4th Overall the Senators Take Brady Tkachuk

[Upgrayedd]

I would argue that Tkachuk also has an 'it' factor that you can't teach in terms of intensity and going to the dirty areas to get goals, while still having high end skill. Players like that don't grow on trees.

You can say that again, just in Ottawa how many absolute monsters have we seen come through town and play the game with a smile on their faces and get tossed around in the corner against much smaller opponents. Currently looking at you Ben Harper!

 

[Solarion]

Irrelevant. You're trying to compare the point totals of two different players in two different leagues in order to determine how many they'll get in a completely different league? ok.

Both prospects have competed in international tournaments...but then you knew that already...

 

[swiftwin]

Both prospects have competed in international tournaments...but then you knew that already...

I don't get the point you're trying to make. Tkachuk had one more point at the WJC last year. Not that it matters, since it's a small sample size.

 

[bert]

Most people on here claim he’s better than his brother. I wonder if he’ll be on the roster and make an impact.

I really dont think he is personally, his older brother has more elite hockey sense and a better down low and net front presence. Brady is a better skater, better off the rush and is rangier but I dont think he is better no. I think Matt benefited greatly from playing in London.

 

[Solarion]

Irrelevant. You're trying to compare the point totals of two different players in two different leagues in order to determine how many they'll get in a completely different league? ok.

I don't get the point you're trying to make. Tkachuk had one more point at the WJC last year. Not that it matters, since it's a small sample size.

LOL So there is some way to compare these two against similar competition then?

Yes, one of these prospects has been > a ppg player in international play and the other has not. Did we really have waste time discussing what was obvious to us both?

 

[DJB]

My guess he goes back to BU. I'm fine with that

 

[swiftwin]

You can say that again, just in Ottawa how many absolute monsters have we seen come through town and play the game with a smile on their faces and get tossed around in the corner against much smaller opponents. Currently looking at you Ben Harper!

Exactly. Why do you think Boucher kept putting Burrows on our PP when Ryan was hurt? He was the only one willing to fight in the dirty areas in front of the net. Our top 6 was soft as f***. Ryan was the only top 6 player willing to fight in these areas, and sometimes Brass. Guess which two forwards were our top producers in our 2017 playoff run?

 

[Upgrayedd]

Exactly. Why do you think Boucher kept putting Burrows on our PP when Ryan was hurt? He was the only one willing to fight in the dirty areas in front of the net. Our top 6 was soft as ****. Ryan was the only top 6 player willing to fight in these areas, and sometimes Brass. Guess which two forwards were our top producers in our 2017 playoff run?

Agree with the general sentiment although don't personally remember Burrows doing anything but being an absolute liability virtually every time on the ice, but I digress, Ryan on the other hand seemed to be one of the only players on the team that understands where the net was located during those rare times last year that we actually held the zone.

 

[swiftwin]

LOL So there is some way to compare these two against similar competition then?

Yes, one of these prospects has been > a ppg player in international play and the other has not. Did we really have waste time discussing what was obvious to us both?

[MOD: no] I literally said it doesn't matter because sample size is too small, and you immediately put words in my mouth.

Also, Tkachuk has been atleast PPG in every relevant tournent (Zadina has not), so I don't know where you're getting your stats from. Although I suspect this may fall under reading comprehension issues again.

There are lots of arguments to made for Zadina. Comparing tournament statistics is not one of them.

 

[Solarion]

QEP

You implied there was no way to compare their scoring potential "due to playing in different leagues". When I pointed out there are results from international tournaments that can be used to compare, it's now "too small a sample size" and I'm somehow "putting words in your mouth".

You just don't want to admit what is patently obvious. [mod] Which is of course also why you keep talking about "point totals" rather than goals scored. Yes, Brady had a good juniors tournament this past year, but he still only managed 3 goals in 7 games, while Zadina potted 7.

Zadina is a goal scorer with an elite shot and Tkachuk is not...which is what people have been saying all along.

 

[Masked]

Nope. Do you? You implied there was no way to compare their scoring potential "due to playing in different leagues". When I pointed out there are results from international tournaments that can be used to compare, it's now "too small a sample size" and I'm somehow "putting words in your mouth".

You just don't want to admit what is patently obvious, and are instead going with intentionally obtuse. Which is of course also why you keep talking about "point totals" rather than goals scored. Yes, Brady had a good juniors tournament this past year, but he still only managed 3 goals in 7 games, while Zadina potted 7.

Zadina is a goal scorer with an elite shot and Tkachuk is not...which is what people have been saying all along.

[MOD] You are the one who brought up PPG but you were wrong about which player met that criteria.

I have no idea what you are attempting to argue [MOD]

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Watch the flaming, guys, this is your warning...

 

[Solarion]

but you were wrong about which player met that criteria.

Was I?

Brady Tkachuk in international play:

6(g) 15(a) 21pts in 19 games

Filip Zadina in international play:

20(g) 10(a) 30pts in 26 games

Yeah, it's a small sample size, that's what you get when you compare 18 year olds.

I have no idea what you are attempting to argue

I'm not attempting to argue anything. I'm saying Zadina has an elite shot and Brady Tkachuk does not.

 

[slamigo]

I’m hoping he goes back to school, dominates and also destroys the world juniors. No need for him to go pro yet.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I’m hoping he goes back to school, dominates and also destroys the world juniors. No need for him to go pro yet.

Based on a few takes on here, he may have trouble making that team or at least getting any ice time.

 

[Ice-Tray]

synonyms for tangible..."
touchable, palpable, material, physical, real, substantial, corporeal, solid, concrete;
visible, noticeable, actual, definite, clear, clear-cut, distinct, manifest, evident, unmistakable, perceptible, discernible"

Statistically measurable is not there.. The puck is dumped in the corner .. The opposing D goes to fetch it with Tkachuk on his tail... the fear that D feels is it tangible? is it perceptable? discernable? .. when they get there and the D tries to avoid a hit and Tkachuk takes him out of the play .... Is that tangible? I would say yes... , When the Tkachuk's team mate comes in to support and retrieves the loose puck left after the take out, Is that tangible? I would say for sure.. When that team mate finds the late man open in the slot and sets him up for a grade A chance .. is that play from Tkachuk instrumental? If so , its also tangible. It does not have to be measured as a statistic to be tangible.

I miss read tangible for intangible, my bad.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Brady is worth less IMO because he's not as good at ice hockey as Filip Zadina. It's really really not that complicated.

Again, a position that is not support by any scouting publications, Mac's inside NHL scouts, along with at least 3 NHL team scouts.

But hey, you know best!

 

[JungleBeat]

[MOD] You are the one who brought up PPG but you were wrong about which player met that criteria.

I have no idea what you are attempting to argue [MOD]

That Zadina has better offensive tools than BT.

 

[Micklebot]

Again, a position that is not support by any scouting publications, Mac's inside NHL scouts, along with at least 3 NHL team scouts.

But hey, you know best!

Huh? off the top of my head, ISS, McKeens, Future Considerations, and the draft analyst all had Zadina ahead of Tkachuk. We also don't know that three teams had Tkachuk ahead of Zadina, we only know Ottawa did, as Buf, Car, and Mtl all chose somebody else which tells us nothing about how they ranked the rest of the draft or Tkachuck and Zadina in particular..

I like Tkachuk, but you're off base here. There were certainly some that prefered Tkachuk, but just as many prefered Zadina.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

London has in the past 4 NHL drafts had:
7 1st rounders
2 2nd rounders
2 3rd rounders
3 4th rounders
1 5th rounder
1 6th rounder
1 7th rounder

London is the spot you want your kids to play in the CHL, and have the best draft record in the CHL to show for it.

I'm pretty much starting to sour a bit on the CHL in general.

With so many teams, and the rich teams making super teams, and expansion over the years, plus more top talent going the NCAA route instead...all that stuff adds up.

I'd rather a kid play 50 games per year, with a lot of practice and gym time, than 80+ in the CHL these days.

But like I said, 5-6 years ago, my thoughts would've been the complete opposite.

 

[Knightsfan90]

 

[Ice-Tray]

Huh? off the top of my head, ISS, McKeens, Future Considerations, and the draft analyst all had Zadina ahead of Tkachuk. We also don't know that three teams had Tkachuk ahead of Zadina, we only know Ottawa did, as Buf, Car, and Mtl all chose somebody else which tells us nothing about how they ranked the rest of the draft or Tkachuck and Zadina in particular..

I like Tkachuk, but you're off base here. There were certainly some that prefered Tkachuk, but just as many prefered Zadina.

Naw, not off base at all thanks, just a tad overzealous.

BT has been ranked higher by several publications including central scouting, and no, not all analysts had Zadina ahead. We also don't need to know whether teams had BT ahead of Zadina, only that a bunch of teams didn't view Zadina in the same light as the hand full of posters that I've been discussing with hold him.

As often is the case you're missing the forest for the trees. You're correct in what you've posted for the most part, but it's neither here nor there if you consider the broader context of the discussion. It's one of those times where you can get a pat on the head for your corrections, but once again you're not adding much of substance to the discussion.

It really doesn't matter how many have Zadina ahead or BT ahead, not really. The point is that there is no consensus, these guys were of a similar draft standing with opinions split on who was better. We can't really argue that Zadina is better because some scouting publications had him one slot higher while some had BT lower, while at the same time ignoring other scouting publications, and the NHL draft, that had BT higher and Zadina lower. We can all have our preferences, but we chose a BPA without question, and while different types of players, we chose a guy deserving of his draft position, and our excitement.

The problem is that some folks can't like a guy we didn't pick, without minimalizing the player we did pick. I mean to listen to a few guys, Zadina is on the path to be a scoring star in the NHL, while BT is looking to be a grinding winger with a name, and intangibles.

I like Zadina as a pick and would have been fine with it, but I'm more stoked on BT given the types of players I prefer. Given that both players were consistently ranked in the top 4-5 area I would have been ok with either. I'm also not trying to argue that BT is going to be great for us at the expense of Zadina being a 3rd line scoring winger though. He can be a good player or great player, I don't really care because he's a Red Wing.

People are having to defend our pick because some folks who wanted Zadina can't accept that there were a few players of a similar calibre at the same spot and we chose one. There really is no reason for fans of our team to be arguing that we dropped the ball by passing on Zadina for a clearly inferior player. The evidence actually supports the opposite, that BT was a highly ranked prospect who was a comfortable pick from 3oa on, and the fact that we chose him over Zadina is a difference of skill preference, not talent level.

Like I said, we all have a preference, but the pick has been made, the two players are overwhelmingly accepted to have been on a similar level as draftable prospects, whats to complain about? Let's give the kid a chance to do something here before starting the classic Sens HF board treatment.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Naw, not off base at all thanks, just a tad overzealous.

BT has been ranked higher by several publications including central scouting, and no, not all analysts had Zadina ahead. We also don't need to know whether teams had BT ahead of Zadina, only that a bunch of teams didn't view Zadina in the same light as the hand full of posters that I've been discussing with hold him.

As often is the case you're missing the forest for the trees. You're correct in what you've posted for the most part, but it's neither here nor there if you consider the broader context of the discussion. It's one of those times where you can get a pat on the head for your corrections, but once again you're not adding much of substance to the discussion.

It really doesn't matter how many have Zadina ahead or BT ahead, not really. The point is that there is no consensus, these guys were of a similar draft standing with opinions split on who was better. We can't really argue that Zadina is better because some scouting publications had him one slot higher while some had BT lower, while at the same time ignoring other scouting publications, and the NHL draft, that had BT higher and Zadina lower. We can all have our preferences, but we chose a BPA without question, and while different types of players, we chose a guy deserving of his draft position, and our excitement.

The problem is that some folks can't like a guy we didn't pick, without minimalizing the player we did pick. I mean to listen to a few guys, Zadina is on the path to be a scoring star in the NHL, while BT is looking to be a grinding winger with a name, and intangibles.

I like Zadina as a pick and would have been fine with it, but I'm more stoked on BT given the types of players I prefer. Given that both players were consistently ranked in the top 4-5 area I would have been ok with either. I'm also not trying to argue that BT is going to be great for us at the expense of Zadina being a 3rd line scoring winger though. He can be a good player or great player, I don't really care because he's a Red Wing.

People are having to defend our pick because some folks who wanted Zadina can't accept that there were a few players of a similar calibre at the same spot and we chose one. There really is no reason for fans of our team to be arguing that we dropped the ball by passing on Zadina for a clearly inferior player. The evidence actually supports the opposite, that BT was a highly ranked prospect who was a comfortable pick from 3oa on, and the fact that we chose him over Zadina is a difference of skill preference, not talent level.

Like I said, we all have a preference, but the pick has been made, the two players are overwhelmingly accepted to have been on a similar level as draftable prospects, whats to complain about? Let's give the kid a chance to do something here before starting the classic Sens HF board treatment.

Bro you said that preferring Zadina is “not supported by any scouting publications”. There’s no missing the forest for the trees here, that’s a flat-out incorrect statement.

 

[Micklebot]

Naw, not off base at all thanks, just a tad overzealous.

BT has been ranked higher by several publications including central scouting, and no, not all analysts had Zadina ahead. We also don't need to know whether teams had BT ahead of Zadina, only that a bunch of teams didn't view Zadina in the same light as the hand full of posters that I've been discussing with hold him.

As often is the case you're missing the forest for the trees. You're correct in what you've posted for the most part, but it's neither here nor there if you consider the broader context of the discussion. It's one of those times where you can get a pat on the head for your corrections, but once again you're not adding much of substance to the discussion.

It really doesn't matter how many have Zadina ahead or BT ahead, not really. The point is that there is no consensus, these guys were of a similar draft standing with opinions split on who was better. We can't really argue that Zadina is better because some scouting publications had him one slot higher while some had BT lower, while at the same time ignoring other scouting publications, and the NHL draft, that had BT higher and Zadina lower. We can all have our preferences, but we chose a BPA without question, and while different types of players, we chose a guy deserving of his draft position, and our excitement.

The problem is that some folks can't like a guy we didn't pick, without minimalizing the player we did pick. I mean to listen to a few guys, Zadina is on the path to be a scoring star in the NHL, while BT is looking to be a grinding winger with a name, and intangibles.

I like Zadina as a pick and would have been fine with it, but I'm more stoked on BT given the types of players I prefer. Given that both players were consistently ranked in the top 4-5 area I would have been ok with either. I'm also not trying to argue that BT is going to be great for us at the expense of Zadina being a 3rd line scoring winger though. He can be a good player or great player, I don't really care because he's a Red Wing.

People are having to defend our pick because some folks who wanted Zadina can't accept that there were a few players of a similar calibre at the same spot and we chose one. There really is no reason for fans of our team to be arguing that we dropped the ball by passing on Zadina for a clearly inferior player. The evidence actually supports the opposite, that BT was a highly ranked prospect who was a comfortable pick from 3oa on, and the fact that we chose him over Zadina is a difference of skill preference, not talent level.

Like I said, we all have a preference, but the pick has been made, the two players are overwhelmingly accepted to have been on a similar level as draftable prospects, whats to complain about? Let's give the kid a chance to do something here before starting the classic Sens HF board treatment.

So to recap:

You: You guys are all crazy, going against concensus; every publication had Tkachuk ahead, We even know a bunch of teams had him ahead.

Me: Actually, you are incorrect; lots of publications had Zadina ahead, while others had Tkachuk ahead (this implies no concensus). The only team we know had Tkachuk ahead for sure is Ottawa, as they are the only team that directly chose one over the other.

You: You're missing the forest among the trees. There was no concensus, blah blah blah.

You seem to think I was implying Zadina was the obvious pick, but in fact, I was showing that both you and those who where on the opposite side of the spectrum were mistaken.

Oddly, I've been one poster to support the Tkachuk pick since before the draft, but you seem to want to lump me in with those who are ragging on the pick.

 

[NyQuil]

I still don’t like the pick.

Obviously you can’t predict the entire arc of a player’s development, but to me, Zadina has 1st line potential and Tkachuk will top out as a 2nd line player.

Anyway, I’m not going to get angry at people who like Tkachuk but my feelings since the draft haven’t changed.

This “only one draft rank difference” argument ignores the fact that there appeared to be a clear delineation between #3 and #4 ranked players prior to the draft.

It’s why Sens fans were so disappointed with the 4th lottery pick.

The fact that Montreal, Arizona and Ottawa decided to try to outsmart the rankings doesn’t change the general impression going into the draft.

If you’re interested, here are people’s objective opinions prior to the selection.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/if-zadina-falls-to-the-sens-should-they-take-him.2499001/