Player Discussion Alain Vigneault: Part III

[smoneil]

Muckler, Low, Trots, Sather, Renney, Torts, Vig. That's 7 O'neil.

And your idea or 'very similar success' is off.

I never disputed the 7 in 16 number. Just pointed out the fact that presenting it in that way was incredibly dishonest. If you want to include Muckler, it really should have been 7 in 18 (going back to essentially one day before he was fired is ridiculous). And again, it's been 3 over the last 12, which completely goes against your trend.

And "very similar success" is pretty damned apt if you ask me. Both had a President's trophy-level regular season. Both went to the ECF. AV did go to the SCF with a far superior roster than anything Torts had, but his turtle-focused strategy is what lost the team a real chance in that series. Torts was fired after a second round exit, and NONE of his teams were straight embarrassed out of the post-season like this year's Rangers (same for Renney).

AV got a significantly better product and produced a slightly better result--with the exception of this year, where his team looked worse than any Rangers team since the 04 lockout.

 

[Bluenote13]

I never disputed the 7 in 16 number. Just pointed out the fact that presenting it in that way was incredibly dishonest. If you want to include Muckler, it really should have been 7 in 18 (going back to essentially one day before he was fired is ridiculous). And again, it's been 3 over the last 12, which completely goes against your trend.

And "very similar success" is pretty damned apt if you ask me. Both had a President's trophy-level regular season. Both went to the ECF. AV did go to the SCF with a far superior roster than anything Torts had, but his turtle-focused strategy is what lost the team a real chance in that series. Torts was fired after a second round exit, and NONE of his teams were straight embarrassed out of the post-season like this year's Rangers (same for Renney).

AV got a significantly better product and produced a slightly better result--with the exception of this year, where his team looked worse than any Rangers team since the 04 lockout.

Highly debatable.

 

[ArPanet]

This past season was Renneyesque in the way that AV seemed to have little to no influence on effort.

 

[smoneil]

Highly debatable.

I guess, but it all comes down to the epic and regular defensive breakdowns. I've been watching hockey since 1983. I've never seen any team give up wide open chances right in front of the goal with such regularity. And it always seemed to be the other team's top offensive player getting left wide open. I've seen chances like that here and there, but it happened so often this year that it seemed like it was part of the freaking game plan. We've had many years since the lockout where the offense was worse than this year's team, but the defense has never been close to this bad over the course of a full season post-lockout. If not for Lundqvist and Raanta in the first six weeks of the season, the Rangers would have been in the lottery.

 

[n8]

Who should replace AV?

so sad we missed the Lindy Ruff train.

 

[Inferno]

so sad we missed the Lindy Ruff train.

lindy aint bad....Laviolette is a great coach too.

 

[cwede]

Lindy ain't bad....Laviolette is a great coach too.

and both wore Blueshirts

 

[True Blue]

lindy aint bad....Laviolette is a great coach too.

Would have taken both. Today, I would happily cheerlead for Crawford.

I also like Carlyle & Ron Wilson. Easkins was considered a hot item at one point. He deserves another chance. Travis Green is getting good reviews. Dave Lowry. I do not think that Todd Richards would be a bad choice. Berube will wind up getting chances.

 

[I Eat Crow]

I guess, but it all comes down to the epic and regular defensive breakdowns. I've been watching hockey since 1983. I've never seen any team give up wide open chances right in front of the goal with such regularity. And it always seemed to be the other team's top offensive player getting left wide open. I've seen chances like that here and there, but it happened so often this year that it seemed like it was part of the freaking game plan. We've had many years since the lockout where the offense was worse than this year's team, but the defense has never been close to this bad over the course of a full season post-lockout. If not for Lundqvist and Raanta in the first six weeks of the season, the Rangers would have been in the lottery.

Not sure about lottery pick, but they would have missed the playoffs for sure. Probably would have ended up in the 10-13 range.

This year's iteration of the team was pretty bad. I think only the 2009-10 team was close.

 

[NYRFAN218]

Not sure about lottery pick, but they would have missed the playoffs for sure. Probably would have ended up in the 10-13 range.

This year's iteration of the team was pretty bad. I think only the 2009-10 team was close.

08-09 and 09-10 teams were still the worst teams to date post lockout. But considering the talent level and expectations on this past years team, they were by far the most disappointing and it really isn't even close.

 

[I Eat Crow]

08-09 and 09-10 teams were still the worst teams to date post lockout. But considering the talent level and expectations on this past years team, they were by far the most disappointing and it really isn't even close.

Absolutely agree. It actually was pretty remarkable that those teams were even close to getting into the playoffs.

Given the amount of talent on this team, along with coaching and front office ineptitude, made this year's iteration much more painful to watch.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Absolutely agree. It actually was pretty remarkable that those teams were even close to getting into the playoffs.

Given the amount of talent on this team, along with coaching and front office ineptitude, made this year's iteration much more painful to watch.

Unfortunately too much of the talent on this team is beyond their shelf life date. A number of guys seem to have gotten old right in front of our eyes. Ineptitude was not limited to management.

Debating the percentage of blame to allocate to ED/coach/player is very subjective. Many posters apply that allocation in whatever way fits their agenda.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Unfortunately too much of the talent on this team is beyond their shelf life date. A number of guys seem to have gotten old right in front of our eyes. Ineptitude was not limited to management.

Debating the percentage of blame to allocate to ED/coach/player is very subjective. Many posters apply that allocation in whatever way fits their agenda.

With the news that the coaching staff is going to remain intact, it would seem that the front office feels that the players are the ones to blame.

So be it. To me, that signals quite a bit of player movement to come this summer.

 

[TheTakedown]

With the news that the coaching staff is going to remain intact, it would seem that the front office feels that the players are the ones to blame.

So be it. To me, that signals quite a bit of player movement to come this summer.

I'm OK with that... unfortunately I think both the players AND AV are the problem ... but what do I know I'm not an NHL coach...

 

[mrmel329]

The problem with AV is he doesn't adapt to his personnel but tries to hammer square pieces into circular holes. Not happy he's back.

 

[smoneil]

With the news that the coaching staff is going to remain intact, it would seem that the front office feels that the players are the ones to blame.

So be it. To me, that signals quite a bit of player movement to come this summer.

I'm OK with that... unfortunately I think both the players AND AV are the problem ... but what do I know I'm not an NHL coach...

The problem with taking the "the players are the sole reason for failure" approach is twofold.

1- I think fans here have dreams that such an approach will result in the front office moving out all of the players they hate while keeping the ones that they love. You might not like who AV considers "problem" players. A lot of us are thinking "move Girardi/Staal/Nash." AV is likely more thinking "move McIlrath/Lindberg/Kreider/Miller."


2- One of the biggest problems with AV's defensive system is that it only works when you have fast, skilled defensemen with elite skating ability. We have one of those. They tend to be rare, expensive and difficult to find. Anyone can win with a defense full of top-pair skill-set guys.


I've got a very bad feeling that this decision to keep AV is going to put us several years further back than we are right now.

 

[aufheben]

08-09 and 09-10 teams were still the worst teams to date post lockout. But considering the talent level and expectations on this past years team, they were by far the most disappointing and it really isn't even close.

There were warning signs from the 2014-15 season, but even then, they (2015-16) were just so pitiful in various areas.

 

[Bluenote13]

08-09 and 09-10 teams were still the worst teams to date post lockout. But considering the talent level and expectations on this past years team, they were by far the most disappointing and it really isn't even close.

What expectations ? The fans expectations ?

What team has gone to the Finals or conference finals 4 years in a row ? Isn't THAT an unreal expectation ??

This team had overachieved, yet some feel we were robbed of something we were owed.

AV gonna put us years back ?? Even the worst Ranger coaches I've seen throughout history have not done that, it's always been whoever the bonehead is sitting in the GM's seat.

 

[NYRFAN218]

What expectations ? The fans expectations ?

What team has gone to the Finals or conference finals 4 years in a row ? Isn't THAT an unreal expectation ??

This team had overachieved, yet some feel we were robbed of something we were owed.

AV gonna put us years back ?? Even the worst Ranger coaches I've seen throughout history have not done that, it's always been whoever the bonehead is sitting in the GM's seat.

I didn't think this team was a Cup team. But I also didn't think this was a team that would play as poorly as it did for large stretches of the season and then get flat out embarrassed in the playoffs. It would have been 3 years for Conference Finals or further (2013 was a 2nd round exit) and the Kings just did it recently.

However you want to frame what the Rangers did in the past whether it be overachieving or what is fine, but to say they did anything but underachieve this past year would be a lie. This was the biggest underachieveing team in 10+ years with the talent they had and brought back from last year.

 

[True Blue]

What expectations ? The fans expectations ?

Maybe? I would say that there was a view prior to last year that the team was flawed and that Sather did not do a good job in plugging the holes. However, when some the play of some players was outright putrid and some whose depreciation was greatly accelerated, something needed to be tried a little differently. Because what worked for the last several years (Henke being a hockey god among some reasons) was clearly not working this year. And to keep doing the same thing over and over and over again, just to continue to see it not work? Well, doesn't that personify insanity?

 

[Bluenote13]

Maybe? I would say that there was a view prior to last year that the team was flawed and that Sather did not do a good job in plugging the holes. However, when some the play of some players was outright putrid and some whose depreciation was greatly accelerated, something needed to be tried a little differently. Because what worked for the last several years (Henke being a hockey god among some reasons) was clearly not working this year. And to keep doing the same thing over and over and over again, just to continue to see it not work? Well, doesn't that personify insanity?

Okay firstly let's address the whole 'when players started playing putrid and when obvious changes need to be made he didn't make changes'. Every time you mention it it's a very black and white statement you don't really say what the state of the rest of the team was at the moment, we're guys hurt or guys playing out of position were rookies involved, I mean that stuff does matter , and give you a full picture rather than a one-line accusation. Also you've been a hockey fan for a while you have never noticed longtime coaches sticking with veterans trying to get them going, sometimes over a full season, it happens all the time.

Secondly, I don't know about you but I've seen plenty of successful people do the same thing over and over again because sometimes what gets you there is always your best bet, so does playing the higher percentage, and I'm not talking possession numbers, I mean traditionally speaking.

 

[True Blue]

Okay firstly let's address the whole 'when players started playing putrid and when obvious changes need to be made he didn't make changes'. Every time you mention it it's a very black and white statement you don't really say what the state of the rest of the team was at the moment, we're guys hurt or guys playing out of position were rookies involved, I mean that stuff does matter , and give you a full picture rather than a one-line accusation. Also you've been a hockey fan for a while you have never noticed longtime coaches sticking with veterans trying to get them going, sometimes over a full season, it happens all the time.

Secondly, I don't know about you but I've seen plenty of successful people do the same thing over and over again because sometimes what gets you there is always your best bet, so does playing the higher percentage, and I'm not talking possession numbers, I mean traditionally speaking.

Fair, fair.

I would say that for whatever reasons, sticking with the status quo was completely apparent that it was not working. I think that it is one thing to be knee-jerk and another to eventually call a spade a spade. Overplaying Boyle was case and point on that.

 

[Bluenote13]

Fair, fair.

I would say that for whatever reasons, sticking with the status quo was completely apparent that it was not working. I think that it is one thing to be knee-jerk and another to eventually call a spade a spade. Overplaying Boyle was case and point on that.

And your opinion is fair too, he definitely did some questionable stuff but to say that it was insane I mean I could show you a history of insane coaches if that's the case

 

[True Blue]

And your opinion is fair too, he definitely did some questionable stuff but to say that it was insane I mean I could show you a history of insane coaches if that's the case

Trotting out Muckler, are you?

 

[Inferno]

And your opinion is fair too, he definitely did some questionable stuff but to say that it was insane I mean I could show you a history of insane coaches if that's the case

the stuff he did defied any and all rational thought whatsoever...it screamed of bias and/or preferential treatment.

ive seen the argument that AV likes players that skate...and yet he kept giving DG and MS tons of ice time...both are slugs. Yandle can skate as well as anyone but got less minutes than both.

so why did the 2 guys that were struggling by any measure get preferential treatment?

why did Dan Boyle move to the right side to play with McIlrath when Yandle and McIlrath worked so well? if youre going to move a LHD to the right side wouldnt it make more sense to move a guy over whose done it a ton? Like a Yandle or a McDonagh?

i mean i can go on and on...and i feel like thats all ive done in this thread is go over a laundry list of AV eff ups. but im tired of it, and i know its a losing battle.

one of the few things he did right this year was calling out Hayes in public..i think Hayes needed that and he seemed to respond. Accountability works. but it needs to be appropriate to the situation. I wouldnt have called out Girardi for sucking...his effort level, heart, and desire would NEVER be questioned with anyone who has half a brain...but for christ sake cut the guys minutes and assignment difficulty down. alleviate the problem with matchups, minutes, and deployment.

now im not sure if thats Ulf or AV who does that, but in the end the head coach is responsible for all that, even if his minions are the ones who make the calls. he needs to see what 99% of this board and the rational fan base can see.

i think most of us agree that this was a lost season w/ or w/o AVs asinine decision making. but he certainly didnt do much to alleviate the difficulties his players were having.