Post-Game Talk: #80 | Bruins at Flyers | April 9, 2023

[Ghosts Beer]

They could have brought up Foerster and Attard and Zamula the second half, maybe won a couple more games, and picked 8th or 9th. Instead, those minutes went to players they're evaluating in the "who gets thrown off the island" phase of rebuilding.

I don't see how you can expect much more from the current group other than play hard and learn from your mistakes. Torts has tried a lot of combinations the last few weeks, more about player evaluation than winning games.

The real changes will come in June. Trades are going to happen.

I'd say Foerster, Zamula and Attard are locks for next season.
Desnoyers faded a bit down the stretch, Lycksell didn't show well, but they'll get a shot in TC.
Ginning surprised, and they may give him a game, but I think he returns to LHV with Andrae to start next season.

Many fans seem miserable that they have only won 29 games, as if they underachieved, even without Couturier and Atkinson.

Many fans seem miserable that they won *too many* games, and will merely be 7th worst instead of in the "hunt" for worst record in the league and a few more lottery balls.

Basically, misery any way you slice the season.

I'm in the minority in that I think the season on the whole was a positive.

Despite it being lost out of the gate with the Couturier and Atkinson not playing, the Flyers re-established consistent competitiveness, were actually watchable the majority of games despite their lack of talent, and had some young players demonstrate real development.

And they still are going to have a very high pick in an excellent early first round.

(Plus, let's face it, it would be damn near impossible to be as bad as the four of CBJ, CHI, ANA, and SJ, no matter what.)

They also got to engage in a significant amount of player evaluation regarding who fits and who does not going forward.

I think they're on the right track, and they have a coach, management, and ownership now all on the same page agreeing that this is going to take time and can't try to be rushed.

I look forward to the draft lottery. I look forward to the draft. I look forward to the off-season and seeing which veterans they trade. I look forward to seeing which "second-tier" type free agents they add who they feel fit missing roles. And I look forward to seeing which of the promising young prospects make the Flyers full-time next season.

 

[deadhead]

They lack offensive talent, both playmakers and "snipers."

TK is the only plus shooter, Frost has potential in that role, Tippett has a great release but lacks accuracy. Laughton has a good shot but is better suited to LW than center.

The rest, meh. Farabee is more scorer than shooter (that is, he works best in the dirty areas with quick hands). Cates is learning on the job, JVR may have hit the downslide of the age curve and was best on the side of the blue paint, Hayes was a misfit. Allison is a big, try hard guy with average offensive skills.

Frost is their only playmaker and he's still too inconsistent, struggles against close checking teams.

The D-men struggled to get comfortable playing a bigger role on offense, and forwards learning to cycle to protect them.

We know this team needs an influx of offensive talent, Foerster will help next year, maybe Brink. Couts and Atkinson if healthy are upgrades over JVR and Hayes. But they need a bunch more.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The last seven games, 5 on the road, 4 against PO teams, 2 against teams fighting to make the POs, I'd say an xGF 47.84% is evidence of a team with limited talent playing hard. Just look at the teams that have gone belly up since the TDL and their putrid xGF%.

I think if you asked any player, it's really hard to go out there and play hard with a few games left in the season and nothing to play for other than stat padding.

And I'll give Tourigny some credit in Arizona, they haven't gone belly up despite maybe the worst roster in the NHL after TDL trades.

The team sucks and Tortorella will make it worse if they do what he wants.

 

[Starat327]

I feel like if a team has nothing to play for, thats a failure on management's end. Maybe I could be mistaken though.

I also feel like allowing the team to dog it just because there's nothing to play for flies in the face of the culture that Tortorella is in charge of. But what do I know.

 

[dragonoffrost]

Many fans seem miserable that they have only won 29 games, as if they underachieved, even without Couturier and Atkinson.

Many fans seem miserable that they won *too many* games, and will merely be 7th worst instead of in the "hunt" for worst record in the league and a few more lottery balls.

Basically, misery any way you slice the season.

I'm in the minority in that I think the season on the whole was a positive.

Despite it being lost out of the gate with the Couturier and Atkinson not playing, the Flyers re-established consistent competitiveness, were actually watchable the majority of games despite their lack of talent, and had some young players demonstrate real development.

And they still are going to have a very high pick in an excellent early first round.

(Plus, let's face it, it would be damn near impossible to be as bad as the four of CBJ, CHI, ANA, and SJ, no matter what.)

They also got to engage in a significant amount of player evaluation regarding who fits and who does not going forward.

I think they're on the right track, and they have a coach, management, and ownership now all on the same page agreeing that this is going to take time and can't try to be rushed.

I look forward to the draft lottery. I look forward to the draft. I look forward to the off-season and seeing which veterans they trade. I look forward to seeing which "second-tier" type free agents they add who they feel fit missing roles. And I look forward to seeing which of the promising young prospects make the Flyers full-time next season.

The team is in purgatory. That's why you got people bitching that they won too many or too few game. They won't break the being bad if they can't add high end talent. This was a season to be really bad and get one player with that kind of talent. They wouldn't admit that Coots and Cam were done for the year and instead drug along the mantra of trying to be competitive. Admitting they weren't going to come back the fan base would have accepted a tank and get a player of higher talent than they will get.

 

[macleish1974]

Those stats look like laying down and dying.

Being in company with some of the worst teams in the league makes them look worse.

Motivation was going to be fixed by the magical Tortorella. What went wrong? How did he fail?

You have to have real talent to be magical as well as an exceptional coach with a 21st century system.

Happens to be a perfect storm. Unfortunately we are on the boat.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Just know that this organization did not want to give these young players more ice time. They didn’t want to give them a chance. It was not their plan.

They only did so due to injuries. The organization should not be applauded for what happened.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Just know that this organization did not want to give these young players more ice time. They didn’t want to give them a chance. It was not their plan.

They only did so due to injuries. The organization should not be applauded for what happened.

As indicated by refusing to give any guys NHL time to see where they are and get them experience while the season is lost, except when forces to.

Youth Movement lol

 

[dragonoffrost]

Revolving door?????

More like Fort Knox safe

 

[renberg]

There is a group of quitters on the club that needs to be replaced starting with Hayes and TDA. My call is that Torts went to the press box to get away from them and to see if not having his presence behind the bench would be a motivational tactic for these guys. It didn’t work.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The team is in purgatory. That's why you got people bitching that they won too many or too few game. They won't break the being bad if they can't add high end talent. This was a season to be really bad and get one player with that kind of talent. They wouldn't admit that Coots and Cam were done for the year and instead drug along the mantra of trying to be competitive. Admitting they weren't going to come back the fan base would have accepted a tank and get a player of higher talent than they will get.

So then what would your plan have been?

Tell the team to throw games?

Trade Konecny and Hart before the season starts?

And still end up in a dogfight with four other teams, Columbus, Chicago, Anaheim, and San Jose, for worst record in the league?

So you guarantee yourself, what, 5th worst record instead of 7th worst?

And remain at the mercy of the hockey gods and lottery balls?

All while digging yourself an even deeper hole by intentionally entrenching bad, losing habits and atmosphere?

No thanks.

 

[dragonoffrost]

So then what would your plan have been?

Tell the team to throw games?

Trade Konecny and Hart before the season starts?

And still end up in a dogfight with four other teams, Columbus, Chicago, Anaheim, and San Jose, for worst record in the league?

So you guarantee yourself, what, 5th worst record instead of 7th worst?

And remain at the mercy of the hockey gods and lottery balls?

All while digging yourself an even deeper hole by intentionally entrenching bad, losing habits and atmosphere?

No thanks.

In a draft that is 5 high end talent players deep I'd prefer knowing 2 of your top 4 players won't play to admit that you would be better off with a high chance of getting one of those 5 prospects.

What kids were around to be allowed to develop bad habits? Guess what none of consequence other than the goalies. Of course that will be screamed at as a huge issue since goalies are mental cases.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So then what would your plan have been?

Tell the team to throw games?

Trade Konecny and Hart before the season starts?

And still end up in a dogfight with four other teams, Columbus, Chicago, Anaheim, and San Jose, for worst record in the league?

So you guarantee yourself, what, 5th worst record instead of 7th worst?

And remain at the mercy of the hockey gods and lottery balls?

All while digging yourself an even deeper hole by intentionally entrenching bad, losing habits and atmosphere?

No thanks.

As opposed to doing the same things anyway but with worse results and even less future chance for improvement?

 

[pooch]

We should definitely stay the course of trading lots of draft picks for bad players, resigning those players to bad deals, signing 4th line scrubs to 4 yr deals and doing nothing of significance at the trade deadline. Solid plan.

 

[mja]

So then what would your plan have been?

Tell the team to throw games?

Trade Konecny and Hart before the season starts?

And still end up in a dogfight with four other teams, Columbus, Chicago, Anaheim, and San Jose, for worst record in the league?

So you guarantee yourself, what, 5th worst record instead of 7th worst?

And remain at the mercy of the hockey gods and lottery balls?


No thanks.

My plan? Don't re-sign Risto. Trade him last deadline to recoup lost picks. Don't sign Deslauriers or trade 3 draft picks for TDA. Hire Jimmy Montgomery, not Torts. Start a youth movement from day one of the season and let them work through their hiccups. Don't wait for the last minute to try to move JVR. I'd have tried to pump and dump Hayes.

This isn't rocket science and none of that is hindsight, btw.

Moving forward, yeah, I'd probably try to squeeze a first out of some team desperate for a goalie in exchange for Hart. Trade Provorov for more picks. TK might be young enough to keep around at least for another year.

All while digging yourself an even deeper hole by [un]intentionally entrenching bad, losing habits and atmosphere?

Too late. You outright refuse to figure it out, because cognitive dissonance and all that, but this asinine obsession with developing a "winning" team culture (circa 1974) IS the problem, that's the hole we keep digging deeper, that's what already led to entrenched bad, losing habits and atmosphere.

 

[Fight4yourRight]

They could have brought up Foerster and Attard and Zamula the second half, maybe won a couple more games, and picked 8th or 9th. Instead, those minutes went to players they're evaluating in the "who gets thrown off the island" phase of rebuilding.

I don't see how you can expect much more from the current group other than play hard and learn from your mistakes. Torts has tried a lot of combinations the last few weeks, more about player evaluation than winning games.

The real changes will come in June. Trades are going to happen.

I'd say Foerster, Zamula and Attard are locks for next season.
Desnoyers faded a bit down the stretch, Lycksell didn't show well, but they'll get a shot in TC.
Ginning surprised, and they may give him a game, but I think he returns to LHV with Andrae to start next season.

Yes. I remember the last billion or so times you proclaimed a young player to be a lock on this roster. You’re invariably wrong.

 

[deadhead]

The team is in purgatory. That's why you got people bitching that they won too many or too few game. They won't break the being bad if they can't add high end talent. This was a season to be really bad and get one player with that kind of talent. They wouldn't admit that Coots and Cam were done for the year and instead drug along the mantra of trying to be competitive. Admitting they weren't going to come back the fan base would have accepted a tank and get a player of higher talent than they will get.

Which is why Scott and Fletcher are gone, and the advisors are being put out to pasture.
Briere and Torts have no illusions about the talent base, Torts was calling for a rebuild this fall, and Briere made it clear it was going to be a long-term process.

But be realistic about what you can trade, the Flyers didn't have 30 year old proven starters going into their contract year, their young players were mostly later 1st rd picks who weren't all stars, they weren't going to make any blockbuster trades.

They've now got #5, #7 in consecutive drafts, (2) 1sts, (2) 2nds next season, probably a nice haul for Provorov, maybe trade another young player, and a 3rd rd pick or so for Hayes and a bad contract coming back (that maybe will be flipped with money retained for another pick).

It's going to take a few years to build critical mass, but look at the top goal scorers (40+):
McDavid #1
Pastrnak #25
Rantanen #10
Draisaitl #3
Point #79
Thompson #26
Robertson #39
Hughes #1
Ovechkin #1
Verhaeghe #82
Tkachuk #6
Meier #9

Only 4 of the top 13 goal scores were top 5 picks.
It's harder without a #1, but not impossible to land some elite scorers.


Tkachuk #6
Scheifele #7
Meier #9

Only 4 of the top 1

Yes. I remember the last billion or so times you proclaimed a young player to be a lock on this roster. You’re invariably wrong.

Oh, like Cates?

Or when people were telling me the Flyers got robbed for G, that Tippett was a bottom six forward, 24 goals and counting later . . .

 

[FlyerNutter]

Very easy to preach rebuild from the roof tops, but be too stupid - and chickenshit to do actually commit to it.

 

[dragonoffrost]

Oh, like Cates?

Or when people were telling me the Flyers got robbed for G, that Tippett was a bottom six forward, 24 goals and counting later . . .

So one prospect you were right on from last summer out of how many?

I believe you had York and Attard starting with the team and there were others too...


Oh and Tippett wouldn't have that many goals without Atkinson missing the season. He'd be 3 RW....
Remember Cam is a Torts guy.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Which is why Scott and Fletcher are gone, and the advisors are being put out to pasture.
Briere and Torts have no illusions about the talent base, Torts was calling for a rebuild this fall, and Briere made it clear it was going to be a long-term process.

But be realistic about what you can trade, the Flyers didn't have 30 year old proven starters going into their contract year, their young players were mostly later 1st rd picks who weren't all stars, they weren't going to make any blockbuster trades.

They've now got #5, #7 in consecutive drafts, (2) 1sts, (2) 2nds next season, probably a nice haul for Provorov, maybe trade another young player, and a 3rd rd pick or so for Hayes and a bad contract coming back (that maybe will be flipped with money retained for another pick).

It's going to take a few years to build critical mass, but look at the top goal scorers (40+):
McDavid #1
Pastrnak #25
Rantanen #10
Draisaitl #3
Point #79
Thompson #26
Robertson #39
Hughes #1
Ovechkin #1
Verhaeghe #82
Tkachuk #6
Meier #9

Only 4 of the top 13 goal scores were top 5 picks.
It's harder without a #1, but not impossible to land some elite scorers.


Tkachuk #6
Scheifele #7
Meier #9

Only 4 of the top 1


Oh, like Cates?

Or when people were telling me the Flyers got robbed for G, that Tippett was a bottom six forward, 24 goals and counting later . . .

The advisors aren't being put out to pasture. They're being lavished with over the top praise and they'll still have input.

Tortorella does not want more talent, not in any way you think he does. He's told us what he wants. He wants more grinders. That's his idea of talent. Grinding. Blocking shots. Barkov over McDavid. Cates over a Frost who has outplayed him. Seeler as a core piece. He wants more of everything that makes the team bad. He is an arrogant and stubborn egotripper who is also a massive asshole, is too lazy to actually coach, and is too lazy to learn how the game works anymore. He has completely lost touch with the sport. That the team is making it clear he's going to be highly influential is a tremendous problem which helps assure the team will be bad for years to come.

 

[mja]

They lack offensive talent, both playmakers and "snipers."

TK is the only plus shooter, Frost has potential in that role, Tippett has a great release but lacks accuracy. Laughton has a good shot but is better suited to LW than center.

The rest, meh. Farabee is more scorer than shooter...

If memory serves, you had Farabee penciled in as a PPG 1st line winger when he signed his contract.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If memory serves, you had Farabee penciled in as a PPG 1st line winger when he signed his contract.

And Allison would soon make us forget about Voracek

 

[renberg]

The advisors aren't being put out to pasture. They're being lavished with over the top praise and they'll still have input.

Tortorella does not want more talent, not in any way you think he does. He's told us what he wants. He wants more grinders. That's his idea of talent. Grinding. Blocking shots. Barkov over McDavid. Cates over a Frost who has outplayed him. Seeler as a core piece. He wants more of everything that makes the team bad. He is an arrogant and stubborn egotripper who is also a massive asshole, is too lazy to actually coach, and is too lazy to learn how the game works anymore. He has completely lost touch with the sport. That the team is making it clear he's going to be highly influential is a tremendous problem which helps assure the team will be bad for years to come.

Yes but that arrogant, stubborn, ego tripping, asshole has twelve million reasons to hang around for three more years. He's not going away so we're going to have to learn to live with him. Comcast threw away $25M on AV. They're not going to trash out $12M more with Torts.

 

[Embiid]

The advisors aren't being put out to pasture. They're being lavished with over the top praise and they'll still have input.

Tortorella does not want more talent, not in any way you think he does. He's told us what he wants. He wants more grinders. That's his idea of talent. Grinding. Blocking shots. Barkov over McDavid. Cates over a Frost who has outplayed him. Seeler as a core piece. He wants more of everything that makes the team bad. He is an arrogant and stubborn egotripper who is also a massive asshole, is too lazy to actually coach, and is too lazy to learn how the game works anymore. He has completely lost touch with the sport. That the team is making it clear he's going to be highly influential is a tremendous problem which helps assure the team will be bad for years to come.

They have been referrred to as "Titans"....lolz

 

[dragonoffrost]

Yes but that arrogant, stubborn, ego tripping, asshole has twelve million reasons to hang around for three more years. He's not going away so we're going to have to learn to live with him. Comcast threw away $25M on AV. They're not going to trash out $12M more with Torts.

They may have to throw more money away or they will throw it away in other ways.