AHL Future in Binghamton

[Nightsquad]

The Devils organization if they should decide to unload their AHL franchise to a group from Binghamton to save money for rebuild purposes its not a really huge loss for Albany as I see it. Yea it would be a shame but for the just over 3000 loyal AHL faithful it would be but its not a huge loss for Albany. The team barely advertises in Albany, they barely get media coverage, the team only broadcasts half their games on the radio (most are only away games and if the Giants or Yankees are playing ESPN radio doesn't broadcast the A-Devils), the organization refuses to relent on the 5 PM start for every Saturday night home game (they say for practice and development purposes), and walkup fans can expect to pay $27 for a ticket on game night which is absurd for minor league sports.

Previous poster argued Adirondack, Manchester, Portland, Binghamton would be better but that's not an argument which holds much merit. Albany has better facilities and is much better centrally located. Not only does it sit at the east west crossroads of the northeast also has pretty good domestic airport. In Albany if you advertise, treat the fans well, field a competitive team, and provide a product that particular market perceives as a good value then Albany tends to rally behind. Valleycats baseball, Siena Basketball, Union Hockey, UAlbany basketball, Firebirds of the arena football league, old River Rats, and Adirondack Red Wings (Adirondack is Albany's AHL territory) all did reasonably well and were well regarded by media and fans. Its those intangibles that make Albany no worse then the above towns. Manchester and Adirondack to date are ECHL disasters. Fans in Manchester have gotten over minor league hockey and appear to have gravitated to college hockey as its a very good value in terms of product quality and cost to attend. Half the AHL clubs nowadays go through the motions for development purpose. No longer do you see moves made (trades or free agent signings) to win games at the AHL level, it is just not the standard anymore and Albany fans know it after watching the Devils fail to playoff qualify for a decade and a half.

I think Albany is in an okay position no matter what the outcome is. If the Devils stay put they really need to make adjustments. The first thing they did this off season was hike walkup prices in Albany to almost $30. They really need to reach out and advertise in that region but then again the media in that market is all about basketball or Union Hockey. The ECHL in Glens Falls doesn't get any help from Albany's media either, basically none yet Albany and Glens Falls appear to have a nice little quasi affiliation going. Albany next fall will have a 20 million dollar makeover of the arena and I think among hockey fans the NY Rangers would find Albany appealing and it looks as though the Capital Region of NY probably has the largest Ranger fans base north Westchester & Rockland counties. While everyone is leaving New York in large numbers the greater Albany area is actually gaining with heavy losses of population coming from Central Upstate NY, Western Upstate NY, and the South Tiers of Upstate NY. In closing, other then a group from Binghamton willing to relieve the NJ Devils of the costs of owning and piece meal operating their AHL team like they have done in Albany could very well be a blessing in disguise. It would be nice to see the Devils organization stay and maybe rename the club the River Rats, adjust prices, listen to what the fans want, and see them remain for many years to come as Albany has produced a lot of NHL talent over its 20 something years. Should the Devils franchise relocate I don't give it but a season or two at the most that the arena would go dark from hockey. Minor league hockey doesn't have the economic impact some would try to suggest, its more about civic pride and an entertainment option. Albany has way more entertainment options then probably Binghamton, Utica, Manchester, Portland Maine combined and next year will have a renovated arena, attached convention center, and attached Mariott hotel in a location which will make attractive for another team. In the new AHL/ECHL its all about movement, their is no market loyalty anymore.

This is how it should be done in Albany

http://thehockeywriters.com/albany-river-rats-coming-back/

 

[go comets]

The days of the small, less travel ahl is over. In a year or two both Utica and Albany will most likely be gone. So that will leave teams more spread out, more travel, more nights in hotels. 3 Canadian teams with the remaining 3 ny teams and probably Cleveland. Then the 3 pa teams and 4 new England teams.

 

[Ski]

The Devils organization if they should decide to unload their AHL franchise to a group from Binghamton to save money for rebuild purposes its not a really huge loss for Albany as I see it. Yea it would be a shame but for the just over 3000 loyal AHL faithful it would be but its not a huge loss for Albany. The team barely advertises in Albany, they barely get media coverage, the team only broadcasts half their games on the radio (most are only away games and if the Giants or Yankees are playing ESPN radio doesn't broadcast the A-Devils), the organization refuses to relent on the 5 PM start for every Saturday night home game (they say for practice and development purposes), and walkup fans can expect to pay $27 for a ticket on game night which is absurd for minor league sports.

Previous poster argued Adirondack, Manchester, Portland, Binghamton would be better but that's not an argument which holds much merit. Albany has better facilities and is much better centrally located. Not only does it sit at the east west crossroads of the northeast also has pretty good domestic airport. In Albany if you advertise, treat the fans well, field a competitive team, and provide a product that particular market perceives as a good value then Albany tends to rally behind. Valleycats baseball, Siena Basketball, Union Hockey, UAlbany basketball, Firebirds of the arena football league, old River Rats, and Adirondack Red Wings (Adirondack is Albany's AHL territory) all did reasonably well and were well regarded by media and fans. Its those intangibles that make Albany no worse then the above towns. Manchester and Adirondack to date are ECHL disasters. Fans in Manchester have gotten over minor league hockey and appear to have gravitated to college hockey as its a very good value in terms of product quality and cost to attend. Half the AHL clubs nowadays go through the motions for development purpose. No longer do you see moves made (trades or free agent signings) to win games at the AHL level, it is just not the standard anymore and Albany fans know it after watching the Devils fail to playoff qualify for a decade and a half.

I think Albany is in an okay position no matter what the outcome is. If the Devils stay put they really need to make adjustments. The first thing they did this off season was hike walkup prices in Albany to almost $30. They really need to reach out and advertise in that region but then again the media in that market is all about basketball or Union Hockey. The ECHL in Glens Falls doesn't get any help from Albany's media either, basically none yet Albany and Glens Falls appear to have a nice little quasi affiliation going. Albany next fall will have a 20 million dollar makeover of the arena and I think among hockey fans the NY Rangers would find Albany appealing and it looks as though the Capital Region of NY probably has the largest Ranger fans base north Westchester & Rockland counties. While everyone is leaving New York in large numbers the greater Albany area is actually gaining with heavy losses of population coming from Central Upstate NY, Western Upstate NY, and the South Tiers of Upstate NY. In closing, other then a group from Binghamton willing to relieve the NJ Devils of the costs of owning and piece meal operating their AHL team like they have done in Albany could very well be a blessing in disguise. It would be nice to see the Devils organization stay and maybe rename the club the River Rats, adjust prices, listen to what the fans want, and see them remain for many years to come as Albany has produced a lot of NHL talent over its 20 something years. Should the Devils franchise relocate I don't give it but a season or two at the most that the arena would go dark from hockey. Minor league hockey doesn't have the economic impact some would try to suggest, its more about civic pride and an entertainment option. Albany has way more entertainment options then probably Binghamton, Utica, Manchester, Portland Maine combined and next year will have a renovated arena, attached convention center, and attached Mariott hotel in a location which will make attractive for another team. In the new AHL/ECHL its all about movement, their is no market loyalty anymore.

There are big plans ahead for the Binghamton area that are under-wraps at the moment with a group of Meadowlands' development in the forefront that has currently invested in the near-by Tioga Downs Casino.

 

[Nightsquad]

There are big plans ahead for the Binghamton area that are under-wraps at the moment with a group of Meadowlands' development in the forefront that has currently invested in the near-by Tioga Downs Casino.

That's good news for Binghamton but what about 15 minutes away from Albany over in Downtown Schenectady? The new Rivers Casino and Resort at Mohawk Harbor is going to dwarf Tioga Downs. Located less then half hour north of Albany is Saratoga, where the current Saratoga Casino and Hotel is located. Albany has two casinos located within half hour drive. Casinos do not generate hockey fan support, otherwise Albany would be drawing 6000 fans per game. An expanded Tioga Downs might be good for sponsorship, but it wont likely lead to filled seats at Binghamton Senator or B-Devils games. It might actually hurt the AHL and possibly ECHL team in Elmira. Older fans of drinking age could be drawn away from the hassle of going to downtown Binghamton, paying to park etc opting instead to go do some gambling, catch some better dining options, and catching live entertainment which casinos always have going on.

 

[go comets]

That's good news for Binghamton but what about 15 minutes away from Albany over in Downtown Schenectady? The new Rivers Casino and Resort at Mohawk Harbor is going to dwarf Tioga Downs. Located less then half hour north of Albany is Saratoga, where the current Saratoga Casino and Hotel is located. Albany has two casinos located within half hour drive. Casinos do not generate hockey fan support, otherwise Albany would be drawing 6000 fans per game. An expanded Tioga Downs might be good for sponsorship, but it wont likely lead to filled seats at Binghamton Senator or B-Devils games. It might actually hurt the AHL and possibly ECHL team in Elmira. Older fans of drinking age could be drawn away from the hassle of going to downtown Binghamton, paying to park etc opting instead to go do some gambling, catch some better dining options, and catching live entertainment which casinos always have going on.

My experience is that hockey fans show up to games regardless of what is going on around any arena. It's the ahl, either a city supports or does not. If someone wants to go to a casino, they are not going to go to a hockey game, and vise versa...

I think you will have an NHL example in Vegas soon......

 

[Nightsquad]

My experience is that hockey fans show up to games regardless of what is going on around any arena. It's the ahl, either a city supports or does not. If someone wants to go to a casino, they are not going to go to a hockey game, and vise versa...

I think you will have an NHL example in Vegas soon......

Exactly my point, a nearby casino doesn't translate into support for at least minor league hockey. The Vegas NHL team is going to be subsidized heavily as an entertainment option. Vegas will be okay because the city population alone will attend games, throw in the comp tickets the casinos and resorts give out and Vegas will be well attended. Minor league markets on the other hand may benefit from an advertising partnership but it wont translate into hundred let alone a thousand more fans per game. Now all Vegas has to do is win their logo fight with that college from of all places Albany NY lol.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

And Binghamton won a Calder Cup and couldn't fill their 4800 seat building that season or the following season

I don't get the hand-wringing about a difference of ~200 people in a building on average. 3400 people is "no one" but 3700 isn't?

If Springfield (another minor league market that got burned by crappy circumstances) gets to stay in the AHL, then why should Albany get kicked out?

Thing about these kind of discussions, they help nothing and no one and go nowhere.

Yet you bring them up. And Albany was a cup as well. Albany doesn't draw for whatever reason as compared to those other cities.

And Albany has the arena to have a higher attendance. Bingo can only draw 4800 on a weekend to help bring up their average attendance from those weekday games where they draw 2,000 people. There is no way they could physically or mathematically get the average attendance much higher. e.g. they draw 2,000 on Wednesday and 4800 on Saturday, average attendance is 3400.

A team like Chicago on the other hand, where they draw 2,000 during the week can draw 18,000 on the weekend. if they sold out. e.g. They draw 2,000 on Wednesday and draw 11,000 on Saturday their average attendance is 6,500.

Albany has an arena that can sea 14,000 for hockey. So if Albany drew 2,000 on a Wednesday they could draw up to 14,000 on a Saturday. e.g. 2,000 Wednesday night and 9,000 Saturday night would be average attendance of 5,500.

Fact is, the other cities draw better and Albany, though Albany could physically draw more, they do not. This isn't about whether or not Albany should have a team, it is just comparing the two on attendance numbers the other cities support and therefore deserve a team more than Albany. This includes Bingo.

 

[mmazz22]

Well said Hawk.
So much of this isnt who deserves a team. Alot of it is luck. Does a city have a local someone to step up. Bing owners could have taken the pay day and went off into the sunset with there cash out. Were just lucky that they chose to keep going. Springfield got lucky that the group of investorst chose to keep a team there. If the Devils leave Albany for Bing , Albany was just in unlucky circumstances.

 

[Nightsquad]

Yet you bring them up. And Albany was a cup as well. Albany doesn't draw for whatever reason as compared to those other cities.

And Albany has the arena to have a higher attendance. Bingo can only draw 4800 on a weekend to help bring up their average attendance from those weekday games where they draw 2,000 people. There is no way they could physically or mathematically get the average attendance much higher. e.g. they draw 2,000 on Wednesday and 4800 on Saturday, average attendance is 3400.

A team like Chicago on the other hand, where they draw 2,000 during the week can draw 18,000 on the weekend. if they sold out. e.g. They draw 2,000 on Wednesday and draw 11,000 on Saturday their average attendance is 6,500.

Albany has an arena that can sea 14,000 for hockey. So if Albany drew 2,000 on a Wednesday they could draw up to 14,000 on a Saturday. e.g. 2,000 Wednesday night and 9,000 Saturday night would be average attendance of 5,500.

Fact is, the other cities draw better and Albany, though Albany could physically draw more, they do not. This isn't about whether or not Albany should have a team, it is just comparing the two on attendance numbers the other cities support and therefore deserve a team more than Albany. This includes Bingo.

Albany doesn't even sit close to 14,000 for hockey, that's just not accurate. The arena itself seats around 14,000 between the upper sections, lower section, and luxury seats combined. However Albany being a smaller market with what most realize now is an overbuilt arena (thanks to liberal tax payers up that way) negotiates with the team a lease based on seating for about 6500 because the county of Albany installed a curtain system used for most events held at the arena, not just hockey. The curtain system closes up the upper bowl leaving the bottom half with a seating capacity of 6,500. If Albany last several years averages just over 3,000 fans that leaves some room for improvement should the Devils extend an olive branch and rebuild the River Rats brand and honor its legacy, or should the NY Rangers end up settling in Albany. Most minor league hockey teams don't average 6500 fans anyway so a seating capacity of 6500 in a smaller city like Albany is ideal. Don't think for one second the Devils pay a lease that's equivalent to a 14,000 seat arena, that just doesn't happen. Albany's arena is a huge draw for concerts more so then most upstate cities. Albany attracts more concerts then larger cities such as Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, and larger nearby cities such as Springfield, Providence, Hartford, and Worcester. Albany's arena is a money maker, it's one of those more profitable arenas in the region and that is a fact. No longer do county taxpayers subsidize that building, thanks to a steady schedule of good concerts that building is not in the negative. Minor league hockey hasn't been a huge draw but the building itself makes a nice profit for the county. To suggest Albany can draw 14,000 on a weekend to make up for 2,000 on a midweek night while certainly ambitious and a perfect world scenario it just won't happen anywhere in minor league hockey. The big draws out west and even Hershey doesn't pull in close to 14,000 lol. If the major cities of the AHL don't draw over 10,000 on a regular basis there is no way smaller city like Albany if going pull in 14,000. Even in the good old days of the Adirondack Red Wings and Albany River Rats attendance on a Saturday night occasionally brought in around 10,000 or more fans but that was before the rise of UAlbany basketball going DI and the rise of Union College as a DI product let alone a program capable of being an ECACHL powerhouse and a National Championship. If Albany can get itself to where they draw maybe 4000 to 5000 average that's a reasonable expectation.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Albany doesn't even sit close to 14,000 for hockey, that's just not accurate. The arena itself seats around 14,000 between the upper sections, lower section, and luxury seats combined. However Albany being a smaller market with what most realize now is an overbuilt arena (thanks to liberal tax payers up that way) negotiates with the team a lease based on seating for about 6500 because the county of Albany installed a curtain system used for most events held at the arena, not just hockey. The curtain system closes up the upper bowl leaving the bottom half with a seating capacity of 6,500. If Albany last several years averages just over 3,000 fans that leaves some room for improvement should the Devils extend an olive branch and rebuild the River Rats brand and honor its legacy, or should the NY Rangers end up settling in Albany. Most minor league hockey teams don't average 6500 fans anyway so a seating capacity of 6500 in a smaller city like Albany is ideal. Don't think for one second the Devils pay a lease that's equivalent to a 14,000 seat arena, that just doesn't happen. Albany's arena is a huge draw for concerts more so then most upstate cities. Albany attracts more concerts then larger cities such as Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, and larger nearby cities such as Springfield, Providence, Hartford, and Worcester. Albany's arena is a money maker, it's one of those more profitable arenas in the region and that is a fact. No longer do county taxpayers subsidize that building, thanks to a steady schedule of good concerts that building is not in the negative. Minor league hockey hasn't been a huge draw but the building itself makes a nice profit for the county. To suggest Albany can draw 14,000 on a weekend to make up for 2,000 on a midweek night while certainly ambitious and a perfect world scenario it just won't happen anywhere in minor league hockey. The big draws out west and even Hershey doesn't pull in close to 14,000 lol. If the major cities of the AHL don't draw over 10,000 on a regular basis there is no way smaller city like Albany if going pull in 14,000. Even in the good old days of the Adirondack Red Wings and Albany River Rats attendance on a Saturday night occasionally brought in around 10,000 or more fans but that was before the rise of UAlbany basketball going DI and the rise of Union College as a DI product let alone a program capable of being an ECACHL powerhouse and a National Championship. If Albany can get itself to where they draw maybe 4000 to 5000 average that's a reasonable expectation.

So, because they curtain off the upper arena, it can never be used for hockey? We are not talking about what they pay for lease, we are talking about what the arena seats. The Allstate in Chicago seats over 16,000 (I think 18,000). Because the Devils chose not to use the 14,000 doesn't mean the arena doesn't seat 14,000.

And even if we go with your number, Albany STILL has a physical opportunity to draw more than those other teams but don't.

 

[Woo Hockey]

Shared a Wolf Pack Blogger's post about this in here a few weeks ago but now that's official.

 

[zeeto]

I'm not slagging Bingo, just pushing against the Albany slagging which is becoming absurd, with the arbitrary metrics being thrown about. I don't care who sells out or gets more media coverage or what, not relevant. "Deserving" has got nothing to do with it at the NHL, AHL, any level.

Albany's team has had poor marketing to put it lightly, missed the playoffs regularly as well.

I was at the Utica/Albany game last month wearing my Devils jersey and several of the fans in the building (5 occurrences in total) felt the need to stop me or stop by my seat to tell me how crappy my building is and now there's nobody in it, for what purpose?

it was probably one of my relatives Even though Utica picked up the comets there still people who are bitter about the devil's leaving for Albany ~25 years ago.

 

[Agalloch]

Shared a Wolf Pack Blogger's post about this in here a few weeks ago but now that's official.

Well NJD seem to be the team coming to Binghamton.

 

[Ski]

That's good news for Binghamton but what about 15 minutes away from Albany over in Downtown Schenectady? The new Rivers Casino and Resort at Mohawk Harbor is going to dwarf Tioga Downs. Located less then half hour north of Albany is Saratoga, where the current Saratoga Casino and Hotel is located. Albany has two casinos located within half hour drive. Casinos do not generate hockey fan support, otherwise Albany would be drawing 6000 fans per game. An expanded Tioga Downs might be good for sponsorship, but it wont likely lead to filled seats at Binghamton Senator or B-Devils games. It might actually hurt the AHL and possibly ECHL team in Elmira. Older fans of drinking age could be drawn away from the hassle of going to downtown Binghamton, paying to park etc opting instead to go do some gambling, catch some better dining options, and catching live entertainment which casinos always have going on.

Just relaying the facts.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Well NJD seem to be the team coming to Binghamton.

source?, I don't believe the Devils are going anywhere unless Mitchell buys it outright, even then, do we know he stopped Ottawa from buying the current franchise?

the same contract exists in both Albany and Hartford, THE question now becomes this: will MSG extend the Pack beyond 17/18 w/ Spectra and the XL Center? Albany's lease was extended back in 2016 to be renewed after 2018/19

 

[Devils Dominion]

Albany defeats Bingo 3-2 tonight.

 

[Nightsquad]

Albany defeats Bingo 3-2 tonight.

In front of a capacity crowd of 3578??? Thought that arena seats 4679 for hockey? They must be using the term capacity to impress the Devils organization. Actually, if the Devils want to shed expense and sell their AHL franchise to the group from Binghamton the Devils organization wont care if they draw 2000 or 4679 because the finances wont be their problem, they will still get affiliation fees from Mitchell & Company. Second, ironically the Devils selling the franchise to the Binghamton group will buck the trend of NHL teams owning and operating their AHL clubs which I believe has had a negative impact around most of the AHL teams. When your AHL ownership or front office staff have no communities ties to its respective AHL city within years the fans become disconnected and incentive to win or generally do right by the fan base diminishes sadly.

 

[go comets]

In front of a capacity crowd of 3578??? Thought that arena seats 4679 for hockey? They must be using the term capacity to impress the Devils organization. Actually, if the Devils want to shed expense and sell their AHL franchise to the group from Binghamton the Devils organization wont care if they draw 2000 or 4679 because the finances wont be their problem, they will still get affiliation fees from Mitchell & Company. Second, ironically the Devils selling the franchise to the Binghamton group will buck the trend of NHL teams owning and operating their AHL clubs which I believe has had a negative impact around most of the AHL teams. When your AHL ownership or front office staff have no communities ties to its respective AHL city within years the fans become disconnected and incentive to win or generally do right by the fan base diminishes sadly.

I doubt New Jersey is selling their AHL Franchise. It's more along the lines of new Jersey will own it and Bingo will run the off ice side of things like the Canucks do with Utica.

 

[ek93]

In front of a capacity crowd of 3578??? Thought that arena seats 4679 for hockey? They must be using the term capacity to impress the Devils organization. Actually, if the Devils want to shed expense and sell their AHL franchise to the group from Binghamton the Devils organization wont care if they draw 2000 or 4679 because the finances wont be their problem, they will still get affiliation fees from Mitchell & Company. Second, ironically the Devils selling the franchise to the Binghamton group will buck the trend of NHL teams owning and operating their AHL clubs which I believe has had a negative impact around most of the AHL teams. When your AHL ownership or front office staff have no communities ties to its respective AHL city within years the fans become disconnected and incentive to win or generally do right by the fan base diminishes sadly.

Did you have a bad experience in Binghamton once or something?

 

[Nightsquad]

I doubt New Jersey is selling their AHL Franchise. It's more along the lines of new Jersey will own it and Bingo will run the off ice side of things like the Canucks do with Utica.

Did you have a bad experience in Binghamton once or something?

How does the Devils save more money then if they still own the franchise? They wont be selling more seats, and the ad revenue to Binghamton has got to be much less. They are going to pay much more to operate the team in less then par facilities if they own the team.

Bad experience in Binghamton? Never even been to Binghamton. Doesn't take much though to know about the place

http://www.scout.com/stadium-journe...y-veterans-memorial-arena-binghamton-senators

 

[Ski]

How does the Devils save more money then if they still own the franchise? They wont be selling more seats, and the ad revenue to Binghamton has got to be much less. They are going to pay much more to operate the team in less then par facilities if they own the team.

Bad experience in Binghamton? Never even been to Binghamton. Doesn't take much though to know about the place

http://www.scout.com/stadium-journe...y-veterans-memorial-arena-binghamton-senators

You are so far out of the realm of occurrences in this region it's beyond comical.

There is a package agreement that includes the movement of the ECHL club form Wichita to Albany. Ottawa stepped up with the finances, not local ownership.

Get a grip.

 

[210]

You are so far out of the realm of occurrences in this region it's beyond comical.

There is a package agreement that includes the movement of the ECHL club form Wichita to Albany. Ottawa stepped up with the finances, not local ownership.

Get a grip.

Wait, so the Witchita Thunder are going to be sold to someone and moved to Albany?

 

[Nightsquad]

You are so far out of the realm of occurrences in this region it's beyond comical.

There is a package agreement that includes the movement of the ECHL club form Wichita to Albany. Ottawa stepped up with the finances, not local ownership.

Get a grip.

That's awesome news for Albany then, makes more sense for the ECHL to be in Albany wow. Adirondack has to be pretty excited. Not having both Albany and Adirondack together in the same league has hurt both teams attendance wise. So enlighten us though, especially me so I can get a grip, educate me lol. Why Wichita lol????? Will the team in Albany also be called the Albany Thunder lol??? I am sure Adirondack would love that

 

[Nightsquad]

Wait, so the Witchita Thunder are going to be sold to someone and moved to Albany?

Yea won't that be great lol! In the same division We will have the Worcester Railers HC, Manchester Monarchs, Adirondack Thunder, and Albany Thunder......... Now if the Albany team was called the River Rats and affiliated with maybe the New York Rangers it would be a good thing. I think the ECHL should permit dual affiliations. If Albany could be affiliated with both the Rangers and Devils or perhaps Rangers and Boston it would have broad appeal.

 

[Hurricane Ron]

You are so far out of the realm of occurrences in this region it's beyond comical.

There is a package agreement that includes the movement of the ECHL club form Wichita to Albany. Ottawa stepped up with the finances, not local ownership.

Get a grip.

What is your source for the Wichita Thunder moving to Albany?