OT: 2024 Washington Commanders thread: change we can believe in!

kicksavedave

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Can an NFL draftnik explain to me in baby terms why these are deal breakers?

I'm a very casual fan but I watched a decent amount of last season because I had a lot of Sundays off for a while, and in that season we saw hyped-as-complete QB Bryce Young struggle hard with no answer to if he'll adapt. Meanwhile despite a thicker prototypical running quarterback's frame Anthony Richardson got himself knocked the f*** out, then hurt again later.

Does having a more powerful running frame matter if you use it to get yourself in trouble? Is Mahomes a prototypical running QB or just a guy who sees how and when to tuck it, and QB's just need to learn across the board that sliding is a talent if you aren't Lamar Jackson/Michael Vick good at schoolyard ball? Which prospect can do that and how much does it matter to you? Drew Brees was hardly the QB you'd draw up in a lab, didn't stop him from being absolutely prolific. Who's got "it"?

Which guy throws the passes you want to see? Which has issues you can fix and what do those perfect versions look like? Like... we all watch sports so I get when a guy has a flaw that just isn't fixable but for all these QBs to float around the 1-2-3 slot like this tells me that it's not as simple as strengths and weaknesses and how they profile vs others who may or may not have "it". Somebody down the line is going to be kicking themselves and the question seems to be who, so what's the biggest "deal breaker" among the cons of these guys?

Unfortunately, there is absolutely no sure fire way of determining which QBs will make it big in the NFL and which will be busts. It has almost nothing to do with their physical talent and nothing to do with their production. The only real thing one can point to is "will this QB be able to learn to process the NFL speed of the game faster than it was in college". There's no real indication of who can "improve" their processing and who can't. If there was, teams would already be all over it. Kurt Warner, who may be the greatest undrafted QB in NFL history, says its simple: Every one of the prospects will need to improve to make it in the NFL. Predicting who can improve and who can't, is essentially impossible.

Every single guy in the draft has the potential to be either Tom Brady, or Jamarcus Russell. Anyone suggesting someone is a sure thing, is fooling themselves.

I suppose there's a little higher upside going with the physically talented players, but they will still need to improve their processing to achieve their upside. Then there's Brock Purdy or Tom Brady who are physically nothing special at all, but could process the NFL game at a high level. But they both slipped in the draft to the back end, as did Kurt Warner who slipped all the way through.

Adding to the answer, technique flaws can always be fixed, such as footwork. But processing limits, the ability to operate under increased pressure, is typically a "you have it or you don't" skill. It can develop a little, but it has to develop a LOT from college to the pro's. So the only real deal breaker, is the one that cannot be seen or predicted.
 

HTFN

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Unfortunately, there is absolutely no sure fire way of determining which QBs will make it big in the NFL and which will be busts. It has almost nothing to do with their physical talent and nothing to do with their production. The only real thing one can point to is "will this QB be able to learn to process the NFL speed of the game faster than it was in college". There's no real indication of who can "improve" their processing and who can't. If there was, teams would already be all over it. Kurt Warner, who may be the greatest undrafted QB in NFL history, says its simple: Every one of the prospects will need to improve to make it in the NFL. Predicting who can improve and who can't, is essentially impossible.

Every single guy in the draft has the potential to be either Tom Brady, or Jamarcus Russell. Anyone suggesting someone is a sure thing, is fooling themselves.

I suppose there's a little higher upside going with the physically talented players, but they will still need to improve their processing to achieve their upside. Then there's Brock Purdy or Tom Brady who are physically nothing special at all, but could process the NFL game at a high level. But they both slipped in the draft to the back end, as did Kurt Warner who slipped all the way through.

Adding to the answer, technique flaws can always be fixed, such as footwork. But processing limits, the ability to operate under increased pressure, is typically a "you have it or you don't" skill. It can develop a little, but it has to develop a LOT from college to the pro's. So the only real deal breaker, is the one that cannot be seen or predicted.
And that's been my impression too, which has left me wondering why anybody's worried about much of anything else. Like... it's shuffling deck chairs, if they've watched all the tape and don't have a gut feeling that there's just "a guy" there might not be one, or he might reveal himself later and everyone will pretend like it was obvious when it really wasn't.

It seems way more about who's just got "it" than any of their tools or flaws, so yeah, it's a follow your heart decision and just cross your fingers. Feels like that's almost why some of the real good ones come so late, because you can justify the swing a little more.

Seems like up here at the top you get almost too locked in to details that will ultimately just be notes on a defensive scouting report and attacked no matter what.
 

kicksavedave

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And that's been my impression too, which has left me wondering why anybody's worried about much of anything else. Like... it's shuffling deck chairs, if they've watched all the tape and don't have a gut feeling that there's just "a guy" there might not be one, or he might reveal himself later and everyone will pretend like it was obvious when it really wasn't.

It seems way more about who's just got "it" than any of their tools or flaws, so yeah, it's a follow your heart decision and just cross your fingers. Feels like that's almost why some of the real good ones come so late, because you can justify the swing a little more.

Seems like up here at the top you get almost too locked in to details that will ultimately just be notes on a defensive scouting report and attacked no matter what.
I think teams can and do look at prospects current processing ability, but in many cases its not all that easy to read into their minds while look at film "what did you see here"? "Why did you make that throw instead of going here"? But ultimately, even for players who are good at processing and progressions, they still need to improve to be good NFL QBs. Its why some QBs from pure one read offenses can still prosper in the NFL (they have the "It"), and why QBs who come from more pro style offenses still fail in the NFL.

Ultimately you're correct- Its a follow your heart and bet on potential, because everything that can be measured is ultimately meaningless in this bet. Also why some teams just seem to always win at it (Packers, 49rs, Eagles, etc), and others just seem to always lose at it (Redskins, WFT, Commanders).
 
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usiel

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In another, the test seeks to find out how many objects an athlete can keep track of at the same time. In another, there are 22 figures on the screen and the athlete must locate a specific one as quickly as possible. The object might be a red triangle embedded in other shapes that are also red.

“We’re talking about things they have to perceive on the screen within 16/1,000th of a second, which is essentially subliminal and which scientific literature says you shouldn’t be able to process,” Ally said. “And I’ll be honest with you, we’re seeing pro baseball players see something way faster than 16 milliseconds, which has never been reported in literature, all the way to some athletes who may take 150 milliseconds. So our eyes may see the same thing. But for some, it takes longer to process than others.”
He couldn’t give out Purdy’s exact score because it’s privileged information but said it was in the “mid 90s.” That’s about where Brees, the former Saints quarterback famous for lightning-fast decision-making, scored and where two of the top passers in the league now, the Chiefs’ Patrick Mahomes and the Bills’ Josh Allen, also landed. The Bengals’ Joe Burrow took the test while at LSU and agreed to allow S2 to disclose the information.

Of course he did — he scored in the 97th percentile.

“We consider anything above the 80th percentile to be elite,” Ally said.
 

ynotcaps

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And that's been my impression too, which has left me wondering why anybody's worried about much of anything else. Like... it's shuffling deck chairs, if they've watched all the tape and don't have a gut feeling that there's just "a guy" there might not be one, or he might reveal himself later and everyone will pretend like it was obvious when it really wasn't.

It seems way more about who's just got "it" than any of their tools or flaws, so yeah, it's a follow your heart decision and just cross your fingers. Feels like that's almost why some of the real good ones come so late, because you can justify the swing a little more.

Seems like up here at the top you get almost too locked in to details that will ultimately just be notes on a defensive scouting report and attacked no matter what.
Yeah, that's definitely the dilemma. If you find a Brady, Purdy, or Warner, you're an absolute hero, because you found something nobody else saw -- and you got lucky, too, because the guy was still there after 5 or 6 passes on him, or never pulling the draft trigger in the place. But the point is, those guys are all reward, no risk.

The problem at the top -- and this is where we fans get salty and intense -- is that the reward could be huge. But in reality, the risk is usually the dominant factor, because most of these guys don't turn into the QB we all imagine they will be. You might get an Andrew Luck or a Joe Burrow or a guy who becomes what we expect -- or at least imagine -- him to be right away. But far more often those guys turn into Baker Mayfield or Kyler Murray or Alex Smith or Jared Goff -- guys that are good but not great, and who sometimes take a while to even get to good. And then there's always the chance your guy is going to turn into Jamarcus Russell or Akili Smith or Ryan Leaf.

There's SO effing much invested in a top pick when a choice among top QBs is available to a franchise in need of that spot that it permeates everything.

But the reality is that at least one of Penix, McCarthy, Nix -- and maybe even someone else (Rattler?) -- is probably going to end up having a better career than at least one of Caleb, Jaden or Drake. And while some (Here's looking at you, Rids) have suggested trading back for one, nobody in their right mind anywhere -- including the "knowledgeable QB scouts" -- are suggesting that any of that latter group should be drafted before former the group.
 
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Roric

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Check this out. Most of the clips in this vid are from the "behind the QB" perspective. I have not seen this angle on a lot of these plays



Pretty cool/interesting. You get to see what the QB sees. I’d like to see the same type of vid for maye and williams
 

usiel

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Check this out. Most of the clips in this vid are from the "behind the QB" perspective. I have not seen this angle on a lot of these plays



Pretty cool/interesting. You get to see what the QB sees. I’d like to see the same type of vid for maye and williams

In general love the behind the QB shots it is definitely the best.
 

ynotcaps

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Check this out. Most of the clips in this vid are from the "behind the QB" perspective. I have not seen this angle on a lot of these plays



Pretty cool/interesting. You get to see what the QB sees. I’d like to see the same type of vid for maye and williams

That's one of the best things about the Chase Daniel breakdowns -- he shows each play from every angle, including from behind the QB. @kicksavedave posted JD and DM above, but I think he's done them on all the top 5 or 6 guys.
 

ynotcaps

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Mickey Loomis had an all-time great draft in 2017, but ever since, he's GM'ed like he has a brain tumor. He throws picks away on dumb trades up the draft and, when he's in a perpetual state of salary cap hell that requires massive Cap Jenga every offseason, throws $13M guaranteed on a guy he knows needs neck surgery when nobody else was seriously barking up that tree.

It's easy for a guy to "bet on himself" when the winnings are already placed in his account.
 

kicksavedave

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I'll admit, I wanted BJ, I thought DQ would be just another reread. I was wrong. BJ now appears to be emotionally unprepared to lead, while DQ seems like a clear leader of men that commands (pardon the pun) respect and appreciation from the people he works with. No way in hell Ben Johnson puts together this off season recruiting effort like DQ has. Both players and coaching staff.

This will be a different team in every meaningful way.
 

Neil Racki

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I dont have any disdain for Ben Johnson.

Hes 37 or 38 ... probably smart of him to take the mature decision and decide hes not ready to be a leader of men and an entire organization
 

Jags

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Mickey Loomis had an all-time great draft in 2017, but ever since, he's GM'ed like he has a brain tumor. He throws picks away on dumb trades up the draft and, when he's in a perpetual state of salary cap hell that requires massive Cap Jenga every offseason, throws $13M guaranteed on a guy he knows needs neck surgery when nobody else was seriously barking up that tree.

Yeah, the initial Twitter report really screwed up his contract report. It's NOT fully guaranteed at all. 450K of it is a "workout bonus" and 8 million of it is earned in per-game bonuses. So 65% of the contract relies on him actually performing and participating in games.

They knew about the neck ahead of time, and the contract is pretty shrewd if you think he can make it back and/or that the neck was maybe more what's been hampering him and he could possibly come all the way back... $5mil of cap space on a risk like that isn't bad.
 
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bacchist

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Check this out. Most of the clips in this vid are from the "behind the QB" perspective. I have not seen this angle on a lot of these plays



Pretty cool/interesting. You get to see what the QB sees. I’d like to see the same type of vid for maye and williams

I'd like to see it for them, and then for Howell.
 

kicksavedave

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Yeah, the initial Twitter report really screwed up his contract report. It's NOT fully guaranteed at all. 450K of it is a "workout bonus" and 8 million of it is earned in per-game bonuses. So 65% of the contract relies on him actually performing and participating in games.

They knew about the neck ahead of time, and the contract is pretty shrewd if you think he can make it back and/or that the neck was maybe more what's been hampering him and he could possibly come all the way back... $5mil of cap space on a risk like that isn't bad.

Yep, if they cut him, he gets the whole contract. If he's on the roster but doesn't play, he doesn't get the big "per game" bonuses that add up to the $14M. If he plays all 17 games he'll get $14M. I put those odds and less than dick.

I'd like to see it for them, and then for Howell.

I found some actual footage behind the QB for Sam Howell.

200w.gif
 

ynotcaps

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Yeah, the initial Twitter report really screwed up his contract report. It's NOT fully guaranteed at all. 450K of it is a "workout bonus" and 8 million of it is earned in per-game bonuses. So 65% of the contract relies on him actually performing and participating in games.

They knew about the neck ahead of time, and the contract is pretty shrewd if you think he can make it back and/or that the neck was maybe more what's been hampering him and he could possibly come all the way back... $5mil of cap space on a risk like that isn't bad.
Thanks for the clarification. Makes me feel a little better from the Saints-fan side. (Loomis still pisses me off.)
 

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