OT: 2024 Washington Commanders thread: change we can believe in!

[HTFN]

That’s hyperbole.

Gronk? YES
Welker? NO
Moss? YES (but 7 of his best 10 seasons were not in NE)
Edelman? NO
Amendola? LOL
Evans? Meh…. Doubt it.

Hyperbole my friend. Big time.

The minute you expand this discussion past HOF talent (and I’m not sure why that’s where the line was drawn in this thread) this stops being a conversation.

Welker was a 5 time pro-bowler and twice all-pro while in New England, Edelman is like second in postseason receiving yards all-time (and yeah, playing more games helps but nobody should get marked down for winning) and made a career of showing up with big catches. There were a few leaner years, but those guys aren’t bad players, a prime Wes Welker would easily be one of the top targets on this team.

In fact I’d say it’s arguable that the Patriots made use of their WR2/Slot receiver being much better than league average and letting Brady read matchup hell for the defense. Another pro-bowl caliber receiver would be invaluable for Kingsbury and Daniels to do the same, especially since Daniels can run.

So are they all Hall? No, but still very good and not JAGs. I think the only way I’d be reluctant to add is if they felt like McCaffery or someone can get there fairly quickly.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

That’s hyperbole.

Gronk? YES
Welker? NO
Moss? YES (but 7 of his best 10 seasons were not in NE) (irrelevant, did he have HOF talents to play with or not? Yes/no. Moss is the easiest answer yes.). The others were just great.
Edelman? NO
Amendola? LOL
Evans? Meh…. Doubt it.

Hyperbole my friend. Big time.

I didn’t say only on offense….and Evan’s will be a HOFer assuming his career doesn’t end prematurely. We’ll see. He was most certainly a top end/elite WR for Brady.

How many guys does JD currently have that can even possibly get close to a sniff of that kind of talent and production today, 1?

…and btw I never said those guys on that list were all HOFers, read carefully again, the HOF talent comment was after the list (which is obviously not all inclusive). If you took my follow up HOF comment to mean that list was all HOFer, apologies, that wasn’t my intention and I would have specified if so.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Yeah I mean who knows what a Billionaire is thinking. He may also be seeing things he doesn’t like, things that we have no view of.

What if he already knows Rodgers might be done after this year. Do you sit on your hands or try to alter the course of the ship?

Personally? I’m tanking if I’m them. The Rodgers gamble failed. Retaining the current losers has the benefits of losing while maintaining integrity. -which is what Harris wisely did with Rivera despite Rivera obviously sucking.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Personally? I’m tanking if I’m them. The Rodgers gamble failed. Retaining the current losers has the benefits of losing while maintaining integrity. -which is what Harris wisely did with Rivera despite Rivera obviously sucking.

So you would rather the ship go down in a flaming heap 5 games in and still a chance to turn it around?

Yeah successful Billionaire businessmen don’t often think like that IMO. They have way too much talent to concede and tank today.

 

[Roric]

Looks like maye is gonna be starting sooner than expected

 

[ynotcaps]

I didn’t say only on offense….and Evan’s will be a HOFer assuming his career doesn’t end prematurely. We’ll see. He was most certainly a top end/elite WR for Brady.

How many guys does JD currently have that can even possibly get close to a sniff of that kind of talent and production today, 1?

Yeah, the way to make a shockingly good rookie better is to give him more help. Higgins has had some injury concerns and hasn't produced #1 WR numbers -- but when you share the field w J Chase, you're not gonna be the #1, period.

That's why the proposed price is a 3rd and potentially a another third.

Like I said, I do it. If AP doesn't, OK, he certainly knows better than I. (Unlike the last 35 GMs we had under Satan.)

Looks like maye is gonna be starting sooner than expected

Yeah. He's walking into a shit situation. That line is decimated and their weapons are "meh" at best.
I was never a Maye guy, but it's going to be tough to get a fair read for a while.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Yeah, the way to make a shockingly good rookie better is to give him more help. Higgins has had some injury concerns and hasn't produced #1 WR numbers -- but when you share the field w J Chase, you're not gonna be the #1, period.

That's why the proposed price is a 3rd and potentially a second.

Like I said, I do it. If AP doesn't, OK, he certainly knows better than I. (Unlike the last 35 GMs we had under Satan.)

This is where I’m at. You have to think they’re considering options. Like damn, you can’t really expect him to do much more than make the playoffs, but still….if it’s to acquire a guy you see as being a key contributor for a few more years….I say go for it.

 

[Jags]

Yeah, the way to make a shockingly good rookie better is to give him more help.

Yes, and the absolute best thing they can do for him is shore up the defense so he doesn't have to score 40 a game to win. He could absolutely use a receiving upgrade, and if we can give up something easy to rent one for this season, great. But the 32-year-olds making league-best money and the oft-injured guys that want $25m a year? No thanks.

The upgrades they made this year are all performing, so I'd like them to stay the course. @g00n is right in his take on the NE comparison. Those guys had greatness is them that was brought out by a top QB playing behind a top O line, all working together to build a thing that none of them wanted to leave. Lots of Pats left money on the table to stay with a great team, and you see some of the stars in KC doing the same now while management embraces turnover in the best ways possible.

That's what I'm pretty sure @g00n is talking about -- building an organization like that, which you don't do by making expensive impulse buys at the checkout counter. You have to spread the money around. Our offense is working pretty great right now. Our D is the squeaky wheel.

Shrewd management FTW. Screaming "Me want! Me want! Me want!" every time a shiny trade target or FA stud becomes available is playing checkers when you should be playing chess.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Assuming an expensive impulse buy Is Snyder-think, not AP. Time to stop thinking the old ways. If he were to pull the trigger, I’m not poo pooing it.

 

[g00n]

Yeah but it doesn’t. It’s NYC.


Moss was never a project. Just FYI. Like, ever

Also — guys like Mahomes, Brady, Allen, Manning, etc (past and current) made WR’s better -/ but they also have some great WR’s.

There’s no chicken/egg thing here.

That said, JD5 has McLaurin and…… youth. Is McLaurin the same as Brady/Manning/Mahomes/Allen etc’s top guys? Prob not, when you include TE’s (Altho the RB’s help a LOT).

Moss had a bad rep for a few years and was one of the first to go through the "maybe bb can tame him" thing.

Of course more talent is good but there's a price.

 

[ynotcaps]

Yes, and the absolute best thing they can do for him is shore up the defense so he doesn't have to score 40 a game to win. He could absolutely use a receiving upgrade, and if we can give up something easy to rent one for this season, great. But the 32-year-olds making league-best money and the oft-injured guys that want $25m a year? No thanks.

The upgrades they made this year are all performing, so I'd like them to stay the course. @g00n is right in his take on the NE comparison. Those guys had greatness is them that was brought out by a top QB playing behind a top O line, all working together to build a thing that none of them wanted to leave. Lots of Pats left money on the table to stay with a great team, and you see some of the stars in KC doing the same now while management embraces turnover in the best ways possible.

That's what I'm pretty sure @g00n is talking about -- building an organization like that, which you don't do by making expensive impulse buys at the checkout counter. You have to spread the money around. Our offense is working pretty great right now. Our D is the squeaky wheel.

Shrewd management FTW. Screaming "Me want! Me want! Me want!" every time a shiny trade target or FA stud becomes available is playing checkers when you should be playing chess.

Wow, didnt realize saying that id give up 1, maybe 2 3rds for a legittarget equates to crying "me want" for every trade target out there.

Simply saying I like the idea of adding the exact type of weapon so many of us have been asking for since before the draft.

I'm in favor of the FO being more aggressive this year than I expected because it looks like we have a contender for the playoffs at least. yes, they can and should address defensive holes. But doing so is not mutually exclusive of adding weapons.

I think we should also be a bit more realistic about the fact that NE was already a DB contender before Brady took the field, and before Mahomes lost Tyreke Hill, he HAD Tyreke Hill, along with Kelce. Both teams also were/are led by lock 1st ballot HOF coaches. I lo e where our team is headed, but I'm not gonna pretend that we're in position to follow their blueprint just yet.

 

[HTFN]

Moss had a bad rep for a few years and was one of the first to go through the "maybe bb can tame him" thing.

Of course more talent is good but there's a price.

Doesn’t that almost make him the poster child for the other argument? They went out and got him because they needed/wanted the target so bad they rolled the dice on the person (at this point the specific concern is not super important). If I remember correctly they were pretty weak at WR at the time, I had thought they already had Welker but it turns out he and Moss both come in 2007. The top receiver in 2006 was Reche Caldwell, who played the next season in Washington and then never again.... but they still went 12-4 so it's not like it wasn't working.

That all sounds to me like they recognized they couldn’t just bank on churning out system receivers and take advantage of their stellar QB play, so they facilitated change with a semi-high risk/reward factor.

 

[kicksavedave]

Tom Brady won three super bowls in four years with WRs named Deion Branch, Troy Brown, and David Patten, and TEs Christian Fauria and Daniel Graham.

Jayden Daniels doesn't need help anywhere near as much as the defense does.

 

[Ridley Simon]

The minute you expand this discussion past HOF talent (and I’m not sure why that’s where the line was drawn in this thread) this stops being a conversation.

Welker was a 5 time pro-bowler and twice all-pro while in New England, Edelman is like second in postseason receiving yards all-time (and yeah, playing more games helps but nobody should get marked down for winning) and made a career of showing up with big catches. There were a few leaner years, but those guys aren’t bad players, a prime Wes Welker would easily be one of the top targets on this team.

In fact I’d say it’s arguable that the Patriots made use of their WR2/Slot receiver being much better than league average and letting Brady read matchup hell for the defense. Another pro-bowl caliber receiver would be invaluable for Kingsbury and Daniels to do the same, especially since Daniels can run.

So are they all Hall? No, but still very good and not JAGs. I think the only way I’d be reluctant to add is if they felt like McCaffery or someone can get there fairly quickly.

I think the QB makes the player. Simply put.

Brady made those guys (save Gronk and Moss), not the other way around?

True for many an HOF QB. IMO.

Does that mean I don’t think the Skin should add another top WR? NO, they should. But I can see why they wouldn’t do it.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Yeah, the way to make a shockingly good rookie better is to give him more help. Higgins has had some injury concerns and hasn't produced #1 WR numbers -- but when you share the field w J Chase, you're not gonna be the #1, period.

That's why the proposed price is a 3rd and potentially a another third.

Like I said, I do it. If AP doesn't, OK, he certainly knows better than I. (Unlike the last 35 GMs we had under Satan.)

Yeah. He's walking into a shit situation. That line is decimated and their weapons are "meh" at best.
I was never a Maye guy, but it's going to be tough to get a fair read for a while.

I’d be thrilled w Higgins for a couple of 3rds. To be clear.

Maye is not Daniels. Very different levels of readiness.

Even before the season, that was obvious.

Now? Whoa. That’s all I have to say.

 

[Bananas]

Not to mention these end of the roster types are absolutely gelling and playing their asses off for each other rn. Chemistry is a funny thing and so is “buy-in”. The Mandos have it in spades rn and one way to spoil it on the fly is to bring in multimillionaires with personal agendas that go deeper than team.

I think they should aggressively add talent, but with how they’re playing they can easily wait until they have further solidified the culture shift that appears well underway.

It’s a great spot to be in as there is no pressure to make a move unless something rock solid falls into their laps.

 

[RedRocking]

Yeah, the way to make a shockingly good rookie better is to give him more help. Higgins has had some injury concerns and hasn't produced #1 WR numbers -- but when you share the field w J Chase, you're not gonna be the #1, period.

That's why the proposed price is a 3rd and potentially a another third.

Like I said, I do it. If AP doesn't, OK, he certainly knows better than I. (Unlike the last 35 GMs we had under Satan.)

I feel like we’re in a great spot where we can be picky. Someone like Davante Adams would be a hard no for me given his rep and age. But assuming Jayden will continue elevating average WRs (like a Brady) is WAY premature. It’s only 5 games, against some pretty suspect secondaries.

JD is still a kid and needs receiving help to reach his full potential. Teams are going to adjust to what KK is doing, and JD’s not going to have guys wide open all the time. We need more guys than just Terry that can go up and get a 50/50 ball. Or be a big target in the RZ. And generally, we could use more explosive YAC threats.

Tee Higgins is the right age (25), and his size and athleticism checks all those boxes. Not sure how injury prone he is except for last year (12 GP). Prior 3 seasons he played 16, 14, and 16 and all 900+ yd seasons. Someone in this thread said he wants $20M/year? That’s still less than Terry, and not unreasonable given his production.

Higgins might ultimately be better as a FA target this offseason, assuming Cincy lets him walk. But I’d be cool with a 3rd+ if AP wants to pull the trigger now.

 

[trick9]

I feel like we’re in a great spot where we can be picky. Someone like Davante Adams would be a hard no for me given his rep and age. But assuming Jayden will continue elevating average WRs (like a Brady) is WAY premature. It’s only 5 games, against some pretty suspect secondaries.

JD is still a kid and needs receiving help to reach his full potential. Teams are going to adjust to what KK is doing, and JD’s not going to have guys wide open all the time. We need more guys than just Terry that can go up and get a 50/50 ball. Or be a big target in the RZ. And generally, we could use more explosive YAC threats.

Tee Higgins is the right age (25), and his size and athleticism checks all those boxes. Not sure how injury prone he is except for last year (12 GP). Prior 3 seasons he played 16, 14, and 16 and all 900+ yd seasons. Someone in this thread said he wants $20M/year? That’s still less than Terry, and not unreasonable given his production.

Higgins might ultimately be better as a FA target this offseason, assuming Cincy lets him walk. But I’d be cool with a 3rd+ if AP wants to pull the trigger now.

This and last season he has played 15 of Bengals 22 games. That's ~68%, but there were few times in which he also left the game mid-way last season because of injury.

This is from his fantasy profile:

Which wide receivers are most likely to suffer an injury in 2024?

1. Tee Higgins, Cincinnati Bengals (89 percent):
Those who have drafted Tee Higgins in fantasy football are well aware of the frustration surrounding him and his knack of ending up on the injury report. The lack of clarity regarding his health has likely cost people matchups. Draft Sharks is projecting more of the same in 2024, ranking him as the wide receiver with the biggest injury risk this year.

 

[Jags]

Wow, didnt realize saying that id give up 1, maybe 2 3rds for a legittarget equates to crying "me want" for every trade target out there.

Fair enough, but I'm not just talking about you. Adams was the big story a few days ago and a few people here were all for it. Today it's Higgins and again no shortage of takers. We haven't had a good football team in AGES. You're standing in the grocery store while you're starving.

The guy might be a free agent in just a few short months. What deficiency are you seeing in our offense that we need to give up multiple picks that could yield very good, cost controlled players to get this guy today instead of a little while later?

If I remember correctly they were pretty weak at WR at the time

Yes, and they went and got an all-time great and won nothing with him. Not sure that's an example I want to follow.

I’d be thrilled w Higgins for a couple of 3rds.

I'd take another Coleman and McCaffrey AND sign Higgins (or a reasonable facsimile) in free agency. What's the rush? Why not wait a minute and have all three?

JD’s not going to have guys wide open all the time.

He doesn't have guys open all the time, and when it does happen it's just as often our play designs/calls, the threat of our running game, and JD's smarts and legs that are opening things up.

Higgins might ultimately be better as a FA target this offseason

I'm into it if the price is right. In free agency for a price we can really afford? I'm in. Right now for two 3rds that'll also give us little "walk away" freedom in contract negotiations? Nope. Higgins or no Higgins, we'll likely have our pick of FAs if we pump the brakes.

 

[HTFN]

Yes, and they went and got an all-time great and won nothing with him. Not sure that's an example I want to follow.

If I asked you right now if you'd be happy with a 16-0 season what would you say? How about a Super Bowl appearance?

"Won nothing", f*** out of here, they were still conference champions. How long has it been since one of those?

How did 5 games make you picky about following the example of the 2007 Patriots?

 

[Jags]

"Won nothing", f*** out of here, they were still conference champions.

They did the splashy thing and didn't get what they wanted. Won a few titles without doing the splashy thing.

They got Moss to help get them back to the mountain top and they didn't get there. End of story. The part of that story that I DO want to emulate is the bit where the organization is so attractive to every player in the league that the best wideout in the league will sign with you for a song because he expects to win titles. Not going to get there trading away multiple valuable picks to rent a guy you can get for nothing. You accumulate assets instead, draft smart, and build a complete team.

You know, exactly like the Patriots did for all those years.

I'm not saying Moss was a bad acquisition. I'm saying it's not the best example in the discussion we're having to bring up a guy that didn't win a title with a team that couldn't stop winning titles without him.

We're Caps fans, so used to celebrating winning shit that doesn't matter that we make fun of ourselves for it. Winning the actual Cup felt better, didn't it? We didn't do it with a splashy roster. We did it when we stopped white-knuckling it and built smart and deep on both sides of the ice.

 

[g00n]

Doesn’t that almost make him the poster child for the other argument? They went out and got him because they needed/wanted the target so bad they rolled the dice on the person (at this point the specific concern is not super important). If I remember correctly they were pretty weak at WR at the time, I had thought they already had Welker but it turns out he and Moss both come in 2007. The top receiver in 2006 was Reche Caldwell, who played the next season in Washington and then never again.... but they still went 12-4 so it's not like it wasn't working.

That all sounds to me like they recognized they couldn’t just bank on churning out system receivers and take advantage of their stellar QB play, so they facilitated change with a semi-high risk/reward factor.

If they had our current WR corps I don't know if they make those moves.

 

[HTFN]

They did the splashy thing and didn't get what they wanted. Won a few titles without doing the splashy thing.

They got Moss to help get them back to the mountain top and they didn't get there. End of story. The part of that story that I DO want to emulate is the bit where the organization is so attractive to every player in the league that the best wideout in the league will sign with you for a song because he expects to win titles. Not going to get there trading away multiple valuable picks to rent a guy you can get for nothing. You accumulate assets instead, draft smart, and build a complete team.

You know, exactly like the Patriots did for all those years.

I'm not saying Moss was a bad acquisition. I'm saying it's not the best example in the discussion we're having to bring up a guy that didn't win a title with a team that couldn't stop winning titles without him.

We're Caps fans, so used to celebrating winning shit that doesn't matter that we make fun of ourselves for it. Winning the actual Cup felt better, didn't it? We didn't do it with a splashy roster. We did it when we stopped white-knuckling it and built smart and deep on both sides of the ice.

All of this implies that there's something inherently "not smart" in signing/acquiring another threatening receiver because the 16-0 team didn't win the Super Bowl. Shake your head. The Commanders should be desperate for seasons approaching that.

Like... you are focusing way hard on the wrong details of this and getting into the minutia of what happened instead of the broader concepts of team building. This team shouldn't even be dreaming of titles right now, so you can stow all that because they still need to take massive steps to get there. Moss is specifically being talked about (now, deflecting from a much broader concept) because of "character concerns" and how they weighed against talent. If you have a target with marginal concerns but the talent and price is there, you take it. How is that even a statement we're arguing about?

Right now they have a QB showing signs of being something, but the team needs depth weapons. That's... the Caps, especially in the early 2010's. You're worried about a Shattenkirk, but wasn't TJ Oshie a struggling borderline "star" that found a new role and flourished in another organization?

How are we dissecting Randy Moss anyway? This whole thing is about whether the Patriots were confident being a WR factory with systems guys and they clearly weren't, even with an all time great coach, high quality OL, and likely GOAT QB.

 

[g00n]

They did the splashy thing and didn't get what they wanted. Won a few titles without doing the splashy thing.

They got Moss to help get them back to the mountain top and they didn't get there. End of story. The part of that story that I DO want to emulate is the bit where the organization is so attractive to every player in the league that the best wideout in the league will sign with you for a song because he expects to win titles. Not going to get there trading away multiple valuable picks to rent a guy you can get for nothing. You accumulate assets instead, draft smart, and build a complete team.

You know, exactly like the Patriots did for all those years.

I'm not saying Moss was a bad acquisition. I'm saying it's not the best example in the discussion we're having to bring up a guy that didn't win a title with a team that couldn't stop winning titles without him.

We're Caps fans, so used to celebrating winning shit that doesn't matter that we make fun of ourselves for it. Winning the actual Cup felt better, didn't it? We didn't do it with a splashy roster. We did it when we stopped white-knuckling it and built smart and deep on both sides of the ice.

Agree the "NE model" is the way to go here because we just got a potential superstar dumped in our lap, and he's someone who makes others around him better, which is where the Brady comparison should mostly be focused. Done and done on that.

The only concern is injuries. If TM17 goes down then Noah Brown is probably your WR1 drawing the other side's shutdown guy. That's not ideal.

So yeah, they could still use a top quality WR2 as before when it comes to depth, but they're not the same franchise that had to add a premium to all offers in order to lure anyone to play for Snyder and whatever dysfunctional puppet regime he imposed. And given the new culture and opportunity to build a "NE model" where guys will "pay to play" here, they have to be smart about it.

Throwing any kind of overpay asset at an injury prone WR would be risky in that sense. If Higgins is below market then take the chance. If not then it's probably bad asset management.

 

[HTFN]

If they had our current WR corps I don't know if they make those moves.

Outside of Terry... why not? I don't think they need a "Moss" for the sake of this discussion (although obviously if someone that good was really on the market I think this whole board would be a little itchy) but I thought the discussion here was about adding another quality weapon like a Higgins or other, just, like... better guy?

Look, I hate the Patriots and doing this but Wes Welker is easily better than anyone on roster not named Terry McLaurin even as a Dolphin before going to New England. Then a great QB and gameplan saw him crack 1,000 yards and become a staple.... I don't know how this conversation became "flashy acquisition" vs. "stay the course" but it should be abundantly clear that this team would be better with two bonafide threats to win routes that don't always have to be schemed on most downs.

New England's depth WRs in 2006 are definitely worse than the 2023 Commanders, both because they sucked and because they weren't buffered by another Dotson/Samuel level talent, but here's the kicker: as a result they had to chew clock and run to win, had two RBs with 750+ yards, and the number 2 defense in points allowed. Despite his arm talent Brady was relegated to a top-tier game manager, an ineffective use of his overall talent. In 2007, on top of adding the 4 wins, Brady and the Patriots added about 1,300 passing yards, only lost about 100 rushing on the year, and went from 24 to 36 points per game.... Washington doesn't have a lot of those luxuries yet but one thing they can do is take a moderate risk to expand the offense (which has suited them well) and see how it works.

The overall point here is that they knew they could win other ways, but they had a supercharged QB and went out and got him weapons to allow him to play his best game. They learned lessons and refined over time, sure, but the one thing that could almost always be said about the Patriots model is that they were open to adapting to their strengths and weaknesses from season to season and leaning into their strongest identity to win games, and that's what this would be just as they leaned into Brady.