Adam Johnson passed away after accident during game - Mod edit: Do not post the incident in the forum

[66-30-33]

Has he played since?

Just remembered he was invited to WB/S AHL camp around like 2017

Pretty sure I read that the league has postponed games for now. Also I doubt the league would let him play regardless.

 

[Shrimper]

Really? I'm a long way from seeing this as anything but a freak accident and the guy is undoubtedly feeling incredibly awful that it happened. There's no evidence that he's some unique maniac and the people who want to pile on or go digging for a "pattern" (that highlight is a dime a dozen) are way off base.

I don't think we need to import Twitter here.

Just a lot of racists happy they can have a go at a black player

 

[Jacob]

Really? I'm a long way from seeing this as anything but a freak accident and the guy is undoubtedly feeling incredibly awful that it happened. There's no evidence that he's some unique maniac and the people who want to pile on or go digging for a "pattern" (that highlight is a dime a dozen) are way off base.

I don't think we need to import Twitter here.

This clip looks like Petgrave putting all his weight on his front leg to brace for impact and drive through the puck carrier, missing most of the impact, and as he falls forward his back leg comes up.

Biomechanics are complicated even when you don’t add in skates, ice, a contact sport and millisecond decision-making. And when even actual hockey players are relatively split we can easily tune out laymen.

 

[blindpass]

Most are not intently to prevent the player with the puck from skating.

He held up and stuck his leg out. This wasn't in a intent to kill or cut his throat, the intent was to impede Adam due to having the puck. This was reckless, and it got worse when his right skate hits Adams skates. That's 100% a penalty, which is worthy of a suspension if there's a injury due to a clear penalty. The game didn't get to finish so there were no penalties handed out. Had it gone on without serious injury it would/should be a penalty.

Now what do you do when a clear penalty leads to a death?

He should 100% not be allowed to play hockey again. Not just for sake of punishment, but for his own well being of being able to move on in life. Something Adam doesn't get that choice because of his bad choice he should be accountable for.

At worst, he may get in a civil lawsuit. But he won't serve time because he wasn't looking to kill him, that's just the result of his reckless play. One that is pretty compelling from the video. Grainy/blurred and all plus his history of how he plays the game.

I don't feel for Petgrave other than it may end up costing him the rest of life dealing with it. But he did the act and should be reduced reliving it in civil court.

This should also be example A: Why reaching for plays that are not there are a bad choice because, generally it's the other person who suffers for your bad decision.

I understand what we see in the video is horrific and the outcome is impossible to accept. I think it is fair to say that the maneuver was aggressive (I don't really understand what he was doing). But I think people are rushing to the conclusion that there was intent or enough recklessness to hold him responsible for what happened. To me it looks like his foot clipped the other player and the rest is physics -- no intent to kick. At least this is plausible and needs to be considered.

What we don't need is hoards of people who are (justifiably) emotional about it lashing out. A proper investigation might come to the conclusion that he was criminally responsible and/or that there was intent, I'm just not seeing anything conclusive in the available video. People who just say skates shouldn't ever go that high just aren't recognizing how often it happens unavoidably due to the speed and physicality of the sport -- it's going to happen unless the rules of the game are changed drastically.

 

[LOGiK]

I understand what we see in the video is horrific and the outcome is impossible to accept. I think it is fair to say that the maneuver was aggressive (I don't really understand what he was doing). But I think people are rushing to the conclusion that there was intent or enough recklessness to hold him responsible for what happened. To me it looks like his foot clipped the other player and the rest is physics -- no intent to kick. At least this is plausible and needs to be considered.

What we don't need is hoards of people who are (justifiably) emotional about it lashing out. A proper investigation might come to the conclusion that he was criminally responsible and/or that there was intent, I'm just not seeing anything conclusive in the available video. People who just say skates shouldn't ever go that high just aren't recognizing how often it happens unavoidably due to the speed and physicality of the sport -- it's going to happen unless the rules of the game are changed drastically.

Name another contact sport where each player is equipped with razor-sharp blades?
Statistically speaking it was always going to happen. Surprised it was just once.
Same with contact sport... somebody will drop dead on contact (head or chest) - if there hasn't already been cases of it happening.

Nature of the 'game'.

 

[lokomotiv15]

I've played minor hockey, junior, semi-pro and mens league for 25+ years and have never seen someones leg and skate react like that in a similar situation. It looks like he pivoted to check, caught his weight-bearing skate toe on the heel of the other player making a small pick for Johnson, and his skate and leg blow through it and came up and hit Johnson.

I think he was going for the hip, was going to miss it and was gonna stick his leg out to get a piece of Johnson on an offside play (dirty move but, ref blew that and called it onside) and got caught doing that while getting clipped which slung his leg up like that. Bad play, and 100% on him for not having control of his body and trying to stick a piece out, but it's the only way I can think mechanically that his leg would have come up like that. That would be hard to do even if you were trying to.

You hope he didn't mean to do it because I don't think there's any way to prove intent here either way.

 

[blindpass]

Name another contact sport where each player is equipped with razor-sharp blades?
Statistically speaking it was always going to happen. Surprised it was just once.
Same with contact sport... somebody will drop dead on contact (head or chest) - if there hasn't already been cases of it happening.

Nature of the 'game'.

There have definitely been other cases, one in my area when I was young similar to this one, though the two players involved were teammates so there weren't questions of intent.

 

[LOGiK]

I've played minor hockey, junior, semi-pro and mens league for 25+ years and have never seen someones leg and skate react like that in a similar situation. It looks like he pivoted to check, caught his weight-bearing skate toe on the heel of the other player making a small pick for Johnson, and his skate and leg blow through it and came up and hit Johnson.

I think he was going for the hip, was going to miss it and was gonna stick his leg out to get a piece of Johnson on an offside play (dirty move but, ref blew that and called it onside) and got caught doing that while getting clipped which slung his leg up like that. Bad play, and 100% on him for not having control of his body and trying to stick a piece out, but it's the only way I can think mechanically that his leg would have come up like that. That would be hard to do even if you were trying to.

You hope he didn't mean to do it because I don't think there's any way to prove intent here either way.

Just watched it again... the guy deliberately looks to kick the guy with his skate... intentional? Looks maliciously intentional. My opinion from a crappy video... I'm sure they have better video and more angles... that guy is in serious trouble.

 

[SEALBound]

https://nitter.net/NewXPosterity/status/1720211642342936677#m

JUST IN: The family of hockey player Adam Johnson who got slashed in the neck by a skate, is furious at Matt Petgrave for Johnson's death. Kari Johnson, the aunt, called Petgrave's actions "reckless" and said she wants "justice" for what happened to her nephew. "It was very reckless. I just want them [police] to get it right. We are looking for justice for Adam." "You don't take your leg and kick somebody and cut their throat. I'm sorry. We were watching the game in real time and we did witness what happened. Horrific is the word to describe." "My nephew was 6-feet tall, and whether you lost your balance or not, to have that leg come up that high and do a kicking motion like he did, that is just unacceptable. I think the actions were unnecessary. It was just unnecessary. Nobody touched him. I've watched that video hundreds of times." "I'm sure Mr. Petgrave probably didn't even think about the consequences could be of that happening, but there comes a time when you have to realize, that's not hockey." "He took our boy. There are a few of us in the family that think it was a totally unnecessary, very, very bad action to take." Kari Johnson also spoke out about how Johnson's parents are coping with the incident. "As far as his dad, my brother, he's just been a mess. Along with Adam's grandma and Adam's brother and myself." "I would have to say his mother has probably been the strongest of us. But I don't know deep down inside if she's in shock or crying when she's alone. She's just been very strong." Wow.

The family is absolutely correct to feel that way. I don't think it's much of a stretch to determine the hit, while perhaps unintentional, was absolutely reckless and he should be held accountable for that. I can see a negligent criminal homicide being the charge and it being a relatively easy case. That doesn't necessarily mean he will (or should) get jail time but certainly, there has to be some penalty.

That said, I don't see how Petgrave plays another professional hockey game ever again. I would be iffy even to allow him in a rec league at this point. The liability of allowing him in your local adult league...and if something happens...oof, you'd be crucified.

The fact is, though, there's nothing that's really going to help. I 100% understand the vengeance stance after a tragedy like this and it's hard to understand in current state of mind that nothing that can be done to Petgrave will ease the pain of the loss. It just flat-out sucks. There's no other way around it. The best they can hope for is that Petgrave is held accountable and that this acts as a change agent for hockey players of all ages and leagues to prevent another tragedy. Turning his unfortunate death into a legacy of future safety is what they should be hoping for and focusing on. Call it the "Adam Johnson Rule" - all players below 18 must wear a neck guard. Influence 18+ yo leagues like the AHL, NHL, and European leagues to do this. It's not that different from face shields. A couple games and you'll get used to it. The inconvenience of a neck guard is not THAT big.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Just a lot of racists happy they can have a go at a black player

Yikes. I don't think that's the case at all here.
People would hate Tom Wilson just as much if he did that

 

[LOGiK]

Yikes. I don't think that's the case at all here.
People would hate Tom Wilson just as much if he did that

Didn't even know he was anything but a hockey player... never read an article just the videos and they all show adam johnsons picture.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Just a lot of racists happy they can have a go at a black player

Awful.....and I do mean awful take.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

That other clip of him sticking out his skate/leg to catch a piece of OHL player is not a good look for him at all.

I think most rational people agree he certainly didn’t mean to kick the throat or get his skate that high up. He meant to trip him or impede him with the leg and probably lost his balance and body control/awareness.

Certainly reckless, but is it criminal? I don’t see it personally. Murder implies some intent and predisposition to act, most rational people would say no chance on that. Perhaps involuntary manslaughter but you’d have to prove BARD he acted so unusually recklessly in a game like hockey which I also just don’t see.

In totality I still see it as just a horrific freak accident with a bit of recklessness.

Petgrave will have to live with this on his conscious for rest of his life, will probably need treatment, therapy and medication to cope.

I can’t imagine even if he’s allowed to play, that he still would. I’d probably have to walk away from the game for life after being involved in something so traumatic

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

That other clip of him sticking out his skate/leg to catch a piece of OHL player is not a good look for him at all.

I think most rational people agree he certainly didn’t mean to kick the throat or get his skate that high up. He meant to trip him or impede him with the leg and probably lost his balance and body control/awareness.

Certainly reckless, but is it criminal? I don’t see it personally. Murder implies some intent and predisposition to act, most rational people would say no chance on that. Perhaps involuntary manslaughter but you’d have to prove BARD he acted so unusually recklessly in a game like hockey which I also just don’t see.

In totality I still see it as just a horrific freak accident with a bit of recklessness.

Petgrave will have to live with this on his conscious for rest of his life, will probably need treatment, therapy and medication to cope.

I can’t imagine even if he’s allowed to play, that he still would. I’d probably have to walk away from the game for life after being involved in something so traumatic

Nice post.
But the italicized is the crux of the issue and I think there might be some traction on that standard
You don't see attempted/missed hip checks delivered in this manner, which is why this has some people legitimately upset.

If this was a situation where he got tangled up or a Zednik scenario, people probably wouldn't characterize it as anything else but very unfortunate. As it is, there is an intent to "do something" (what that is, I'm not sure- that's the debate) and we'll see where the courts land on it.

 

[Coastal Kev]

That other clip of him sticking out his skate/leg to catch a piece of OHL player is not a good look for him at all.

I think most rational people agree he certainly didn’t mean to kick the throat or get his skate that high up. He meant to trip him or impede him with the leg and probably lost his balance and body control/awareness.

He's probably not wired to accept any responsibility, to the contrary, he will portray himself as a victim and end up with a heartfelt 15 minute spot on ESPN.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

He's probably not wired to accept any responsibility, to the contrary, he will portray himself as a victim and end up with a heartfelt 15 minute spot on ESPN.

I know next to nothing about the player. Not sure if i missed any info that came out that might lead one to believe he might do something like that. But I certainly hope that's not the case, it would be a terrible look if that were to happen.

I also don't think its responsible for anyone to ask him about it or comment on it, either. at least not until significant amount of time passes on.

Because unless he's a psycho who inteded it (which most would agree is unlikely) he's gotta be in a really bad way right now

 

[SEALBound]

That other clip of him sticking out his skate/leg to catch a piece of OHL player is not a good look for him at all.

I think most rational people agree he certainly didn’t mean to kick the throat or get his skate that high up. He meant to trip him or impede him with the leg and probably lost his balance and body control/awareness.

Certainly reckless, but is it criminal? I don’t see it personally. Murder implies some intent and predisposition to act, most rational people would say no chance on that. Perhaps involuntary manslaughter but you’d have to prove BARD he acted so unusually recklessly in a game like hockey which I also just don’t see.

In totality I still see it as just a horrific freak accident with a bit of recklessness.

Petgrave will have to live with this on his conscious for rest of his life, will probably need treatment, therapy and medication to cope.

I can’t imagine even if he’s allowed to play, that he still would. I’d probably have to walk away from the game for life after being involved in something so traumatic

My general view on it has been - did he mean to stick the leg out to hit or impede, yes I believe so. Did he mean to have the skate blade up to cut the guys throat, no I don't think he meant for that to happen.

When I say "negligent criminal homicide," I think people hear something different than what that actually means. While I do a lot of expert witness stuff in court, I'm not a lawyer so here are the definitions of the charges I think can reasonably be brought up against him:

What is the crime of negligent homicide? You commit the offense of negligent homicide if you:
1. commit some act of criminal negligence, and
2. the act results in another person’s death.

In general, “criminal negligence” is where you disregard some obvious risk or the safety of others. Note, though, that state criminal laws vary on the precise definition of the term and I have no idea what the UK says about but our laws tend to be pretty close. I think their equivalent could be "gross negligence manslaughter".

I believe the potential for a skate blade to cut the skin, even if it's the jugular or carotid, is a very obvious safety risk while wearing skates and playing hockey. A good example of criminal negligence would be firing a gun into the air and the bullet hits a person. You didn't intend for the bullet to hit anyone but that risk is quite obvious. I think it would be extraordinarily difficult for a jury to believe Petgrave if he said "I had no idea doing that might cut his throat" even if was unintentional. With negligent criminal homicide, the intent is not the primary burden to prove. I think that's why some cases get dropped to CNH from Murder.

@Andy99 I think you said you were a lawyer, do I have this correct?

He's probably not wired to accept any responsibility, to the contrary, he will portray himself as a victim and end up with a heartfelt 15 minute spot on ESPN.

There is a smidge of truth to that. In the world we live in, being victimized by the bombardment of social media coverage is certainly something that can be weighed by a jury or a judge. Needing help or therapy is quite common after events like this. People who get into car accidents where the other driver (or someone else) is killed quite often have to seek therapy to help cope with it. While it was reckless, I don't think Petgrave set out to literally kill Johnson there. So while my sympathy is incredibly low for him, it's not zero. That's why I don't believe there should be jail time for this. I don't think that helps or solves anything.

 

[Jacob]

I think if Petgrave was some kinda sociopath there’d be more than just a handful of incidents in his career, the most damning of which was when he was like, 17?

 

[Filthy Dangles]

My general view on it has been - did he mean to stick the leg out to hit or impede, yes I believe so. Did he mean to have the skate blade up to cut the guys throat, no I don't think he meant for that to happen.

When I say "negligent criminal homicide," I think people hear something different than what that actually means. While I do a lot of expert witness stuff in court, I'm not a lawyer so here are the definitions of the charges I think can reasonably be brought up against him:

What is the crime of negligent homicide? You commit the offense of negligent homicide if you:
1. commit some act of criminal negligence, and
2. the act results in another person’s death.

In general, “criminal negligence” is where you disregard some obvious risk or the safety of others. Note, though, that state criminal laws vary on the precise definition of the term and I have no idea what the UK says about but our laws tend to be pretty close. I think their equivalent could be "gross negligence manslaughter".

I believe the potential for a skate blade to cut the skin, even if it's the jugular or carotid, is a very obvious safety risk while wearing skates and playing hockey. A good example of criminal negligence would be firing a gun into the air and the bullet hits a person. You didn't intend for the bullet to hit anyone but that risk is quite obvious. I think it would be extraordinarily difficult for a jury to believe Petgrave if he said "I had no idea doing that might cut his throat" even if was unintentional. With negligent criminal homicide, the intent is not the primary burden to prove. I think that's why some cases get dropped to CNH from Murder.

@Andy99 I think you said you were a lawyer, do I have this correct?

There is a smidge of truth to that. In the world we live in, being victimized by the bombardment of social media coverage is certainly something that can be weighed by a jury or a judge. Needing help or therapy is quite common after events like this. People who get into car accidents where the other driver (or someone else) is killed quite often have to seek therapy to help cope with it. While it was reckless, I don't think Petgrave set out to literally kill Johnson there. So while my sympathy is incredibly low for him, it's not zero. That's why I don't believe there should be jail time for this. I don't think that helps or solves anything.

The thing is Reckless Discharge which you described, is already a crime in itself. Im no lawyer but my understanding is CNH and similar laws involve commiting an already criminal act (reckless discharge, drinking and driving and then running someone over) but not intending the ultimate act of death.

I agree with your response to the other poster. What is it really gonna accomplish if you pursue this case criminally? Everyone is gonna have to relive details of what happened etc. and like you said, I think most would agree with us that Petgrave mightve acted reckless/irresponsible he probably dosen't deserve prison or to be prosecuted for this.

 

[blindpass]

I think if Petgrave was some kinda sociopath there’d be more than just a handful of incidents in his career, the most damning of which was when he was like, 17?

And the players on the teams involved, who would have some idea of his character, wouldn't be defending him.

 

[Jacob]

And the players on the teams involved, who would have some idea of his character, wouldn't be defending him.

Of the small number of people that had seen him play regularly on the main board thread they all said their recollection was he wasn’t a dirty player.

 

[SEALBound]

The thing is Reckless Discharge which you described, is already a crime in itself. Im no lawyer but my understanding is CNH and similar laws involve commiting an already criminal act (reckless discharge, drinking and driving and then running someone over) but not intending the ultimate act of death.

I agree with your response to the other poster. What is it really gonna accomplish if you pursue this case criminally? Everyone is gonna have to relive details of what happened etc. and like you said, I think most would agree with us that Petgrave mightve acted reckless/irresponsible he probably dosen't deserve prison or to be prosecuted for this.

Totally agree which is why I said his family needs to harness their grief into something positive like neck guard advocacy for the entire hockey community.

 

[blindpass]

Of the small number of people that had seen him play regularly on the main board thread they all said their recollection was he wasn’t a dirty player.

I guess it is worth quoting what one of Johnson's teammates said for those that haven't seen it:

Victor Bjorkung, another member of the Panthers, echoed those sentiments in a Swedish interview with Expressen.​

​

“What Matt has experienced is unimaginable,” Bjorkung said, via a Google translation. “I don't understand how some people can behave, it's inhuman. I have texted him and expressed how I feel about everything and I support him. No one in our team thinks it's his fault, quite the opposite. We stand behind him.”​

​

Bjorkung said anyone who thinks Petgrave's actions were intentional "can go to hell."​

​

"It's so insane that people think it's deliberate," Bjorkung said. "Check the video, then you will see that it is an accident. Two skates collide right before, it goes so damn fast. There is no chance it is deliberate.​

 

[Jumptheshark]

inquest has started here in the UK

https://coronerscourtssupportservice.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/CCSS-EL_Inquest_Factsheet_Final29317221_3.pdf

 

[Andy99]

My general view on it has been - did he mean to stick the leg out to hit or impede, yes I believe so. Did he mean to have the skate blade up to cut the guys throat, no I don't think he meant for that to happen.

When I say "negligent criminal homicide," I think people hear something different than what that actually means. While I do a lot of expert witness stuff in court, I'm not a lawyer so here are the definitions of the charges I think can reasonably be brought up against him:

What is the crime of negligent homicide? You commit the offense of negligent homicide if you:
1. commit some act of criminal negligence, and
2. the act results in another person’s death.

In general, “criminal negligence” is where you disregard some obvious risk or the safety of others. Note, though, that state criminal laws vary on the precise definition of the term and I have no idea what the UK says about but our laws tend to be pretty close. I think their equivalent could be "gross negligence manslaughter".

I believe the potential for a skate blade to cut the skin, even if it's the jugular or carotid, is a very obvious safety risk while wearing skates and playing hockey. A good example of criminal negligence would be firing a gun into the air and the bullet hits a person. You didn't intend for the bullet to hit anyone but that risk is quite obvious. I think it would be extraordinarily difficult for a jury to believe Petgrave if he said "I had no idea doing that might cut his throat" even if was unintentional. With negligent criminal homicide, the intent is not the primary burden to prove. I think that's why some cases get dropped to CNH from Murder.

@Andy99 I think you said you were a lawyer, do I have this correct?

There is a smidge of truth to that. In the world we live in, being victimized by the bombardment of social media coverage is certainly something that can be weighed by a jury or a judge. Needing help or therapy is quite common after events like this. People who get into car accidents where the other driver (or someone else) is killed quite often have to seek therapy to help cope with it. While it was reckless, I don't think Petgrave set out to literally kill Johnson there. So while my sympathy is incredibly low for him, it's not zero. That's why I don't believe there should be jail time for this. I don't think that helps or solves anything.

I didn’t read this whole thing lol but negligent homicide has state by state definition but usually requires more than ordinary negligence or carelessness…has to be reckless conduct that ignores a reasonable risk of great bodily injury. But the issue would be what is UK law on this