OT: 87th Obsequious Banter Thread: Don't be Brash

[Surrounded By Ahos]

Anyway

 

[Appleyard]

Watching people make arguments like yours is like eating glass. If you are an antivaxxer nothing is going to change your mind until your friends and family start dying or getting seriously ill.

And if you aren't why are you getting in these dumb arguments with people on the internet. Just why.

I dont "mind" if people choose not to get vaccinated. I dont agree with it and think it is illogical. And slightly frustrating. BUT at same time I dont believe in directly forcing people to.

However, if you choose not to then you have to deal with the ramifications of that and it is bizarre to complain, given that the exact same mechanism is in place across society time and time again. No matter whether by omission or direct action.

If you choose to drink? You have to deal with fact that you then cant drive. That if you showed up to work drinking then you would be sent home and likely sacked.

If you choose not to get a passport, national insurance number, bank account? You have to deal with not being able to travel, and potentially get 90% of work in society.

If you choose to drive without a seatbelt? You have to deal with the fact you could be arrested.

If you choose to do drugs? You have to deal with the fact that if caught you are going to jail. You have to deal with the fact that you cant enter a lot of places without risk of problems. If you refuse to do a drug test? You could lose your job.


We all live within a social contract. I dont agree with a lot of aspects of my own social contract. But you have to make balances within that and accept consequences of it. And sometimes it sucks. And it is hard to fight against anything that a majority accept and believe is best for society as a whole.

Which in this case is, across the Western world, is that vaccination is a fantastic tool to help stop the spread, stop other variants developing, and stopping people dying and being hospitalised. The evidence for all these positives is extremely strong now.

Effectively we all live in societies underpinned by a mixture of Utilitarian, Consequentialist and Deontological ethics. Where the rules of society are often decided by a combination of what is "best for the many", "whether the action is right or wrong under a series of rules" and "consequences of actions are basis for judgement of them."

Under all these philosophical trains of thought that have been underpinnings of Western society there are no real issues with consequences for breaking this social contract, and it is understandable as to why people are encouraged to take the vaccine.

And as consequences go not being able to get a steak at Arby's, or not enter a club, are not that big on an individual vs the excess deaths, hospital overloads, long COVID and societal restrictions that COVID has caused. Especially when a choice negatively impacts others and society as a whole. If this had been let run rampant we would possibly have Spanish Flu-esque death figures (50 million) or worse now, up 10x or so where it is.

When it comes to potentially losing your job if dont take it... yeh... that sucks. But you might lose your job in some careers if you take drugs, or have a poor fitness level.

Now, I dont think everyone who does not want to take the vaccine is an anti-vaxxer though. We have a lot of people in Europe who have had a loooot of shots over life, people who take winter flu vaccine every year, but have concerns over these vaccines.

Now, I think, given the data we have right now, the history of vaccines etc, that is an illogical concern. But people have the right to choose that. So long as they understand the consequences as the trade-off.

Hopefully we get to a point where in the near future, thanks to measures in places, where society returns to normal. And the 10-25% (depending on the country) minority who refuse to be vaccinated can then resume there normal lives and still not have been vacced. And their "trade-off" at that time for not taking it will have been some mild exclusionary measures "for the good of the many".

 

[Tripod]

I hope @Captain Dave Poulin enjoyed Michael Keaton's bday yesterday.

70 years young.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

I hope @Captain Dave Poulin enjoyed Michael Keaton's bday yesterday.

70 years young.

 

[Starat327]

I dont "mind" if people choose not to get vaccinated. I dont agree with it and think it is illogical. And slightly frustrating. BUT at same time I dont believe in directly forcing people to.

However, if you choose not to then you have to deal with the ramifications of that and it is bizarre to complain, given that the exact same mechanism is in place across society time and time again. No matter whether by omission or direct action.

If you choose to drink? You have to deal with fact that you then cant drive. That if you showed up to work drinking then you would be sent home and likely sacked.

If you choose not to get a passport, national insurance number, bank account? You have to deal with not being able to travel, and potentially get 90% of work in society.

If you choose to drive without a seatbelt? You have to deal with the fact you could be arrested.

If you choose to do drugs? You have to deal with the fact that if caught you are going to jail. You have to deal with the fact that you cant enter a lot of places without risk of problems. If you refuse to do a drug test? You could lose your job.


We all live within a social contract. I dont agree with a lot of aspects of my own social contract. But you have to make balances within that and accept consequences of it. And sometimes it sucks. And it is hard to fight against anything that a majority accept and believe is best for society as a whole.

Which in this case is, across the Western world, is that vaccination is a fantastic tool to help stop the spread, stop other variants developing, and stopping people dying and being hospitalised. The evidence for all these positives is extremely strong now.

Effectively we all live in societies underpinned by a mixture of Utilitarian, Consequentialist and Deontological ethics. Where the rules of society are often decided by a combination of what is "best for the many", "whether the action is right or wrong under a series of rules" and "consequences of actions are basis for judgement of them."

Under all these philosophical trains of thought that have been underpinnings of Western society there are no real issues with consequences for breaking this social contract, and it is understandable as to why people are encouraged to take the vaccine.

And as consequences go not being able to get a steak at Arby's, or not enter a club, are not that big on an individual vs the excess deaths, hospital overloads, long COVID and societal restrictions that COVID has caused. Especially when a choice negatively impacts others and society as a whole. If this had been let run rampant we would possibly have Spanish Flu-esque death figures (50 million) or worse now, up 10x or so where it is.

When it comes to potentially losing your job if dont take it... yeh... that sucks. But you might lose your job in some careers if you take drugs, or have a poor fitness level.

Now, I dont think everyone who does not want to take the vaccine is an anti-vaxxer though. We have a lot of people in Europe who have had a loooot of shots over life, people who take winter flu vaccine every year, but have concerns over these vaccines.

Now, I think, given the data we have right now, the history of vaccines etc, that is an illogical concern. But people have the right to choose that. So long as they understand the consequences as the trade-off.

Hopefully we get to a point where in the near future, thanks to measures in places, where society returns to normal. And the 10-25% (depending on the country) minority who refuse to be vaccinated can then resume there normal lives and still not have been vacced. And their "trade-off" at that time for not taking it will have been some mild exclusionary measures "for the good of the many".

Wait. UK Arby's have steaks?

 

[Amorgus]

My friend finally was able to have a BBQ at his new house yesterday. I sat half submerged in the heated pool eating ribs and drinking booze because that's my simple idea of bliss. My friend who lives in Lansdale even appeared there out of nowhere, so it was a fantastic night. I also remembered this time to bring him his movie posters @Lord Defect.

 

[BernieParent]

That’s the exact same thing. Someone not getting vaccinated is a choice. The hypothetical person chose to drink then drive, chose to so drugs, chose to self harm, chose to become obese, and so on.
More people die yearly from obesity related afflictions than covid. Suicide and ODing have skyrocketed since covid hit. Drinking has as well, but driving has been down, thank god.

The difference is that my morbid obesity or drug OD are not contagious. Drunk driving does potentially affect others' physical health directly but is limited to the single accident.

 

[Jack Straw]

Had to read that a couple of times before I got it. Chapeau BP.

Don’t encourage him.

 

[Asnito]

My friend finally was able to have a BBQ at his new house yesterday. I sat half submerged in the heated pool eating ribs and drinking booze because that's my simple idea of bliss. My friend who lives in Lansdale even appeared there out of nowhere, so it was a fantastic night. I also remembered this time to bring him his movie posters @Lord Defect.

Did your destroy his bathroom?

 

[Asnito]

Don’t encourage him.

I enjoy BP's sense of humor although I will admit he does throw out a stinker now and again.

 

[Amorgus]

Did your destroy his bathroom?

Nope not yet. I took Immodium in advance, just to be safe. I still have to get some scallops to see if that was the cause of that fateful night.

I just remembered that my one friend brought a housewarming gift: another Amazon Basics power strip for when he wants to upgrade to a bigger house.

 

[Beef Invictus]

A spoonful of malt vinegar helps the Imodium go down

 

[BernieParent]

I enjoy BP's sense of humor although I will admit he does throw out a stinker now and again.

How dare you! I throw out stinkers with much more regularity than that!

 

[BiggE]

Happy New Year to my fellow Hebrews. Happy Labor Day to my fellow Americans
Um Happy Monday to the rest of ya miscreants

 

[Asnito]

How dare you! I throw out stinkers with much more regularity than that!

I was only trying to defend you but @Jack Straw was right. REPORTED

 

[Asnito]

Happy New Year to my fellow Hebrews. Happy Labor Day to my fellow Americans
Um Happy Monday to the rest of ya miscreants

Miscreants is another way of saying Canadian right?

 

[Lord Defect]

I respect your point of view but if a doctor has to choose between 2 covid patients who gets life saving treatment shouldn't the one who tried to do the right thing take precedent over the one who ignored the warnings?

This is an extreme situation but if a hospital only has the capability to work on one patient and has 2 with life threatening injuries, a drunk driver or the person he hit, I think the person he hit should take precedent.

No. The bed should come to whomever arrives first.
If they both come in at the same time, the variety of factors come into play that are specific to the situation at hand, on the scene. Age, overall quality of health, chance of saving the patient, and so forth.
What if both come in and cannot speak, one had the vax one does not because they cannot get it due to health reasons?
How about one that is vaccinated and a citizen and one that is vaccinated and an illegal alien? Again, which ever patient arrives first.

 

[Lord Defect]

Watching people make arguments like yours is like eating glass. If you are an antivaxxer nothing is going to change your mind until your friends and family start dying or getting seriously ill.

And if you aren't why are you getting in these dumb arguments with people on the internet. Just why.

Because that particular stance is ghoulish. It has never come up in such a large scale with virtually any other life choice in the past, ranging from all the other topics I previously mentioned to the HIV epidemic, to illegal aliens receiving medical treatment, to prisoners and violent criminals getting out of prison to get specialized treatment or going to the hospital before jail.
We spent the last how many years hearing body autonomy being a major issue when it comes to pro choice/pro life debates, but now that’s out of the window. Why? In one situation it ALWAYS ends with the loss of a life, and in the other it can end with the loss of life, or illness, or nothing at all.
But because you don’t like my position on the topic, I shouldn’t join in on the conversation at all, right?
I’m not vaccinated, surprise surprise, and not everyone at my work is. It leans heavily on the vaccinated side and that’s ok. That’s their choice. I work with a large amount of people, in very close proximity due to the nature of the work, and there can be upwards of 2-5 people working right on top of each other. I legitimately may be the only person at my work that has not caught(knock on wood) covid so far.
I have been quarantined from work as a safety precaution several times for having worked with directly people that have come up positive.
If the vaccine works, which I’m not saying it does not, then why does my not being vaccinated matter to those who are vaccinated? The vaccine doesn’t prevent you from getting it, or spreading it, it lessens the viral load your body has to deal with and the severity of illness, correct?
There is still a variety of things surrounding the vaccinations that are not fact yet, and new info that sometimes goes against what was once believed, comes out seemly weekly. It’s just two shots, now you need a booster, now you don’t need a booster but need a third shot (isn’t that just a booster by another name), now you need two and an ongoing series of boosters. We just don’t know yet.
I’ve been getting info here, thanks DP and jojo and you all, and from my doctor. I still feel like there isn’t enough solid info to justify getting it.

 

[Lord Defect]

Anyway


View attachment 463838

I see your tiger and raise you this tiger.

 

[Lord Defect]

I dont "mind" if people choose not to get vaccinated. I dont agree with it and think it is illogical. And slightly frustrating. BUT at same time I dont believe in directly forcing people to.

However, if you choose not to then you have to deal with the ramifications of that and it is bizarre to complain, given that the exact same mechanism is in place across society time and time again. No matter whether by omission or direct action.

If you choose to drink? You have to deal with fact that you then cant drive. That if you showed up to work drinking then you would be sent home and likely sacked.

If you choose not to get a passport, national insurance number, bank account? You have to deal with not being able to travel, and potentially get 90% of work in society.

If you choose to drive without a seatbelt? You have to deal with the fact you could be arrested.

If you choose to do drugs? You have to deal with the fact that if caught you are going to jail. You have to deal with the fact that you cant enter a lot of places without risk of problems. If you refuse to do a drug test? You could lose your job.


We all live within a social contract. I dont agree with a lot of aspects of my own social contract. But you have to make balances within that and accept consequences of it. And sometimes it sucks. And it is hard to fight against anything that a majority accept and believe is best for society as a whole.

Which in this case is, across the Western world, is that vaccination is a fantastic tool to help stop the spread, stop other variants developing, and stopping people dying and being hospitalised. The evidence for all these positives is extremely strong now.

Effectively we all live in societies underpinned by a mixture of Utilitarian, Consequentialist and Deontological ethics. Where the rules of society are often decided by a combination of what is "best for the many", "whether the action is right or wrong under a series of rules" and "consequences of actions are basis for judgement of them."

Under all these philosophical trains of thought that have been underpinnings of Western society there are no real issues with consequences for breaking this social contract, and it is understandable as to why people are encouraged to take the vaccine.

And as consequences go not being able to get a steak at Arby's, or not enter a club, are not that big on an individual vs the excess deaths, hospital overloads, long COVID and societal restrictions that COVID has caused. Especially when a choice negatively impacts others and society as a whole. If this had been let run rampant we would possibly have Spanish Flu-esque death figures (50 million) or worse now, up 10x or so where it is.

When it comes to potentially losing your job if dont take it... yeh... that sucks. But you might lose your job in some careers if you take drugs, or have a poor fitness level.

Now, I dont think everyone who does not want to take the vaccine is an anti-vaxxer though. We have a lot of people in Europe who have had a loooot of shots over life, people who take winter flu vaccine every year, but have concerns over these vaccines.

Now, I think, given the data we have right now, the history of vaccines etc, that is an illogical concern. But people have the right to choose that. So long as they understand the consequences as the trade-off.

Hopefully we get to a point where in the near future, thanks to measures in places, where society returns to normal. And the 10-25% (depending on the country) minority who refuse to be vaccinated can then resume there normal lives and still not have been vacced. And their "trade-off" at that time for not taking it will have been some mild exclusionary measures "for the good of the many".

Sometimes I wish I could speak as eloquently as you do.

 

[Lord Defect]

The difference is that my morbid obesity or drug OD are not contagious. Drunk driving does potentially affect others' physical health directly but is limited to the single accident.

Health issues stemming from obesity put the largest strain on our healthcare system. All the mentioned above put a strain on resources. Drunk drivers could have no incident, cause something small like broken bones or auto body damage, or kill a single person other than the drunk, or a family of 4, or cause a 12 car pile up. ODing is single issue, but drug use doesn’t have to be, aka sharing dirty needles, bad batches coming from dealers, or multiple people coming into accidental contact with fentanyl.
They are all still choices, with some exception to some cases of obesity or getting hooked via prescribed pills and whatnot, and they are deserve to be treated with medical care.

 

[Lord Defect]

Did your destroy his bathroom?

He was in the pool, he destroyed the filter.

 

[Lord Defect]

Happy New Year to my fellow Hebrews. Happy Labor Day to my fellow Americans
Um Happy Monday to the rest of ya miscreants

How have I lived this long, without knowing that Rosh Hashanah was the Jewish New Year? I was aware of the holiday but not it’s meaning. Yesterday at target was the first time I’ve seen it written as the Jewish New Year.

 

[FlyerNutter]

I dont "mind" if people choose not to get vaccinated. I dont agree with it and think it is illogical. And slightly frustrating. BUT at same time I dont believe in directly forcing people to.

However, if you choose not to then you have to deal with the ramifications of that and it is bizarre to complain, given that the exact same mechanism is in place across society time and time again. No matter whether by omission or direct action.

If you choose to drink? You have to deal with fact that you then cant drive. That if you showed up to work drinking then you would be sent home and likely sacked.

If you choose not to get a passport, national insurance number, bank account? You have to deal with not being able to travel, and potentially get 90% of work in society.

If you choose to drive without a seatbelt? You have to deal with the fact you could be arrested.

If you choose to do drugs? You have to deal with the fact that if caught you are going to jail. You have to deal with the fact that you cant enter a lot of places without risk of problems. If you refuse to do a drug test? You could lose your job.


We all live within a social contract. I dont agree with a lot of aspects of my own social contract. But you have to make balances within that and accept consequences of it. And sometimes it sucks. And it is hard to fight against anything that a majority accept and believe is best for society as a whole.

Which in this case is, across the Western world, is that vaccination is a fantastic tool to help stop the spread, stop other variants developing, and stopping people dying and being hospitalised. The evidence for all these positives is extremely strong now.

Effectively we all live in societies underpinned by a mixture of Utilitarian, Consequentialist and Deontological ethics. Where the rules of society are often decided by a combination of what is "best for the many", "whether the action is right or wrong under a series of rules" and "consequences of actions are basis for judgement of them."

Under all these philosophical trains of thought that have been underpinnings of Western society there are no real issues with consequences for breaking this social contract, and it is understandable as to why people are encouraged to take the vaccine.

And as consequences go not being able to get a steak at Arby's, or not enter a club, are not that big on an individual vs the excess deaths, hospital overloads, long COVID and societal restrictions that COVID has caused. Especially when a choice negatively impacts others and society as a whole. If this had been let run rampant we would possibly have Spanish Flu-esque death figures (50 million) or worse now, up 10x or so where it is.

When it comes to potentially losing your job if dont take it... yeh... that sucks. But you might lose your job in some careers if you take drugs, or have a poor fitness level.

Now, I dont think everyone who does not want to take the vaccine is an anti-vaxxer though. We have a lot of people in Europe who have had a loooot of shots over life, people who take winter flu vaccine every year, but have concerns over these vaccines.

Now, I think, given the data we have right now, the history of vaccines etc, that is an illogical concern. But people have the right to choose that. So long as they understand the consequences as the trade-off.

Hopefully we get to a point where in the near future, thanks to measures in places, where society returns to normal. And the 10-25% (depending on the country) minority who refuse to be vaccinated can then resume there normal lives and still not have been vacced. And their "trade-off" at that time for not taking it will have been some mild exclusionary measures "for the good of the many".

Im health, and x2. There are things that make sense, and things that don’t.

A province paying its citizens a 100$ as an incentive to get vaxxed? A 100k tax payer funded lottery for anyone that got a needle? Wear a mask walking around a restaurant but sitting down you are free to shout and have fun without one. My favourite, is being allowed to serve alcohol at a wedding - if everyone is x2. If not? You are booze free.

Look, I’ve had people with it, seen healthy army guys knocked on their ass for a month. The lung scans look like litChristmas trees. I’m not some amazing resource, won’t pretend to be.

There is a line though, and as usual the answer falls in the rational middle ground. Not the extremes that both sides have.

The population has carried the brunt of this pandemic for a long time, with restrictions. Has any western country done anything to increase capacity to maybe help limit the need for restrictions?

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Because that particular stance is ghoulish. It has never come up in such a large scale with virtually any other life choice in the past, ranging from all the other topics I previously mentioned to the HIV epidemic, to illegal aliens receiving medical treatment, to prisoners and violent criminals getting out of prison to get specialized treatment or going to the hospital before jail.
We spent the last how many years hearing body autonomy being a major issue when it comes to pro choice/pro life debates, but now that’s out of the window. Why? In one situation it ALWAYS ends with the loss of a life, and in the other it can end with the loss of life, or illness, or nothing at all.
But because you don’t like my position on the topic, I shouldn’t join in on the conversation at all, right?
I’m not vaccinated, surprise surprise, and not everyone at my work is. It leans heavily on the vaccinated side and that’s ok. That’s their choice. I work with a large amount of people, in very close proximity due to the nature of the work, and there can be upwards of 2-5 people working right on top of each other. I legitimately may be the only person at my work that has not caught(knock on wood) covid so far.
I have been quarantined from work as a safety precaution several times for having worked with directly people that have come up positive.
If the vaccine works, which I’m not saying it does not, then why does my not being vaccinated matter to those who are vaccinated? The vaccine doesn’t prevent you from getting it, or spreading it, it lessens the viral load your body has to deal with and the severity of illness, correct?
There is still a variety of things surrounding the vaccinations that are not fact yet, and new info that sometimes goes against what was once believed, comes out seemly weekly. It’s just two shots, now you need a booster, now you don’t need a booster but need a third shot (isn’t that just a booster by another name), now you need two and an ongoing series of boosters. We just don’t know yet.
I’ve been getting info here, thanks DP and jojo and you all, and from my doctor. I still feel like there isn’t enough solid info to justify getting it.

Blah, blah, blah. I don't care. It's like eating glass. There is no point reading your arguments or trying to refute them. You won't change my mind and the only thing that will change yours is if people close to you get seriously ill or die.