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Prospect Info: '24-'25 Prospects Thread: Generation Z

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Gurglesons said:
Knies isn't killing it. He's just getting fed minutes in the top six. Weird how some teams play their prospects in the top six, I admit.
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Weird take. I mean he’s on pace for 30 goals and 50pts as a 22 year old. And it’s pretty much all EVS. He is second on the leafs in Even strength goals. 2 behind Willy.

I mean that’s pretty darn good. Ya he gets 18 mins a night but he’s doing well with the time he is getting.
 
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eXile3 said:
Right but if you look at teams competing for Cups, which is what you hope to do, it’s closer to 40.

I agree that he could very well could be a productive NHLer. It’s way too early to tell. I was just stating that you do need to produce at some level even on a 3rd line.
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Are you sure about that?

Only 6 players on the Stanley Cup winning Panthers had over 40 points (one of whom was Tarasenko who was acquired at the deadline, so only 14 of his points were with the Panthers). And only 8 forwards had over 30 points. They were Reinhart (94), Tkachuk (88), Barkov (80), Verhaeghe (72), Tarasenko (55, though only 14 of them with the Panthers), Bennett (41), Rodrigues (39) and Lundell (35).

For the previous year, the Knights had 5 forwards (plus 2 defensemen) who hit over 40 points, and a total of... 8 forwards who had 30 or more points (the 8th had exactly 30).

And going back a year before that? The Avs were a powerhouse. They had 6 forwards (plus two defensemen) who scored over 40 points. And, er, well, 8 forwards who scored 30 or more points.

It's almost like even Stanley Cup winning teams can only fit so many players who can score over 30 points under the Cap or something.

Every single Cup Winning team of the last several years had at least one forward in the top nine who scored less than 30 points.

I'm not saying that Howe will produce 30 points in the NHL (or even make it at all), I'm just saying that if he did, that would be quite acceptable for a third-line forward. Even on a team with Cup aspirations.
 
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Darren McCord said:
Weird take. I mean he’s on pace for 30 goals and 50pts as a 22 year old. And it’s pretty much all EVS. He is second on the leafs in Even strength goals. 2 behind Willy.

I mean that’s pretty darn good. Ya he gets 18 mins a night but he’s doing well with the time he is getting.
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He’s Bryan Rust for the Leafs. When they give him 6+ mil, guarantee fans are bitching about it. Also his numbers are heavily inflated by a recent 5 point game.
 
Gurglesons said:
He’s Bryan Rust for the Leafs. When they give him 6+ mil, guarantee fans are bitching about it. Also his numbers are heavily inflated by a recent 5 point game.
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lol ok

bryan rust didn’t hit these numbers until he was 25. But even so Bryan rust has been a good player for the pens. Anyone would be happy pulling a player like him in the second round.

Your just down on him cause he was a Dubas pick and you hate Dubas.
 
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I mean, any player that makes it to the NHL is a bona fide good pick, doesn't mean one has to be excited about every kind of player.

I personally cannot stand positional defensemen and I think they should be hunted for sport.
 
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Freeptop said:
Are you sure about that?

Only 6 players on the Stanley Cup winning Panthers had over 40 points (one of whom was Tarasenko who was acquired at the deadline, so only 14 of his points were with the Panthers). And only 8 forwards had over 30 points. They were Reinhart (94), Tkachuk (88), Barkov (80), Verhaeghe (72), Tarasenko (55, though only 14 of them with the Panthers), Bennett (41), Rodrigues (39) and Lundell (35).

For the previous year, the Knights had 5 forwards (plus 2 defensemen) who hit over 40 points, and a total of... 8 forwards who had 30 or more points (the 8th had exactly 30).

And going back a year before that? The Avs were a powerhouse. They had 6 forwards (plus two defensemen) who scored over 40 points. And, er, well, 8 forwards who scored 30 or more points.

It's almost like even Stanley Cup winning teams can only fit so many players who can score over 30 points under the Cap or something.

Every single Cup Winning team of the last several years had at least one forward in the top nine who scored less than 30 points.

I'm not saying that Howe will produce 30 points in the NHL (or even make it at all), I'm just saying that if he did, that would be quite acceptable for a third-line forward. Even on a team with Cup aspirations.
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Right but those players played on their 3rd line? Lundell is their 3C and Erod/Verhaehe all play or played on the 3rd line for extended periods of time.
 
Darren McCord said:
But even so Bryan rust has been a good player for the pens.
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Jacob said:
Who was it everyone wanted instead of Goligoski.. Parshin?
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I remember everyone losing their minds after we picked Rust instead of Pulkkinen after he had a good WJC.

Then they lost it again when we passed on him again for Kuhn.

Randy Butternubs said:
I remember a "Shero y u no pick Pulkkinen" image floating around.

And it looks like it could've been both Rust and Kuhnhackl over Pulkkinen.
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lol. A minute apart. The outrage over Pulkkinen is funny in retrospect.
 
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Hindsight is always funny. Go back to the 2012 draft and look at the cheers from the crowd when Bettman announces the Staal trade. Crowd went nuts when he said Sutter, lol.

I remember wanting Grigorenko primarily with Forsberg being a suitable alternative, lol.

I distinctly remember in 2015 when we were still struggling saying "I wish we would have got Oshie over Kessel as I think Oshie would fit the team better" and when Kuhnhackl got the call "I don't think it's going to work out but I'm rooting for him."

Pulkkinen is another prime example of a AAAA player. Dude is basically Bemstrom. All-star AHL player, NHL bum.
 
HandshakeLine said:
Not a fan of the K Dubz
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Not a fan of his trades but so far I am a fan of his drafts and work on development so far. Ilyin, Kangas, Harding are all doing well for late picks and Brunicke and Pieniniemi look good for his higher picks. Howe seems hit of miss but was selected by team Canada which says something even if not much.

Wheeling is number 2 in the league.
WBS is tied for number 4.

Both of those teams have his fingerprints all over them

Wheelings top Players are all rookies he brought in
Matty De St. Phalle
Atley Calvert
Jack Beck

In WBS a bunch of players he brought in have been ok and playing much better recently.
Koivunen
Pono
McG
 
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I was thinking about this with all the talk about 3rd liners. If they are going to score around 30 points, and the 4th line probably half that, then half your forward group is generating little offense.

Half the forwards are there to play conservatively and play defense. If I’m a non regular NHL fan and I’m watching a game where half the time they aren’t even trying to do anything other than stand in the middle of the ice why would I watch?
 
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eXile3 said:
I was thinking about this with all the talk about 3rd liners. If they are going to score around 30 points, and the 4th line probably half that, then half your forward group is generating little offense.

Half the forwards are there to play conservatively and play defense. If I’m a non regular NHL fan and I’m watching a game where half the time they aren’t even trying to do anything other than stand in the middle of the ice why would I watch?
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I don't think this is a very accurate representation of what's going on.

I mean, just in terms of the game itself, you're pretty much always going to have really good players on the ice trying to make something happen. Sixty minutes a game. Using the Pens as an example, 49 minutes of that is spent at 5v5 - so the other 11 is mostly a numbers differential scenario where you know one side or the other has their best out. The other 49? Well, for the Pens, 26:30 of that will have one of Sid or Geno on the ice. Since both sides are usually chasing match ups, that probably means you're seeing the other side's stars out there trying to make something happen for a lot of it. You don't see conservative play for half of an NHL game (unless maybe compared to the 80s). You see aggressive play for almost all of it. You just mightn't like which team is doing it.

Also, the idea that low production = low attacking intent doesn't hold up. Eller's line generated almost the same number of shots as Malkin's line. The difference is Eller's line isn't as skillful so less go in. Incidentally, the Penguins are the 15th team in the league for s/60 at 5v5 with 27, which is where Malkin and Eller are, so this is all very league median. Very few lines in the league are intentionally set up in a way where it's known they won't show much attacking ambition and even those can provide offence (i.e. Blake Lizotte).

And the idea that 30 points, or being involved in a goal better than every 2.5 goals is little offence... compared to what? The stars of the game who get all the attacking time? Well, sure. But in what sport doesn't most production come from a few players? The game's attacking heyday in the 80s? Looking at the Pens' 86-87 roster, their 8th highest scoring was in line for 29.4 points. Other sports? I don't think if I'm saying anything surprising in saying that hockey is ridiculously action filled compared to most sports. The Pens are 13th with 3 goals a game. Nobody in the Premier League is touching 3 goals a game. 3 touchdowns a game would put you 9th in the NFL.

I would say the majority of hockey forwards are playing with more intent to score a goal in the next 10 seconds than the majority of players in any other sport in the majority of the time. And even the 4th line guys whose main job is to try and corral the other team's stars are usually aggressive when they get a chance.
 
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Top 6 also generates disproportionate amount of their offense on the PP. And tends to get more favorable face-offs too.

If you can get like 45-50 non-PP goals from your 3rd line while being at least competent defensively that's a win in my book, assuming they also take up a reasonable percentage of your cap. And 25-30 from your 4th line. That's 1 ES-or-SH goal-per-game from your bottom 6. Which should also be taking up maybe, like, 25% of your cap? Or less? Seems good.
 
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Peat said:
I don't think this is a very accurate representation of what's going on.

I mean, just in terms of the game itself, you're pretty much always going to have really good players on the ice trying to make something happen. Sixty minutes a game. Using the Pens as an example, 49 minutes of that is spent at 5v5 - so the other 11 is mostly a numbers differential scenario where you know one side or the other has their best out. The other 49? Well, for the Pens, 26:30 of that will have one of Sid or Geno on the ice. Since both sides are usually chasing match ups, that probably means you're seeing the other side's stars out there trying to make something happen for a lot of it. You don't see conservative play for half of an NHL game (unless maybe compared to the 80s). You see aggressive play for almost all of it. You just mightn't like which team is doing it.

Also, the idea that low production = low attacking intent doesn't hold up. Eller's line generated almost the same number of shots as Malkin's line. The difference is Eller's line isn't as skillful so less go in. Incidentally, the Penguins are the 15th team in the league for s/60 at 5v5 with 27, which is where Malkin and Eller are, so this is all very league median. Very few lines in the league are intentionally set up in a way where it's known they won't show much attacking ambition and even those can provide offence (i.e. Blake Lizotte).

And the idea that 30 points, or being involved in a goal better than every 2.5 goals is little offence... compared to what? The stars of the game who get all the attacking time? Well, sure. But in what sport doesn't most production come from a few players? The game's attacking heyday in the 80s? Looking at the Pens' 86-87 roster, their 8th highest scoring was in line for 29.4 points. Other sports? I don't think if I'm saying anything surprising in saying that hockey is ridiculously action filled compared to most sports. The Pens are 13th with 3 goals a game. Nobody in the Premier League is touching 3 goals a game. 3 touchdowns a game would put you 9th in the NFL.

I would say the majority of hockey forwards are playing with more intent to score a goal in the next 10 seconds than the majority of players in any other sport in the majority of the time. And even the 4th line guys whose main job is to try and corral the other team's stars are usually aggressive when they get a chance.
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Basketball. That’s actually why the thought came to me. Someone at work said they read an article that one of the reasons the NBA is more popular is because their superstars are on the court all the time and hockey is more a team sport.

I disagreed but it made me think. Anyways, I agree with your points. Just thinking out loud.
 
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