Prospect Info: 47OA: Brady Cleveland

[jaster]

It’s not the straying from the consensus, it’s the complete lack of an offensive game and offensive tools.

Those other two guys tracking decent says nothing about Cleveland. Hanas and Mazur both had a much better offensive game. As evidence as then both being able to put up some points the year they were drafted.

Cleveland > Hanas AINEC (that means, "and it's not even close," which makes my point more true, GO AHEAD AND IGNORE ME FRK IT)

 

[jaster]

In general I like adding a player with his skill set to our group.

The issue is that the task of re building is so hard that you should not use one of your premium assets (top 2 round picks) on a player like this.

Those are 2 different things.

Wait, I thought the problem wasn't with where he was picked, but with his skillset (lacking offense)? Now the skillset is ok and the problem is back with where he was picked? Make up your mind, ya hoser!

 

[jaster]

Smith was just an example of how low production transfers to the next level as much as people pretend that it doesn't

Smith's problem was never that he couldn't score. It's that he couldn't skate. He couldn't skate from point A to point B in time to deploy what tools he actually has. And even still, he's clinging to the NHL. Cleveland skates far better (and plays a completely different position), so it's a weird comparison.

 

[newfy]

Smith's problem was never that he couldn't score. It's that he couldn't skate. He couldn't skate from point A to point B in time to deploy what tools he actually has. And even still, he's clinging to the NHL. Cleveland skates far better (and plays a completely different position), so it's a weird comparison.

Its an extremely weird/lazy comparison. Smiths production was actually decent in junior (especially his draft year) but he doesnt have the wheels to do it at the next level. As a late second rounder, even making it is half decent

Its one of those, these are two players I didnt like at draft time so I'm gonna lump them together. No real similarities at all

 

[Frk It]

Wait, I thought the problem wasn't with where he was picked, but with his skillset (lacking offense)? Now the skillset is ok and the problem is back with where he was picked? Make up your mind, ya hoser!

I don’t mind adding players like this to our pool, just not where we picked him.

You want to draft a 6’5 or 6’6 defenseman that is physical and put up no points at the junior level? Fine, draft Matteo Mann in the 7th round like Philly did.

We should be using our 2nd and 3rd rounders on high upside players until we actually have elite NHL players on our roster. Imagine if Tampa didn’t draft Kucherov or Point in those drafts and drafted a defensive defenseman instead. Changes the whole outcome of the roster build.

 

[Astyanax]

I don’t mind adding players like this to our pool, just not where we picked him.

You want to draft a 6’5 or 6’6 defenseman that is physical and put up no points at the junior level? Fine, draft Matteo Mann in the 7th round like Philly did.

We should be using our 2nd and 3rd rounders on high upside players until we actually have elite NHL players on our roster. Imagine if Tampa didn’t draft Kucherov orange Point in those drafts and drafted a defensive defenseman instead. Changes the whole outcome of the roster build.

I don't love the pick, or the other defenseman in the 2nd. As we are most solid at d. But the hockey news had him at 73 and other services had him about the same. One even called him a good skater, which he is not. So, let's take a deep breath. I remember the year I wanted kucherov. When talking with the euros he was trending toward a 1st, and when we traded back I was hopeful. But we took jourco, who was supposed to be so skilled, oullet who was sooo smart, and Sproul who was developing at a super rate. And kucherov went 4 picks later. I thought it was sad at the time, but I could see the argurements for each player at the time. I will not rail against the scouts then and I will not rail against them now.
That may have been one where I was right, but there have been many where I was wrong.
So, again let's all take a deep breath.

 

[izlez]

I don’t mind adding players like this to our pool, just not where we picked him.

You want to draft a 6’5 or 6’6 defenseman that is physical and put up no points at the junior level? Fine, draft Matteo Mann in the 7th round like Philly did.

We should be using our 2nd and 3rd rounders on high upside players until we actually have elite NHL players on our roster. Imagine if Tampa didn’t draft Kucherov or Point in those drafts and drafted a defensive defenseman instead. Changes the whole outcome of the roster build.

It's amazing that someone can post something like this unironically.

Yes, in hindsight, it was indeed a good idea to draft some of the best players in the league in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. I'll alert the GM's of this new plan.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It's amazing that someone can post something like this unironically.

Yes, in hindsight, it was indeed a good idea to draft some of the best players in the league in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. I'll alert the GM's of this new plan.

It's extra ironic because those draft years are full of d-men picks from Tampa, many of them fitting a "defensive d-man" mold. Point and Kucherov were no more symbolic of their draft strategy than Lombardi and Buchelnikov are of ours.

 

[Frk It]

It's extra ironic because those draft years are full of d-men picks from Tampa, many of them fitting a "defensive d-man" mold. Point and Kucherov were no more symbolic of their draft strategy than Lombardi and Buchelnikov are of ours.

The logic is simple. Stock up on high upside players until you actually have elite players on your NHL roster.

Just because we have drafted Buchelnikov and Lombardi doesn’t mean they will materialize. You need to draft multiple players with that profile to hit on one.

People on this board like to say “we’re set” because we have x, y, x in the pipeline. No you’re set when you have good versions of NHL players of that on your NHL team.

If Tampa didn’t hit on their defensive defenseman draft picks they could have got players like that other ways. You don’t get Point or Kucherov any other way than drafting them.

 

[izlez]

The logic is simple. Stock up on high upside players until you actually have elite players on your NHL roster.

Just because we have drafted Buchelnikov and Lombardi doesn’t mean they will materialize. You need to draft multiple players with that profile to hit on one.

People on this board like to say “we’re set” because we have x, y, x in the pipeline. No you’re set when you have good versions of NHL players of that on your NHL team.

If Tampa didn’t hit on their defensive defenseman draft picks they could have got players like that other ways. You don’t get Point or Kucherov any other way than drafting them.

I don't know how to emphasize this enough. The Red Wings did not draft Brady Cleveland because they like his name and wanted him to bounce around the ECHL with memories of "hey, we drafted that guy". They have a different opinion on his upside than you do.

We literally just got a Kucherov type player in another way than drafting them.

 

[heyfolks]

Smith's problem was never that he couldn't score. It's that he couldn't skate. He couldn't skate from point A to point B in time to deploy what tools he actually has. And even still, he's clinging to the NHL. Cleveland skates far better (and plays a completely different position), so it's a weird comparison.

/\
THIS!

How Smith ever made it to the NHL is beyond me. That guy was, and is, 2 steps behind the game. Furthermore, when he did get into the play, he was ineffective.

I like this pick and find it off that some say he was picked too high, and go for him in a later round, and another says Smith is a success because 2nd rounders rarely make the NHL.

 

[jaster]

/\
THIS!

How Smith ever made it to the NHL is beyond me. That guy was, and is, 2 steps behind the game. Furthermore, when he did get into the play, he was ineffective.

I was at a private viewing party for a Wings-Hawks game several years ago, when Givani Smith was playing his first full season in GR. It was hosted by Goose Island beer and they had several big names there, including Darren Pang, Paul Coffey, and Chris Chelios. I got to talk to all of them for a good while, and when I was talking to Chelios I specifically asked him about Smith, because he was kind of a highly debated prospect at the time and I was hoping Chelios would give me a candid answer (he was in player development for Detroit at the time, working specifically with GR players). And I'm paraphrasing... 'he won't become a player in the NHL because he can't skate.' He immediately couched that with something like, 'I mean, anything can happen.' Lol. No sugarcoating from Cheli, even as a Wings employee haha.

 

[newfy]

We should be using our 2nd and 3rd rounders on high upside players until we actually have elite NHL players on our roster. Imagine if Tampa didn’t draft Kucherov or Point in those drafts and drafted a defensive defenseman instead. Changes the whole outcome of the roster build.

You and I usually see eye to eye on prospect stuff but I hate this mindset. I've said it a million times but high upside is such a buzzword that gets overused on here.

The wings have taken plenty of high upside guys in the second and third rounds. They've also taken guys who dont fit that traditional style on HFboards but NHL guys think differently. I'm not talking specifically about the Cleveland pick but in general. Guys like Cernak and Carlo were picked in "high upside" spots without high upside and are major contributors on really good teams. Cleveland was good enough to play at the program and with his size/skating/physicality combo,I would argue he has pretty high upside as well if he figures out the game with the puck on his stick.

I've said it a bunch of times, but ALL of the wings best picks recently have been HFboards "low upside" picks. Bertuzzi, Larkin, Seider are currently the best ones in the league... but a lot of the top prospects right now were called low upside at draft time as well. Kasper and Mazur being the obvious ones

 

[Frk It]

You and I usually see eye to eye on prospect stuff but I hate this mindset. I've said it a million times but high upside is such a buzzword that gets overused on here.

The wings have taken plenty of high upside guys in the second and third rounds. They've also taken guys who dont fit that traditional style on HFboards but NHL guys think differently. I'm not talking specifically about the Cleveland pick but in general. Guys like Cernak and Carlo were picked in "high upside" spots without high upside and are major contributors on really good teams. Cleveland was good enough to play at the program and with his size/skating/physicality combo,I would argue he has pretty high upside as well if he figures out the game with the puck on his stick.

I've said it a bunch of times, but ALL of the wings best picks recently have been HFboards "low upside" picks. Bertuzzi, Larkin, Seider are currently the best ones in the league... but a lot of the top prospects right now were called low upside at draft time as well. Kasper and Mazur being the obvious ones

I get some of what you’re saying.

It just bothers me that people are talking about our draft philosophy like we are a 100+ pt team like Toronto or something and can afford to draft (likely) role players with premium picks.

We need to chase upside with our premium picks til we have elite NHL players. That’s where I’m at. If that’s an oversimplified or idealistic view for some, that’s fine. I want to see us be a good team again and we are only going to do that by adding difference makers.

Can’t speak for others, but I didn’t have an issue with the Kasper pick. I liked the Danielson pick. Was in total wait and see mode with Seider bc I had seen literally 0 of him prior to drafting him. Loved the Raymond and Edvinsson picks and that was who I would have picked in both case. I think the process in the first round with Yzerman has been great so far. It’s rounds 2-7 where I am tiling my head sideways and saying, “what are y’all doing”….

Most of what I’m saying isn’t really just about Cleveland but moreso an overall philosophy, so I’ll put a pin in it in this thread for now. I’ve already said what I think of this pick. I will still root for this kid regardless. I don’t like having soft defenseman like Dekeyser on the team that lose battles in front of the net and the corners.

 

[Retire91]

I'll give Yzerman the benefit of the doubt he has the ability to find under the radar players that bring extra from where they were ranked. I would give it time. Sure there will be more misses than hits. It just stinks when it feel like a major reach when there was a lot of talent on the board.

 

[heyfolks]

I was at a private viewing party for a Wings-Hawks game several years ago, when Givani Smith was playing his first full season in GR. It was hosted by Goose Island beer and they had several big names there, including Darren Pang, Paul Coffey, and Chris Chelios. I got to talk to all of them for a good while, and when I was talking to Chelios I specifically asked him about Smith, because he was kind of a highly debated prospect at the time and I was hoping Chelios would give me a candid answer (he was in player development for Detroit at the time, working specifically with GR players). And I'm paraphrasing... 'he won't become a player in the NHL because he can't skate.' He immediately couched that with something like, 'I mean, anything can happen.' Lol. No sugarcoating from Cheli, even as a Wings employee haha.

Gotta love Chelios! His brother coached my son. Same attitude. haha

 

[Killerjas]

Its been months, but I am still pissed off that we drafted a boxer on skates with 0 offense when so many talented players were available

 

[Henkka]

Its been months, but I am still pissed off that we drafted a boxer on skates with 0 offense when so many talented players were available

Who was there on your pick at #47 ?

Let's put some names in here and raise this topic up after 10 years.

Time to give some names in here instead of continuous whining, how the grass is always greener elsewhere.

Cleveland could bust and your favourite #47 pick could bust with same probability. That's what will happen with lower picks. The most probable outcome. 80% will bust at #47 range.

We move on and will stop crying after these things. They did draft normally with normal picks and did some special "swings" with extra picks. I see this plan as good as any other plan. Just keep on the plan. Excecute it.

 

[Killerjas]

I like these kind of selections because everyone is pissed off about it and it usually comes back to haunt them in 5 years. Much like the Tyler Bertuzzi uproar. Turns out, after Bert proved to be a real hockey player, everyone was like, "Yeah, I knew he was a stud all along!".

People want the Tomas Jurco's and Teemu Pulkkinen's of the draft. Because flash = projection.

What do you mean it comes back to haunt them in 5 years? Most 2nd round picks fail to make it to the NHL, how does it haunt them when they said it was a shit pick lol?

Who was there on your pick at #47.

Let's put some names in here and raise this topic up after 10 years.

Sure, at 47 I liked Fisker Mølgaard, Sawchyn and Heidt. Would have drafted Heidt at 47

 

[Henkka]

Sure, at 47 I liked Fisker Mølgaard, Sawchyn and Heidt. Would have drafted Heidt at 47

Thanks.

I had 7 guys higher than #47 on my list:

23rd - F Riley Heidt (went 64th to MIN)
32nd - RD Lukas Dragisevic (went 57th to SEA)
33rd - RW Koehn Ziemmer (went 78th to LAK)
38th - LD Caden Price (went 84th to SEA)
40th - RW Jayden Perron (went 94th to CAR)
41st - F Oscar Fisker MØlgaard (went 52nd to SEA)
45th - RD Hunter Brzustevic (went 75th to VAN)

So, instead of Cleveland, there was a chance to get somebody of these.

And, the next pick was at #73 overall, so there was also 50/50 chance to get one of these at the 3rd round pick.

But they did pick Noah Dower-Nilsson at #73, who was 63rd on my list. Kind of normal pick there.

So, after 10 years we can come back here and see, if Heidt or Fisker Molgaard did beat Brady Cleveland. Those two names were the ones we both liked, before him.

After 10 years, if the developmet goes well, Cleveland could be same as Nikita Zadorov is nowadays. That could be his projection. Big, physical hard-hitting defenceman.

I could see the potential of Nick Paul in Fisker Molgaard. He is now at same age as Oscar after 10 years.

Riley Heidt will proably be, after 10 years, something like Max Domi is nowadays.

 

[lilidk]

Its been months, but I am still pissed off that we drafted a boxer on skates with 0 offense when so many talented players were available

Sure it was bad pick, he should be taken much later, but how many good picks we got in the second round under Yzerman?
AJ Wallinder, Buchelnikov? Are any of those sure things, we don't know yet, we just hope someone will be good.

 

[RRhoads]

What impresses me the most about these boards is the number of scouts on here.

 

[Henkka]

What impresses me the most about these boards is the number of scouts on here.

It's hockey's future.

It's about predicting the future. The main principle. That has always been in here.

I'm one of the "scouts", you hate or love it.

 

[Christien]

I like the idea of Mike Hastings coaching this guy. Hopefully Hastings can turn Wisconsin's program around and into a defensive powerhouse the way Mankato was set up.

 

[lilidk]

What impresses me the most about these boards is the number of scouts on here.

There are no scouts here , just people with their opinion. When you spend some time to learn about prospect you could have your own opinion, doesn't mean it is right, just my opinion at this moment. I have never paid attention on Cleveland, because he was projected 3-4 round and we have 3 second round picks, so many guys to choose from