I don't personally feel like this incident - terrible as it is - merits criminal charges, but I'm also not going to pretend I'm particularly familiar with how the UK legal system works in these instances. From my perspective, the player could have made a safer move, but I don't think a split second miscalculation like that rises to the level of manslaughter. It was simply a horrible accident. If a thorough investigation determines his actions to be criminal by UK standards, though, I guess there's not much that can be said to refute it. I guess it boils down to whether intentionally kicking his leg out is criminally reckless - a gray area.
Adam Johnson passed away after accident during game - Mod edit: Do not post the incident in the forum
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Coastal Kev
There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
You're right up until the final conclusion...., but now i'll tell the rest of the story. He did not "lose his balance". He was pissed that he missed and decided to extend his leg out to clip Johnson. I'm 98% certain this act was intentional. The fact that someone else shared a video earlier of him trying the same kind of reverse cow trip, that takes my certainty to 99.999%.
In the end, he won't get punished by the court. But I love the charge, it alerts him that others know that his selfish, boorish, dangerous mind ended the life of another. Hopefully he owns that, admits his intent and makes amends to the family.
Read somewhere Petgeave admitted to lifting his skate to stop Johnson's progress up the ice. Anyone know where he said this?
He didn't miss the check. His body still collided with Johnson. How do you explain that?
66-30-33
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I missed that but even if that is true, I still have difficulty suggesting that Petgrave intended to slice AJ's throat. Wreckless, absolutely. Criminal conviction for murder/manslaughter, is doubtful since it would be impossible to establish intent.
Even if he is convicted, I can fathom what judge would send to a physical jail. Probation, sure. Prison? Absolutely not.
Not saying he did. There's no way he intended to kill him. But he did intentionally lift his skate and I guess admitted it. That's all I was looking to see.
Oh no, Elmer needs to retire. That lad has serious PCS issues he will definitely need to deal with and needs less opportunities to scramble his brain even further.
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It's quite obvious he intentionally lifted his skate but yeah, the intent to slice clearly isn't there. It will be interesting to see how the "investigation" and charges shake out.
LOGiK
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Isn't the whole point of 'involuntary manslaughter' that the intention was not there? Hence involuntary. Still reckless, and you can say there was intent. HE DID intend to lift his skate, which contains razor sharp blade. ie: what do you expect to happen?
66-30-33
Registered User
I think he meant to lift his leg up to give him a dirty hit, but not the skate up at the neck. Unless he's a psycho.
LOGiK
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Even Billy Tibbitts or that NYI Gilles guy (or other maniacs (quite a few in the nhl)) who were indeed both psychos... never tried to blade somebody
That I know of....
Super Duper
Registered User
He didn't intend to KILL the person which makes it involuntary manslaughter. There was intent to lift the skate though, which is recklessness, which the basis of being charged with involuntary manslaughter can come from among other things.
Voluntary manslaughter is murder without premeditation.
Didn't Matt Cooke "blade" Karlsson's Achilles Tendon?Even Billy Tibbitts or that NYI Gilles guy (or other maniacs (quite a few in the nhl)) who were indeed both psychos... never tried to blade somebody
That I know of....
LOGiK
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I do believe he did haha... very foggy though I'd have to check videos.
He was another psycho though... but man I really liked him (as a hockey player)...
The same people who were certain that Cooke surgically targeted Karlsson's Achilles were likely the same ones who swore that in no possible way did P.K. Subban deliberately shred Jordan Staal's foot in the opening game of the PIT-MON playoff series in 2010.
Nobody knew what a dirty POS Subban would become because he had only 2 NHL games prior to that one, but it's a hell of a lot more believable that Subban's stomp was deliberate than Cooke's was. Of course Cooke occasionally tried to hurt people, but what were the odds he could be THAT precise about it? Subban had a whole foot as his target, not some stringy little tendon -- and he nailed it good.
To me, the most deliberate injuries that aren't taken seriously enough are head shots.
Imagine the outrage this is getting, meanwhile players are specifically targeting heads as a point of contact to create long lasting brain damage that gets worse with time and will greatly affect your living quality and can lead to severe issues that will compound over time with depression, suicidal ideation, headaches, and other things.
The NHL taking neck guards seriously but at the same time never punishing players harshly enough for head shots will be one of the more hypocritical bullshit moments in this sport's history of idiotic ignored choices.
Imagine the outrage this is getting, meanwhile players are specifically targeting heads as a point of contact to create long lasting brain damage that gets worse with time and will greatly affect your living quality and can lead to severe issues that will compound over time with depression, suicidal ideation, headaches, and other things.
The NHL taking neck guards seriously but at the same time never punishing players harshly enough for head shots will be one of the more hypocritical bullshit moments in this sport's history of idiotic ignored choices.
Super Duper
Registered User
If he did Infact admit to throwing his skate up in the air to prevent Adams progress on the play, that alone would qualify as involuntary manslaughter wouldn't it?
You don't need to prove intent to kill for involuntary manslaughter, just that their dangerous or reckless act resulted in someone's death.
It might depend on how lifting your leg is looked at in this scenario. Is it completely against the rules to lift your skate high? I honestly don't know the rules around it but would it just be interference?
If it's not necessarily illegal in the sport for that act to occur they might look at it differently, even though anyone with a brain would know raising a sharp blade that high is incredibly dangerous.
LOGiK
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Believe me... I may like contact sports, but the amount of contact the brain gets in the nhl / nfl / football (to some degree with the headers) / rugby... these guys are literally risking it every single bit of contact could be their last...
But I agree... the players don't seem to care and neither do the league... but I walk down the street and see 10 year olds running into each other like rams and I shake my head... brain injuries... fun!
- Jun 13, 2010
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Maybe. I just have a hard time seeing criminal charges being brought forth and him being convicted. Even with involuntary manslaughter.
Now, a civil case (or whatever the UK equivalent is) might be a different story. There are several routes of "wrongful death" that you could go down where the burdens of proof are different. But that has to be up to the family to do and honestly, I'm not entirely sure what they gain from it. Not like Petgrave is a multi-million with a heavy stack of liquid cash on hand.
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
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Yeah, as tragic as this situation is, there's something ... ironic? ... about hockey's outrage over the incident while guys like Tom Wilson and Jacob Trouba are heralded for continuously launching their shoulders/elbows into other players' faces/heads at full speed.
Thats the issue isn't it?
You have wording like "Intent to injure" and "direct contact to the head" and to me those are law suit words, if I was a player, I wait for the NHL to release statements using those words and contact my Lawyer because that's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Players like Paul Kariya and others that had their careers cut short with injuries like that should be taking the NHL, NFL, etc to task because for one, you are aware this is an intent to injure or a direct hit to the head and the punishment for those injuries are not set in a way to be a deterrent.
If you know that you can help your team win a game by throwing a head shot and you'll be gone at max maybe 2 games and a fine, your team almost incentivizes it, Crawford may have been caught for the Steve Moore thing, but we all know in the dressing room, they want payback or some other dumb shit.
Which always to me, shows a lack of safety for their own NHLPA Union "friends" by going out there and doing that for the crest on the front vs realizing that's their f***ing peers in the end and the crest on the front doesn't give a flying f*** about your health as long as it wins them games and when you can't anymore - See: Hornqvist, Patric et Pittsburgh Penguins.
LTIR is their only saving grace and what teams will happily use because it also helps them, otherwise they'd just do the most callous shit like the NFL and release players.
