Player Discussion: 2024 Vezina Winner Connor Hellebuyck

[Jets4Life]

-You keep saying I hate Helley. Like a lot. "Hatred". I think he's overrated to a comical degree and a playoff choke artist
-You claim to have read all my helley posts then in the same post say you don't know why I "hate him". Again, I dont hate him, but, I'm pretty consistent in pointing out 2018's choke job as why I dislike him. The 2018 Jets should have had a ticket punched to the Stanley Cup but we ran into a hot MAF and Helley was hot garbage. This is probably the 10th time I've posted this, maybe bookmark this page under the "White Out" tab of your bookmarks

It's not just me. Others have called you out on the outright contempt for Hellebuyck, going back years. In fact, during his Vezina Trophy season, you went on for days about him, going as far as to say you would prefer Binnington, at times. I can understand you being overly critical at certain times, but when he was ranked #1 in nearly all goaltending categories in the NHL?

As for 2018, Hellebuyck played exceptionally well. This is the reality of the situation. You are the only one I have ever come across that has this delusional idea about Hellebuyck "choking" in the 2018 playoffs, and costing the Jets a Stanley Cup. That is beyond ridiculous. However, at least you're being honest, so I guess I will give credit where credit is due.

In any case, you got your wish. Hellebuyck will no longer be a Jets player. May as well pop open any bottles of champagne you have.

 

[White Out 902]

It's not just me. Others have called you out on the outright contempt for Hellebuyck, going back years. In fact, during his Vezina Trophy season, you went on for days about him, going as far as to say you would prefer Binnington, at times. I can understand you being overly critical at certain times, but when he was ranked #1 in nearly all goaltending categories in the NHL?

As for 2018, Hellebuyck played exceptionally well. This is the reality of the situation. You are the only one I have ever come across that has this delusional idea about Hellebuyck "choking" in the 2018 playoffs, and costing the Jets a Stanley Cup. That is beyond ridiculous.

In any case, you got your wish. Hellebuyck will no longer be a Jets player. May as well pop open any bottles of champagne you have.

I'm not going to argue hypotheticals or you overstating your recollection of what you think my positions are or were.

As far as 2018 series vs Vegas, is there anyone who would be so foolish to think that goaltending wasn't the difference? I mean, bravo if you want to take that incredible and indefensible argument on.

 

[White Out 902]

I really have to firm up that response because it's actually kind of shocking the more I think about it.

I don't know what the save percentage was for him for the series against Vegas, but his entire playoffs was .913. Now, that's a pretty okay number, but considering how bad he was against Vegas, that means he was probably something like 900 or below 900 for the series. Marc-Andre Fleury was lights out and absolutely stole the series. The skaters for the Jets were far better than Vegas. I don't know if Connor puts up really good numbers if we beat them, but I know we had no chance with the kinds of goals he was giving up and when he was giving them up. We would work our asses off to tie the game and score on Fleury, and he would let in a weak shot. So not only was he giving up way too many goals, but he was also letting in goals at terrible times. I'm not even sure if he was that spectacular in 2018 post season to begin with; Minnesota was hot garbage, and Nashville had a goaltender meltdown in game 7. That said, I'll give him credit; he certainly was reliable enough in the Nashville series that I didn't feel threatened whenever they had the puck. In the Vegas series, by the time we got into game three and four, anytime Vegas put towards our nets, I had the Spidey tingling that Pavelec used to give me.

Saying that Helley wasn't the issue in the vegas series of 2018 tells me you're either an unserious person or you just want to pick a fight

 

[Jets4Life]

As far as 2018 series vs Vegas, is there anyone who would be so foolish to think that goaltending wasn't the difference? I mean, bravo if you want to take that incredible and indefensible argument on.

I can understand one being disappointed in the Conference Finals series vs Vegas. However, you have said repeatedly that Hellebuyck was "garbage" and choked in the 2018 playoffs, when in reality, one Vezina Trophy goalie played better than another Vezina Trophy goalie. In fact, Fleury would have easily won the Conn Smythe Trophy, had Vegas defeated the Capitals.

It's also convenient to ignore the fact that Helle was the main reason we beat out the Presidents trophy winners, with their 2017-18 Vezina Trophy goalie the previous round.

 

[Jets4Life]

I really have to firm up that response because it's actually kind of shocking the more I think about it.

I don't know what the save percentage was for him for the series against Vegas, but his entire playoffs was .913.

In 2018, Hellebuyck was 0.922% through the playoffs.

Now, that's a pretty okay number, but considering how bad he was against Vegas, that means he was probably something like 900 or below 900 for the series. Marc-Andre Fleury was lights out and absolutely stole the series. The skaters for the Jets were far better than Vegas. I don't know if Connor puts up really good numbers if we beat them, but I know we had no chance with the kinds of goals he was giving up and when he was giving them up. We would work our asses off to tie the game and score on Fleury, and he would let in a weak shot. So not only was he giving up way too many goals, but he was also letting in goals at terrible times. I'm not even sure if he was that spectacular in 2018 post season to begin with; Minnesota was hot garbage, and Nashville had a goaltender meltdown in game 7. That said, I'll give him credit; he certainly was reliable enough in the Nashville series that I didn't feel threatened whenever they had the puck. In the Vegas series, by the time we got into game three and four, anytime Vegas put towards our nets, I had the Spidey tingling that Pavelec used to give me.

To sum your post up:

Helle plays great: "The other teams were "hot garbage" or had "meltdowns"

Helle plays not-so-great: "He cost us the series! The Jets players were far better than the other team. We would have won, if Helle has not been complete trash."

Saying that Helley wasn't the issue in the vegas series of 2018 tells me you're either an unserious person or you just want to pick a fight

Whatever floats your boat, sport.

 

[White Out 902]

oh ya i was looking at his next seasons playoffs.

well, I got one thing wrong. He was good before Vegas. Actually Im not even sure I took the counter position did I?

 

[Eyeseeing]

This comment is reasonable and may reflect some truth.

Be that as it may , regardless of money Hellebuyck isn’t accepting a 4 year deal IMO

 

[kanadalainen]

Be that as it may , regardless of money Hellebuyck isn’t accepting a 4 year deal IMO

I know this. I just succumbed to a burst of kindness.

 

[kanadalainen]

Its a completely reasonable point of view but there's a lot of hysterical pearl clutching going on.

Hey, I (consistently) love me some Helly. He's the best goalie we will see around these parts, probably within the span of my meagre lifetime. But if

a. he wants out, says so too
b. he wants huge term at massive funding levels

then his contract will hurt us. Adios amigos viven mucho y prosperan!

 

[DannyGallivan]

Jack Wells..

Krog covered the local sports scene well on cave walls back in the day too.

 

[Ducky10]

It tells me that Vegas really lucked out. This was the exception, not the norm. Looking back for 30+ years, teams that made it to the cup final often have elite goalies backing them up. For every Binnington (who had one great season), there are a handful of keepers like Roy, Hasek, Price, Brodeur, Fleury, etc.

If Brossoit had not become injured, there is a good chance Vegas would have lost to the Oilers. Adin Hill had an incredible run, and good for him, but like Binnington, it's the exception to the rule.



If they Jets become a better team without Hellebuyck, that would be great. However, there is almost no chance that happens. Hellebuyck is the Jets MVP. We can make the same argument about giving Austin Matthews $12 million to tie him up. The fact is the Leafs are a better team with him on the roster. That is all that matters.

Yes it would make me very happy, if he resigned with the Jets. We have absolutely nobody to replace him in our system. Unfortunately, I am just being realistic, The Jets are going to be a much poorer team without him.

It’s not really the exception to the rule though. There have been plenty of Stanley Cup runs that have been accomplished without elite goaltending, despite some of those goaltenders actually being elite. Murray, Crawford, Fleury, Quick, Ward, Giguere, Brodeur, Osgood etc, all won Cups with their respective teams without necessarily being elite in particular years. They all had very strong teams in front of them that played their system’s extremely well. Seattle’s year was defined largely by their team play. Grubauer sported a .895 during the season and .903 during the playoffs and they came within one win of going to the Conference final.

The Jets aren’t going to have the horses for Helle to be the difference maker. If they did, I’d feel differently . Overpaying for goaltending is a fools game imo, it’s very overrated. The Jets are in a situation where they need pieces to rebuild around to create more balance and depth. I think Helle gives them that opportunity and the best case scenario is they build a strong enough team to compete with an average goaltender.

 

[cbcwpg]

It’s not really the exception to the rule though. There have been plenty of Stanley Cup runs that have been accomplished without elite goaltending, despite some of those goaltenders actually being elite. Murray, Crawford, Fleury, Quick, Ward, Giguere, Brodeur, Osgood etc, all won Cups with their respective teams without necessarily being elite in particular years. They all had very strong teams in front of them that played their system’s extremely well. Seattle’s year was defined largely by their team play. Grubauer sported a .895 during the season and .903 during the playoffs and they came within one win of going to the Conference final.

The Jets aren’t going to have the horses for Helle to be the difference maker. If they did, I’d feel differently . Overpaying for goaltending is a fools game imo, it’s very overrated. The Jets are in a situation where they need pieces to rebuild around to create more balance and depth. I think Helle gives them that opportunity and the best case scenario is they build a strong enough team to compete with an average goaltender.

We just saw this with Vegas. Hill gave Vegas decent goaltending, but IMO, Vegas was going to win the Cup no matter who they had in net. If you build a strong team like that, then having a $10,000,000 per year goalie isn't required.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

We just saw this with Vegas. Hill gave Vegas decent goaltending, but IMO, Vegas was going to win the Cup no matter who they had in net. If you build a strong team like that, then having a $10,000,000 per year goalie isn't required.

Of course, if Helly really does fade in the playoffs, shouldn't we all be hoping for him to sign long term in Vegas?

 

[Gabe Kupari]

As much as I enjoy Helle and think he's our franchise player, yup, paying him 10 million here don't work. And I think he gets us back maybe more than we think.. it's not to often vezina caliber top 5 minimum goalies in the league become available

 

[Eyeseeing]

Who needs Helle?
We have Wade Flaherty the goalie whisperer

 

[Gil Fisher]

Be that as it may , regardless of money Hellebuyck isn’t accepting a 4 year deal IMO

He might make more taking 4x40 and then a series of 3 and 2 year deals until he's done.

A team like Pittsburg, that is going to face a rebuild in 3 years, might give him 8 years at a lower AAV, knowing they'll probably have the space for his unproductive years.

 

[gojetsgo]

 

[Duke749]

I had a dream last night that Hellebuyck won the Vezina Trophy. lol

 

[ps241]

I doubt at trade happens for Helle today but if we want 2023 draft capital for him as part of the package then he would have to be moved by the draft floor tomorrow. Not sure that would be part of a package from the Devils but I suspect it would from the Pens.

 

[MelikeJets]

I doubt at trade happens for Helle today but if we want 2023 draft capital for him as part of the package then he would have to be moved by the draft floor tomorrow. Not sure that would be part of a package from the Devils but I suspect it would from the Pens.

Interesting. I see it as a move to NJ and not Pit... But what do I know

 

[ps241]

Interesting. I see it as a move to NJ and not Pit... But what do I know

Well you know as much as me, thats for sure

 

[ERYX]

As for 2018, Hellebuyck played exceptionally well. This is the reality of the situation. You are the only one I have ever come across that has this delusional idea about Hellebuyck "choking" in the 2018 playoffs, and costing the Jets a Stanley Cup. That is beyond ridiculous. However, at least you're being honest, so I guess I will give credit where credit is due.

@White Out 403 isn't the only one, I know I have been "on record" several times saying that I think Helle's poor (or at best mediocre) play in the 2018 Vegas series was the main reason we lost that series, in addition to Fleury playing lights-out. We were definitely out-goalied that series and it was a series we should have won as we completely outplayed the Golden Knights' skaters.

Maybe I am not as vehement (see below) as he is. I don't hate Helle, but I also don't think he's ever really delivered the goods in the playoffs. In fairness, neither has the team in front of him aside from 2018.

Suffice to say I don't think Helle is worth any 9, 9.5, or 10 million per season. I sure wouldn't want the Jets paying him that kind of coin. I'm okay with his current salary for what he provides.

I really have to firm up that response because it's actually kind of shocking the more I think about it.

I don't know what the save percentage was for him for the series against Vegas, but his entire playoffs was .913. Now, that's a pretty okay number, but considering how bad he was against Vegas, that means he was probably something like 900 or below 900 for the series. Marc-Andre Fleury was lights out and absolutely stole the series. The skaters for the Jets were far better than Vegas. I don't know if Connor puts up really good numbers if we beat them, but I know we had no chance with the kinds of goals he was giving up and when he was giving them up. We would work our asses off to tie the game and score on Fleury, and he would let in a weak shot. So not only was he giving up way too many goals, but he was also letting in goals at terrible times. I'm not even sure if he was that spectacular in 2018 post season to begin with; Minnesota was hot garbage, and Nashville had a goaltender meltdown in game 7. That said, I'll give him credit; he certainly was reliable enough in the Nashville series that I didn't feel threatened whenever they had the puck. In the Vegas series, by the time we got into game three and four, anytime Vegas put towards our nets, I had the Spidey tingling that Pavelec used to give me.

Saying that Helley wasn't the issue in the vegas series of 2018 tells me you're either an unserious person or you just want to pick a fight

I looked it up and Helle's sv% in that series was .906 (versus Fleury's .938). In games 2, 3, and 4, Helle's save percentage was sub .890. He only put up decent save percentage in game 5, ironically, although Fleury was insane that game with .969.

I remember well that Vegas series and, starting in game 2, I very much had that same anxiety every time the opposing team touched the puck that I did during the Pavelec days. It just seemed that every time they took a half-decent shot it went in. My memory of the Nashville series was that it was a solid series with the teams going blow-for-blow, although yeah, their goalie did crack finally and before Helle did. Helle was good in the Min and Nash series, so he played his part in getting us to the conference finals, but IMO he was the weakest link in the Vegas series and deserves the lion's share of the blame for us not making it to the Cup finals. The skaters in front of him did everything one could ask of them.

 

[BoneDocUK]

@White Out 403 isn't the only one, I know I have been "on record" several times saying that I think Helle's poor (or at best mediocre) play in the 2018 Vegas series was the main reason we lost that series, in addition to Fleury playing lights-out. We were definitely out-goalied that series and it was a series we should have won as we completely outplayed the Golden Knights' skaters.

Maybe I am not as vehement (see below) as he is. I don't hate Helle, but I also don't think he's ever really delivered the goods in the playoffs. In fairness, neither has the team in front of him aside from 2018.

Suffice to say I don't think Helle is worth any 9, 9.5, or 10 million per season. I sure wouldn't want the Jets paying him that kind of coin. I'm okay with his current salary for what he provides.


I looked it up and Helle's sv% in that series was .906 (versus Fleury's .938). In games 2, 3, and 4, Helle's save percentage was sub .890. He only put up decent save percentage in game 5, ironically, although Fleury was insane that game with .969.

I remember well that Vegas series and, starting in game 2, I very much had that same anxiety every time the opposing team touched the puck that I did during the Pavelec days. It just seemed that every time they took a half-decent shot it went in. My memory of the Nashville series was that it was a solid series with the teams going blow-for-blow, although yeah, their goalie did crack finally and before Helle did. Helle was good in the Min and Nash series, so he played his part in getting us to the conference finals, but IMO he was the weakest link in the Vegas series and deserves the lion's share of the blame for us not making it to the Cup finals. The skaters in front of him did everything one could ask of them.

I think most would agree that Helle was outplayed in that Vegas series but aside from MAF's brilliance, I've often wondered how much of that was straight-up fatigue after -- once again -- a season of utterly failed load management during which he played 130 games and 7700+ minutes over back-to-back season, plus 17 PO games during that run. PoMo played him into the ground as a matter of philosophy, year after year, and it showed.

IIRC, he looked wiped by the end of the NSH series.

This year, again, he looked gassed against Vegas. I doubt we had the horses to take that series anyway, but he didn't look capable of stealing it.

Helle was the strong spine of this team for years -- it ain't on him that the org took his talent and stability for granted and did little to address the defensive deficiencies that mad his workload even less manageable by making our D-zone a shooting gallery game in / game out for most of his time here.

 

[Jets4Life]

@White Out 403 isn't the only one, I know I have been "on record" several times saying that I think Helle's poor (or at best mediocre) play in the 2018 Vegas series was the main reason we lost that series, in addition to Fleury playing lights-out. We were definitely out-goalied that series and it was a series we should have won as we completely outplayed the Golden Knights' skaters.

Maybe I am not as vehement (see below) as he is. I don't hate Helle, but I also don't think he's ever really delivered the goods in the playoffs. In fairness, neither has the team in front of him aside from 2018.

Suffice to say I don't think Helle is worth any 9, 9.5, or 10 million per season. I sure wouldn't want the Jets paying him that kind of coin. I'm okay with his current salary for what he provides.

It must be great to selectively pick and choose certain games, and label Hellebuyck a goalie who chokes in the playoffs. Again, this is the problem with some Winnipeg fans. Never mind the fact that Hellebucyk was outstanding against Minnesota and Nashville (he arguably was the main reason we made it to the Conference Finals. BTW, the Jets team was outplayed by Vegas in the series. You are spreading lies, when you argue that aside from Hellebuyck, the Jets players outplayed the Vegas players in that series, which is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard on this forum.

Let's also leave out the 2021 playoff series against the Oilers, where Helle stood on his head, against a superior Oilers team. I find it amazing the length's a certain minority of posters will go through to imply that Hellebuyck was essentially mediocre at best.

We could have won Connor McDavid in the draft lottery, and the same people would want him gone, since "He never had a 200 point season like Gretzky." Most of us sane fans know that Hellebuyck is the best goalie the Jets ever had, as well as arguably being one of the top 3 goalies in the past 6 seasons. Haters will be haters. Imagine constantly pissing on the one Jets player who has dragged the Jets kicking and screaming into the playoffs year after year, only to make a narrative that he sucks.

I looked it up and Helle's sv% in that series was .906 (versus Fleury's .938). In games 2, 3, and 4, Helle's save percentage was sub .890. He only put up decent save percentage in game 5, ironically, although Fleury was insane that game with .969.

I remember well that Vegas series and, starting in game 2, I very much had that same anxiety every time the opposing team touched the puck that I did during the Pavelec days. It just seemed that every time they took a half-decent shot it went in. My memory of the Nashville series was that it was a solid series with the teams going blow-for-blow, although yeah, their goalie did crack finally and before Helle did. Helle was good in the Min and Nash series, so he played his part in getting us to the conference finals, but IMO he was the weakest link in the Vegas series and deserves the lion's share of the blame for us not making it to the Cup finals. The skaters in front of him did everything one could ask of them.

This post speaks for itself. Helle was "OK" during the Minnesota and Nashville series, and reading between the lines, he was comparable to Pavelec, and had no part in the reason we made it to the Conference Finals (the other goalies just sucked). We must have been watching two different Jets teams in the 2018 playoffs, since Hellebuyck played exceptionally well, when we look at all of the 17 games he started (mediocre goalies, who suck in the playoffs don't have 0.922% saving percentages).

Let's just be real here. Hellebuyck could win the Conn Smythe for the Jets, and lead them to the Cup. There will still be the same posters who will reply "but he played terrible this year in 5 games against #1 rated Vegas in the playoffs, so he is no better than Pavelec!"

 

[ERYX]

It must be great to selectively pick and choose certain games, and label Hellebuyck a goalie who chokes in the playoffs. Again, this is the problem with some Winnipeg fans. Never mind the fact that Hellebucyk was outstanding against Minnesota and Nashville (he arguably was the main reason we made it to the Conference Finals. BTW, the Jets team was outplayed by Vegas in the series. You are spreading lies, when you argue that aside from Hellebuyck, the Jets players outplayed the Vegas players in that series, which is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard on this forum.

Let's also leave out the 2021 playoff series against the Oilers, where Helle stood on his head, against a superior Oilers team. I find it amazing the length's a certain minority of posters will go through to imply that Hellebuyck was essentially mediocre at best.

We could have won Connor McDavid in the draft lottery, and the same people would want him gone, since "He never had a 200 point season like Gretzky." Most of us sane fans know that Hellebuyck is the best goalie the Jets ever had, as well as arguably being one of the top 3 goalies in the past 6 seasons. Haters will be haters. Imagine constantly pissing on the one Jets player who has dragged the Jets kicking and screaming into the playoffs year after year, only to make a narrative that he sucks.




This post speaks for itself. Helle was "OK" during the Minnesota and Nashville series, and reading between the lines, he was comparable to Pavelec, and had no part in the reason we made it to the Conference Finals (the other goalies just sucked). We must have been watching two different Jets teams in the 2018 playoffs, since Hellebuyck played exceptionally well, when we look at all of the 17 games he started (mediocre goalies, who suck in the playoffs don't have 0.922% saving percentages).

Let's just be real here. Hellebuyck could win the Conn Smythe for the Jets, and lead them to the Cup. There will still be the same posters who will reply "but he played terrible this year in 5 games against #1 rated Vegas in the playoffs, so he is no better than Pavelec!"

You seem really angry.

I personally don't take any of this stuff personally. I freely admit I'm an old-school "dumb" "eye test" type of fan. I'm just saying that's how the Vegas series appeared to me as I watched it.

Also I never said Helle was "OK" in the Minnesota and Nashville series, I said he was "good". As I think about the Nashville series more I'm prepared to say that good isn't enough, he was very good or even great in that series and he deserves credit for getting us to the Conference finals as I said.

I didn't say he was Pavelec, I simply said that I was feeling the same during the Vegas series as I felt during Pavelec's time ... that the puck would go in any second whenever the opposing team had the puck. That's not the same as saying he's Pavs. It's just saying his .890 sv% during games 2-4 had me nervous and it was tough hockey to watch. Obviously he's not Pavs, he's way better, and I agree that he's the best goalie Jets 2.0 have had by a wide margin. @JetsUK make a very good point about Helle being overworked and gassed by the Vegas series. That's a fair assessment. Helle has definitely been overworked over the years and too much reliance placed on him.

To reiterate, my final conclusion was that I think Helle is good value at his current contract but I don't think he's worth $9-10 million on a long-term contract when he hits UFA. Definitely doesn't mean he's garbage or has been garbage. I'm not sure spending that much on a goalie is ever a great idea. If someone does pay him that I don't know if they'll have the money to give him proper load management and thus he may not be able to reach his full potential, I don't know.

Hope your day gets better.