A lot of people were saying the team would not go far, and it happened. Must be some sort of magic or something

 

[TheTakedown]

MMQB - seriously?

There are plenty of posters here who sounded the alarm in October. It was clear as day this team was a mess. They never recovered.

Now we're going to claim no one saw this coming, because the alternative is admitting maybe, just maybe, advanced stats have some correlation to results??

That would be too easy it seems.

A lot of people were saying the team would not go far, and it happened. Must be some sort of magic or something

Remember all of the "When this team really starts to click!" and "when Player X and Player Y get their head out of their ass, imagine what this team can do!"

After seeing that for nearly a month I knew this team would be a let down.

 

[Captain Lindy]

Monday morning quarterbacking my ****ing ass. There was a loud contingent saying the team was a bit lucky and the defense was worse than appeared and would only continue to get worse. And that's exactly what happened.

Yes! Even games where the team won, there was something not quite right. It was hard to identify it. I say coaching.

 

[Trxjw]

MMQB - seriously?

There are plenty of posters here who sounded the alarm in October. It was clear as day this team was a mess. They never recovered.

Now we're going to claim no one saw this coming, because the alternative is admitting maybe, just maybe, advanced stats have some correlation to results??

Who is claiming that there's no correlation?

 

[Jersey Girl]

Yes! Even games where the team won, there was something not quite right. It was hard to identify it. I say coaching.

It's also possible the coach deserves some credit for the team's great record the first part of the season even thought the roster was 'not quite right.'

 

[cwede]

"So many goals-against after goals-for,
so many goals allowed in bunches,
so many late game-tying or -winning goals-against,
pitiful power play, lame PK,
so many long shifts where they could never get the puck out of their zone,
so many O-zone shifts with no pressure"

Yes! Even games where the team won, there was something not quite right. It was hard to identify it. I say coaching.

yes, agreed, over time, coaching should have been able to address all of that, much more than they did, whether it was personnel, roles, system, set plays, etc

 

[Raspewtin]

It's also possible the coach deserves some credit for the team's great record the first part of the season even thought the roster was 'not quite right.'

Yeah AV did a great job coaching Hank to a 95% SV.

Which is pretty much exclusively the reason that run happened.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

MMQB - seriously?

There are plenty of posters here who sounded the alarm in October. It was clear as day this team was a mess. They never recovered.

Now we're going to claim no one saw this coming, because the alternative is admitting maybe, just maybe, advanced stats have some correlation to results??

Whether you go by the eye test, advanced stats, or both, I dont think anyone is arguing that the team was not good last season. Thats not what my comment was about. It was more about how many posters, the one I quoted perhaps being the biggest culprit, leaving the surly bonds of reality about what realistically was going to be done last season at the first signs of poor advanced statistics and a defense corp that was sliding.

This was a team coming off a year of accomplishments between 2014 to 2015 -- a SCF appearance, a President's trophy, and ECF Game 7 appearance. They were going to get the benefit of the doubt this last season, and quite frankly they deserved it. I think there was this prevailing thought throughout the organization that a team with that kind of experience would turn it on, eventually. But more importantly, Im not so sure what wholesale changes were even available to be made once it became abundantly clear that this team was worse than the previous 2. Then again, maybe Im just living in the real world and some of you tough guys really would've shipped Girardi off to Siberia if given the chance.

In any event, that core group got "one more kick at the can" as AV put it. If there aren't some large changes this offseason, then I'll have a problem with it.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Yeah AV did a great job coaching Hank to a 95% SV.

Which is pretty much exclusively the reason that run happened.

It's all relative. If I say the run ended less because the coach became an idiot overnight and more because Hank's goaltending went south, someone could say that was the coach's fault too because the defense was consistently breaking down.

Then you could circle back to the coach somehow getting a poor defense to play well enough for the first 20 games to get them to where they were.

It's all relative. Whatever agenda someone is trying to drive is how they'll spin those first 20 games.

 

[Raspewtin]

Whether you go by the eye test, advanced stats, or both, I dont think anyone is arguing that the team was not good last season. Thats not what my comment was about. It was more about how many posters, the one I quoted perhaps being the biggest culprit, leaving the surly bonds of reality about what realistically was going to be done last season at the first signs of poor advanced statistics and a defense corp that was sliding.

Then what the **** should we be discussing since what you don't believe in seems to be off limits? We can't make any bold moves with "muh veterans with muh experienc", we can't make any re-tool trades because we were 3rd in the conference, we can't change the system because it's all the players' fault, what can we do? What was the solution? What is this fairy tale solution you keep insisting exists, to the point where everybody else is just a moron that can't see writing on the wall?

This was a team coming off a year of accomplishments between 2014 to 2015 -- a SCF appearance, a President's trophy, and ECF Game 7 appearance. They were going to get the benefit of the doubt this last season, and quite frankly they deserved it.

But they didn't win, did they? They lost (big, admittedly) two years straight and got some leeway for their accomplishments. Fine. But the entire team got a long leash because of that and it wound up costing the team potentially many points in the standings, and damages that simply couldn't be reversed by the time AV finally woke up and realized Girardi and Staal were literally giving games away and Yandle was wasting away on the 3rd pair.

Teams that win championships get the kind of leeway AV gave his guys this year. They haven't won anything and they should have been held to a lower standard.

I think there was this prevailing thought throughout the organization that a team with that kind of experience would turn it on, eventually. But more importantly, Im not so sure what wholesale changes were even available to be made once it became abundantly clear that this team was worse than the previous 2. Then again, maybe Im just living in the real world and some of you tough guys really would've shipped Girardi off to Siberia if given the chance.

If there's actually coaches and GMs that believe this nonsense they don't deserve jobs in pro sports. There's no team in professional sports that just flips a switch and starts playing NHL hockey half way through the year. And even if the Rangers could do that, the longest tenured skaters were the ones that were problematic and the biggest culprit of them slouching in the standings.

You're living in a conservative yet abrasive world of opinions that you don't have to give because really all you do is misconstrue everyone else's words so you can make everyone but you look like an idiot and it's not clever.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Monday morning quarterbacking my ****ing ass. There was a loud contingent saying the team was a bit lucky and the defense was worse than appeared and would only continue to get worse. And that's exactly what happened.

Yup. The only one using revisionist history is BRB. There must have been a dozen of us who had concerns about that team and it continued this season

 

[Captain Lindy]

Whether you go by the eye test, advanced stats, or both, I dont think anyone is arguing that the team was not good last season. Thats not what my comment was about. It was more about how many posters, the one I quoted perhaps being the biggest culprit, leaving the surly bonds of reality about what realistically was going to be done last season at the first signs of poor advanced statistics and a defense corp that was sliding.

This was a team coming off a year of accomplishments between 2014 to 2015 -- a SCF appearance, a President's trophy, and ECF Game 7 appearance. They were going to get the benefit of the doubt this last season, and quite frankly they deserved it. I think there was this prevailing thought throughout the organization that a team with that kind of experience would turn it on, eventually. But more importantly, Im not so sure what wholesale changes were even available to be made once it became abundantly clear that this team was worse than the previous 2. Then again, maybe Im just living in the real world and some of you tough guys really would've shipped Girardi off to Siberia if given the chance.

In any event, that core group got "one more kick at the can" as AV put it. If there aren't some large changes this offseason, then I'll have a problem with it.

I'm anxious for the offseason to start for the league. I hope both conference finals are decided quickly and so is the Cup Final. Get the popcorn this summer.

 

[Captain Lindy]

"So many goals-against after goals-for,
so many goals allowed in bunches,
so many late game-tying or -winning goals-against,
pitiful power play, lame PK,
so many long shifts where they could never get the puck out of their zone,
so many O-zone shifts with no pressure"



yes, agreed, over time, coaching should have been able to address all of that, much more than they did, whether it was personnel, roles, system, set plays, etc

Exactly. It wasn't nipped in the bud. It manifested itself into a 5-game exit in the playoffs.

 

[smoneil]

Yup. The only one using revisionist history is BRB. There must have been a dozen of us who had concerns about that team and it continued this season

He's blatantly trolling at this point. He's ignoring every point raised about AV's system, revising history to claim that people are MMQBing, and consistently ignoring points that show that the issues this year weren't just issues THIS YEAR. There are valid reasons that AV should have been fired during the season. There are no good reasons for AV to be the coach of this team moving forward. None. No matter how you approach the 2016-17 NYR, AV behind the bench is a problem.

 

[Machinehead]

Today is National Turtle Day, so there's that.

 

[Ori]

oh boy another year with AV.
Do you think the Rangers org. going to force some changes with how they are playing hockey, or is it the same old with how AV approach his system upon the players without any adjustments from the org.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

oh boy another year with AV.
Do you think the Rangers org. going to force some changes with how they are playing hockey, or is it the same old with how AV approach his system upon the players without any adjustments from the org.

I think the Rangers org has seen what AV can do with a competent line up.

This summer will be on the players. This group got their "one last kick at the can" and came up short.

 

[Ori]

I think the Rangers org has seen what AV can do with a competent line up.

This summer will be on the players. This group got their "one last kick at the can" and came up short.

Yeah, I am curious if we have enough quality players next season to compete for another stanley cup final. And without some major trade moves I think we are strong favourite to reach the playoffs next year as well.
I think Eric is gone though he mentioned in his last interview he want a big role contract, and I doubt the Rangers can afford him.

But what we need in my opinion is a good finisher, a sniper and maybe Buch is the answ. even though he is still very young.

 

[True Blue]

It's also possible the coach deserves some credit for the team's great record the first part of the season even thought the roster was 'not quite right.'

He does. However, I put that thanks squarely on Henke. He singlehandedly bailed the team out during that stretch .

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

He's blatantly trolling at this point. He's ignoring every point raised about AV's system, revising history to claim that people are MMQBing, and consistently ignoring points that show that the issues this year weren't just issues THIS YEAR. There are valid reasons that AV should have been fired during the season. There are no good reasons for AV to be the coach of this team moving forward. None. No matter how you approach the 2016-17 NYR, AV behind the bench is a problem.

Yeah, but Im the one trolling.

You guys like to pat yourselves on the back about pointing out issues prior to last season. Congratulations - hopefully that makes you feel smart or whatever, even though the vast majority of once-contending teams head for a downward spiral eventually. The bottom line is the team went to the final and game 7 of the ECF in consecutive seasons, to which the coach doesn't seem to get an ounce of credit. I find your "I told you so" antics to be opportunistic and lacking any real context to what this team has done the last few years under AV.

For posters like yourself and the other guy, who seemingly want to position yourselves as the smartest guys in the room, you'd think you wouldn't be dumb enough to hitch your wagon to an argument that this team is just a new coach away from contending again