Transfer: 2024 Summer Transfer Window - Closed Window Discussion

[cgf]

Woof!

I’m not sure how one can remotely contemplate the thought that Nagelsmann got more out of those talents than Klopp out of his when Klopp’s won two BuLis and made a UCL Final. There’s no comparison at all there.

“Mediocre talent into an NTer” Sandro Wagner was an NTer at a nadir for the NT, whereas Klopp had Kevin f***ing Großkreutz make it into an NT that won a World Cup.

Klopp’s Dortmund resume alone makes the “Nagelsmann is better” claim a difficult one to justify, and that’s not even touching the Liverpool squad he inherited, built, and turned into a machine. A "Tuesday night in Stoke" (can we retire that line? at this point it's just corny) need not enter the equation here.

Also just lmao at Tuchel getting “sonned by Pep.” Was he getting sonned by Pep when his Chelsea beat City three times in six weeks en route to a UCL win and an FA Cup final? And that team, to anyone who actually watched it, was not even remotely cynical.

Nagelsmann has done nothing to persuade me he is more than the third best German manager right now.

Being consistent with the standards one applies, double checking your facts, and looking under the surface helps you come to more accurate conclusions

For example, the German NT was still on top of the world when Wagner played for us; we were defending world champs and should've been defending European champs as well if Jogi hadn't f***ed it up. We were soon to be embarrassed in Russia, but that was after Wagner's NT stint.

And despite coming along to throw kebabs in the Brazil, Großkreutz never actually played for the NT in anything other than Friendlies. Both made the NT for the same reason, our longstanding lack of depth at Striker & FB, but at least Wagner got into some qualifiers.

So if you don't know the context, bringing up Großkreutz seems like a witty retort, but a) people who remember those days remember that Wagner's contribution to the NT was more impressive than Großkreutz's, and b) in your rush to be clever you missed the entire point of that paragraph.


It wasn't to compare their most impressive low-talent player, it was that Nagelsmann is much better than Klopp at working with whatever he's given because he's so much more versatile / flexible.


Similarly the Klopp won two titles response seems like a good one to people who don't know that Klopp faced a weaker Bayern in his first 4 years at Dortmund than Nagelsmann did in his 3 seasons at Leipzig...who he took to a UCL semi final in his short time there.

Which is why Tuchel's BVB was able to earn more pts in his first season than Klopp's did the first time they won the title and still finish 10pts behind Bayern...during which time Pep took advantage of Tuchel's naivety when they went head to head, causing Tuchel to become more & more negative tactically.

This response also forgets that it's Klopp's Mainz tenure that is more analogous to Nagelsmann's Hoffenheim tenure, than Klopp's time in Dortmund. And only someone who had absolutely no idea what they were talking about would try to argue that Klopp's work with Mainz was even close to as impressive as JN's work with TSG.


Replace the cold night in stoke meme with the phrase EPL-proven if that's more appealing to you. That's all it is. Once Nagelsmann's EPL-proven suddenly his Bundesliga work will become more impressive and people will recognize what he was able to do. Same way Klopp's Dortmund days used to get downplayed before his success with Liverpool.

 

[Savant]

FSG taking another run at trying to bring Michael Edwards back.

Edwards is demanding full control, FSG is considering it

 

[Chimaera]

100%. Give it to him.

 

[al secord]

just like half the board currently supports Bayern? i don't think you have to worry about this happening...

I also have a Lille neck tattoo

 

[cgf]

I'm fully on board with Nagelsmann being a top manager. He did some pretty good things at RB Leipzig though some of that is also development and scouting just like Klopp has benefitted from. JN is young, he can adapt tactically, and he has decades in front of him.

My issue still stems from the fact that JN has NOT done it at a bigger stage than RB Leipzig (I could see an argument that given more time, he could have done it at Bayern... but I think that also defeats some of the argument). There also quickly is going to be a question of it 3-4 seasons and moving on is his shelf life.

I just think it's pretty ridiculous to compare the two. Look at the entire rebuild that was done for Liverpool. I don't want to go back and post it, but look at some of the lineups Klopp walked into. I think you could make the argument that RB Leipzig was on the way up when Nagelsmann walked into the squad. Sure, he improved them, but it wasn't like he was taking over for a complete decimation of a roster. Klopp has consistently gotten more out of his players than could likely be expected. They couldn't just bomb off a 50 million player like City can. They couldn't afford to reinforce parts. He had to make do with what was there. Tactically, he has made adaptations based upon what he has to work with and he's consistently integrated new parts as the squad has moved on. It's no coincidence that transfers Liverpool is batting at such a high rate. Their scouting / recruitment is absurd, but it helps when you have a manger so adept at integrating parts. Plenty of other clubs have failed with quality players. His achievements speak for itself.

It's a strong take and I don't hate it. But right now, probably not really comparable. In a decade? Sure, I think that's easier to make. When the German national team bombs out of it, there will be some stink on him. If he doesn't pick the right job next, and win something, the idea could be completely laughable.

Is Bayern's implosion since firing Nagelsmann not proof enough that JN was in fact getting it done at a big club until Kahn & Brazzo f***ed everything up? That team was a machine despite having "no striker" or holding 6, and immediately regressed under Tuchel...who isn't a terrible coach...almost losing the title to BVB.

I'm also not arguing that current Nagelsmann has a better resume than current Klopp. I'm arguing that when Klopp left Germany, his resume wasn't as impressive as Nagelsmann's is atm. I do think Nagelsmann may already be an even better coach, but he doesn't have the resume Klopp does...at least not yet.


And both the Liverpool & Dortmund squads that Klopp inherited, despite being "in the dumps" were way better than the Hoffenheim that Nagelsmann saved from relegation after taking over in the winter, only to take them to the CL the very next year.

Mainz was the only time Klopp had to deal with as little talent as JN started his career with, and Mainz never reached the heights that Nagelsmann had TSG at after just 6 months. His work with TSG might be even more impressive than his run with Leipzig or how dominant he had a Bayern team with ECMC leading the line.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Being consistent with the standards one applies, double checking your facts, and looking under the surface helps you come to more accurate conclusions

For example, the German NT was still on top of the world when Wagner played for us; we were defending world champs and should've been defending European champs as well if Jogi hadn't f***ed it up. We were soon to be embarrassed in Russia, but that was after Wagner's NT stint.

And despite coming along to throw kebabs in the Brazil, Großkreutz never actually played for the NT in anything other than Friendlies. Both made the NT for the same reason, our longstanding lack of depth at Striker & FB, but at least Wagner got into some qualifiers.

So if you don't know the context, bringing up Großkreutz seems like a witty retort, but a) people who remember those days remember that Wagner's contribution to the NT was more impressive than Großkreutz's, and b) in your rush to be clever you missed the entire point of that paragraph.


It wasn't to compare their most impressive low-talent player, it was that Nagelsmann is much better than Klopp at working with whatever he's given because he's so much more versatile / flexible.


Similarly the Klopp won two titles response seems like a good one to people who don't know that Klopp faced a weaker Bayern in his first 4 years at Dortmund than Nagelsmann did in his 3 seasons at Leipzig...who he took to a UCL semi final in his short time there.

Which is why Tuchel's BVB was able to earn more pts in his first season than Klopp's did the first time they won the title and still finish 10pts behind Bayern...during which time Pep took advantage of Tuchel's naivety when they went head to head, causing Tuchel to become more & more negative tactically.

This response also forgets that it's Klopp's Mainz tenure that is more analogous to Nagelsmann's Hoffenheim tenure, than Klopp's time in Dortmund. And only someone who had absolutely no idea what they were talking about would try to argue that Klopp's work with Mainz was even close to as impressive as JN's work with TSG.


Replace the cold night in stoke meme with the phrase EPL-proven if that's more appealing to you. That's all it is. Once Nagelsmann's EPL-proven suddenly his Bundesliga work will become more impressive and people will recognize what he was able to do. Same way Klopp's Dortmund days used to get downplayed before his success with Liverpool.

I guess my point with Wagner and Grosskreutz is simply that I honestly don't think that a mediocre striker making a national team because it has no options in his position is a feather in Nagelsmann's cap. And given that Grosskreutz played every match in the 2010-11 title season, almost every match in the 2011-12, and almost every in the 2013 UCL run (including starting the final), I think we can probably acknowledge that Klopp did a helluva lot of working with crap and making it into something. It's great that Jonas Hoffmann was good elsewhere, I guess. I'm happy for the guy. Also, as an aside, the pivot from "Gnabry was a bust before Nagelsmann got to him" to "Gnabry was very good at a limited thing but developed into a much better player"? A work of elegant beauty.

The Bayern team that Klopp won league titles over played in three Champions League finals in four seasons. If it is a weaker team, it is not by a grand significant margin. The 2011-12 Dortmund Bundesliga winners set a record for points in a season.

I'm of the opinion that Tuchel's BVB is close to as impressive as Klopp's (the major gulf in Europe is a problem for me), so that's maybe not the gotcha you think it is here.

Fun as it is to hype up Leipzig's UCL semi run (in which they were battered in the semis), I'm of the opinion that making an actual final and losing to a stoppage time winner is likely more impressive, especially given the route to the final in which BVB walked the group of death and Robert Lewandowski (who Klopp, according to you, got less out of than Nagelsmann did out of Dani Olmo? Okie dokie) battered a very good Real team so hard that it put writing on the wall for Mourinho.

And all of this runs into the major wall of Klopp's time at Liverpool, which has been (I think most would agree) more impressive than his time at Dortmund.

Nagelsmann's work in the Bundesliga is extremely impressive, so you can take that particular chip off your shoulder. To say that he's proven to be a better manager than Jurgen Klopp, on today, February 28, 2024? Hard to rationalize.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Also (if I speak, I'm in big trouble!)

Tuchel's "shambolic" Bayern currently have 53 points from 23 games. They're on track for only 4 fewer points than the "much stronger than the ones who Klopp beat" Bayern team which won a treble in 2020.

Nagelsmann's Bayern had 52 from 24 when he was replaced last year.

Eep!

 

[luiginb]

Is Bayern's implosion since firing Nagelsmann not proof enough that JN was in fact getting it done at a big club until Kahn & Brazzo f***ed everything up? That team was a machine despite having "no striker" or holding 6, and immediately regressed under Tuchel...who isn't a terrible coach...almost losing the title to BVB.

I mean they did lose Pavard...

 

[Savant]

Wasn’t one of the reasons that Naglesmann got canned because he was leaking locker room info and/or team sheets to his reporter girlfriend? That’s a pretty big red flag.

 

[cgf]

I guess my point with Wagner and Grosskreutz is simply that I honestly don't think that a mediocre striker making a national team because it has no options in his position is a feather in Nagelsmann's cap. And given that Grosskreutz played every match in the 2010-11 title season, almost every match in the 2011-12, and almost every in the 2013 UCL run (including starting the final), I think we can probably acknowledge that Klopp did a helluva lot of working with crap and making it into something. It's great that Jonas Hoffmann was good elsewhere, I guess. I'm happy for the guy.

The Bayern team that Klopp won league titles over played in three Champions League finals in four seasons. If it is a weaker team, it is not by a grand significant margin. The 2011-12 Dortmund Bundesliga winners set a record for points in a season.

I'm of the opinion that Tuchel's BVB is close to as impressive as Klopp's (the major gulf in Europe is a problem for me), so that's maybe not the gotcha you think it is here.

Fun as it is to hype up Leipzig's UCL semi run (in which they were battered in the semis), I'm of the opinion that making an actual final and losing to a stoppage time winner is likely more impressive, especially given the route to the final in which BVB walked the group of death and Robert Lewandowski (who Klopp, according to you, got less out of than Nagelsmann did out of Dani Olmo? Okie dokie) battered a very good Real team so hard that it put writing on the wall for Mourinho.

And all of this runs into the major wall of Klopp's time at Liverpool, which has been (I think most would agree) more impressive than his time at Dortmund.

Nagelsmann's work in the Bundesliga is extremely impressive, so you can take that particular chip off your shoulder. To say that he's proven to be a better manager than Jurgen Klopp, on today, February 28, 2024? Hard to rationalize.

Never said Klopp needs superstars to succeed, just that he needs "his kinda guys" a lot more than Nagelsmann; who has been a lot better at getting the most out of everyone he's had to work with in Germany. Klopp is good at building up players to, but he has needed a more specific kind of player to build up, whereas JN has built up (basically) everyone he's worked with.

I think the world of Klopp, which was why I was such a loud champion of his when I watched his club regularly, and thought TT was a brilliant coach before over-reacting to the way Pep was able to take his BVB apart, but what Nagelsmann has been doing so far has been even more special....so far.

How many years did it take Klopp to get BVB to the CL finals? If Nagelsmann had stayed in Leipzig for 7 years like I wish he had, then you could do a 1 to 1 comparison, but he got greedy and made the mistake of going to Bayern.

And that wall is only a wall if you're trying to straw man my argument. Because Klopp's Liverpool days have absolutely nothing to do with Klopp's time in Germany. I don't watch the EPL closely enough to comment on Klopp's time there, so I can only compare JN's work so far to Kloppo when he left Germany.

I'll leave the era conversation aside because I could write a novel about Bayern's stranglehold on the Bundesliga before & after Pep if I let myself lol, and conceding that point isn't really fundamental to my argument.


PS Lewa was great for Klopp, but he wasn't as great as he went on to become. 2013 was the only time he hit a scorer per game for Dortmund and was a clear standout campaign during his Dortmund days. He only fell short of that mark twice for Bayern, his first season in Bavaria and 2019 when he had 32 scorer pts in 33 matches.

Stats aren't everything and some of that is just Bayern being better than Dortmund in that time, but Lewa did take his game to another level after working with pep.


PPS sorry this response has gotten so disorganized, trying to touch on everything but the day's starting to get busier so keeping my mind focused on responding to you has gotten tricksier

Wasn’t one of the reasons that Naglesmann got canned because he was leaking locker room info and/or team sheets to his reporter girlfriend? That’s a pretty big red flag.

Kahn & Brazzo made up a lot of s*** that later got debunked. He was fired because Neuer & Müller didn't like him starting the leadership transition that that locker-room needed, and Kahn & Brazzo sided with Neuer & Müller over Nagelsmann.

 

[Chimaera]

Is Bayern's implosion since firing Nagelsmann not proof enough that JN was in fact getting it done at a big club until Kahn & Brazzo f***ed everything up? That team was a machine despite having "no striker" or holding 6, and immediately regressed under Tuchel...who isn't a terrible coach...almost losing the title to BVB.

I'm also not arguing that current Nagelsmann has a better resume than current Klopp. I'm arguing that when Klopp left Germany, his resume wasn't as impressive as Nagelsmann's is atm. I do think Nagelsmann may already be an even better coach, but he doesn't have the resume Klopp does...at least not yet.


And both the Liverpool & Dortmund squads that Klopp inherited, despite being "in the dumps" were way better than the Hoffenheim that Nagelsmann saved from relegation after taking over in the winter, only to take them to the CL the very next year.

Mainz was the only time Klopp had to deal with as little talent as JN started his career with, and Mainz never reached the heights that Nagelsmann had TSG at after just 6 months. His work with TSG might be even more impressive than his run with Leipzig or how dominant he had a Bayern team with ECMC leading the line.

I think that's my issue with the discussion. I think much of it can't really be shown until Nagelsmann has another job with the longevity to show it. A lot of managers have a good 2-3 window. Klopp at this point has had more than one (arguably a really good 6 year window at Liverpool), at potentially a more difficult stop.

It's really hard to argue that Klopp isn't superior, though in the opposite positions are fun to think about.

 

[cgf]

I think that's my issue with the discussion. I think much of it can't really be shown until Nagelsmann has another job with the longevity to show it. A lot of managers have a good 2-3 window. Klopp at this point has had more than one (arguably a really good 6 year window at Liverpool), at potentially a more difficult stop.

It's really hard to argue that Klopp isn't superior, though in the opposite positions are fun to think about.

That's fair...and one of the many reasons I wish JN had stayed in Leipzig with Eberl...and a genuine advantage for Klopp, but what JN has done to transform the clubs he's been at while he was there, has been so damn impressive.

Pep's the only coach I've seen in the BuLi that I've been more impressed by and Pep was much older / in a different phase of his career. Plus it's not like Pep had stayed anywhere for more than 3-4 years until City, either.

This all said, I hope Nagelsmann doesn't go to Liverpool but instead stays in Germany so he can work with more German talents day in & day out. I still maintain that Newcastle should've gone after him hard last summer, pitching him on being their Klopp...only with a bigger budget...but selfishly I want him developing players for the NT.

 

[bluesfan94]

The current rumor is that Mudryk was "devastated" when he went to Chelsea instead of Arsenal.

 

[Chimaera]

That's fair...and one of the many reasons I wish JN had stayed in Leipzig with Eberl...and a genuine advantage for Klopp, but what JN has done to transform the clubs he's been at while he was there, has been so damn impressive.

Pep's the only coach I've seen in the BuLi that I've been more impressed by and Pep was much older / in a different phase of his career. Plus it's not like Pep had stayed anywhere for more than 3-4 years until City, either.

This all said, I hope Nagelsmann doesn't go to Liverpool but instead stays in Germany so he can work with more German talents day in & day out. I still maintain that Newcastle should've gone after him hard last summer, pitching him on being their Klopp...only with a bigger budget...but selfishly I want him developing players for the NT.

I think he has to pick the right job next. I don't think the NT is the job.

Like it or not, his first set of bad results and the Klopp spectre is going to be even more of a thing than it is.

 

[Chimaera]

I'll also say this, JN doesn't fit the Liverpool timeline in any case. While I think if he really wanted the job and Alonso said no, they would work something out, he won't be available until July in all probability (that's also with little to no break).

I also do think he would have some work to do in selling himself to the Liverpool supporters. He came off as arrogant in BOTH ties between Liverpool and his clubs. The second one with Leipzig, he would not change his tactical plan even when Liverpool were just abusing them. That's fine, but Klopp ate his lunch.

 

[Eye of Ra]

I mean they did lose Pavard...

fantastic player

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Wasn’t one of the reasons that Naglesmann got canned because he was leaking locker room info and/or team sheets to his reporter girlfriend? That’s a pretty big red flag.

I don't know if we know how much veracity there was to those allegation but think there were just personality conflicts, especially between him and the upper brass. There were also murmurs about the way they approached training and tactics (especially in the first season when Lewandowski felt he wasn't being utilized correctly). Chimaera mentioned "arrogance," and I think there is more a "youthful" confidence/swagger and approach that just didn't quite jive with what the club was used to. There were also some issues particularly around Neuer with the sacking of a long-time goalkeeping coach, though most of the rest of the players seemed to back him and have positive things to say about him overall (e.g. Goretzka, Müller, Kimmich, etc...).

Also, despite overall results (he was still in all 3 competitions when sacked), some of the issues that have particularly come to a head under Tuchel were also there throughout his tenure (as well as Flick's last year)--staleness and lack of incisiveness in attack, lack of a holding midfield, leakiness in the back, iffy mentality/composure (blowing a 9 point advantage over BVB), etc... Tuchel's squad has been punished more harshly for those issues though.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I mean they did lose Pavard...

I know you jest but I'll risk the wrath of the anti-Pavards that he was really good last year and it would have solved at least one of Bayern's problems if he hadn't left (or they hadn't loaned Stanisic...which was because they thought Pavard was staying, but I digress).

 

[luiginb]

I know you jest but I'll risk the wrath of the anti-Pavards that he was really good last year and it would have solved at least one of Bayern's problems if he hadn't left (or they hadn't loaned Stanisic...which was because they thought Pavard was staying, but I digress).

I don't jest, he's one of my favourite players. It isn't a coincidence either Inter is very hard to beat now since he's started playing for them.

People hate on him because of his less than aesthetic style of play and our French poster here also said he's kind of an asshole in his personal life, but he's a proven winner everywhere he played.

 

[Evilo]

He sucks everytime he faces good competition. CL, NT, every single time. He's an asshole, but he's ALSO a very average football player.

 

[Epictetus]

I wouldn’t go Amorim (ahead of certain others)

Honestly my 2nd choice is just to raid Inter Milan. Get Inzaghi and a bunch of his guys. Inter will sell anyone anyway.

Then would prob have Nagelsmann 3 followed by Amorim and RDZ; but if it’s not Alonso no one is going to be happy; he’s been built up too much.

Honestly hoping Klopp has a wolf of Wall Street moment and decides he’s not going anywhere. One more year; it’s a shame he doesn’t get to go out without one more UCL run but when it’s time it’s time

I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if they go Amorim if they can't get Alonso. From what I understand, a lot of analytics have him very highly rated football-wise.

 

[Savant]

I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if they go Amorim if they can't get Alonso. From what I understand, a lot of analytics have him very highly rated football-wise.

Oh for sure, they could do a lot worse than Amorim. What I kind of keep coming back to is Amorim (and others) would be a great hire if LFC was in the same situation it was when Klopp was hired. The expectations are a lot different now. It’s a strong locker room but you’ve got some big names in there to manage too. Think whoever they bring in needs a bit more credibility. (I may not be articulating this how I want to) but again they could do worse than Amorim

 

[cgf]

I think he has to pick the right job next. I don't think the NT is the job.

Like it or not, his first set of bad results and the Klopp spectre is going to be even more of a thing than it is.

Like I said, I still wish he & Eberl had stayed in Leipzig together because Pep is the only coach I've seen do better work in the Bundesliga, but time will tell. Expectations are pretty low right now, and JN pulling off a 2006 wouldn't exactly be totally out of the blue. We have done well against big teams in recent years and there's a ton of attacking talent. So it wouldn't exactly be a shock if he overachieved expectations with the NT if JN can get the balance right.

 

[cgf]

I'll also say this, JN doesn't fit the Liverpool timeline in any case. While I think if he really wanted the job and Alonso said no, they would work something out, he won't be available until July in all probability (that's also with little to no break).

I also do think he would have some work to do in selling himself to the Liverpool supporters. He came off as arrogant in BOTH ties between Liverpool and his clubs. The second one with Leipzig, he would not change his tactical plan even when Liverpool were just abusing them. That's fine, but Klopp ate his lunch.

It's curious to me that Alonso is first choice over Nagelsmann for any club, even one that Xabi played for and so the supporters will be more patient with him.

Not trying to take anything away from the great work he's done since taking charge last season...as he's done a really fantastic job of building up their self belief and giving them a solid tactical foundation,

But he's even less proven than Nagelsmann, he has more talent than JN did at Leipzig...and way more than he had at Hoffenheim...Xabi hasn't shown as much tactical versatility/flexibility, nor has he proven himself in the CL as a manager.

If I didn't know about their playing careers and judged them just on their work as a coaches in Germany I would be absolutely shocked.

 

[maclean]

Being consistent with the standards one applies, double checking your facts, and looking under the surface helps you come to more accurate conclusions

For example, the German NT was still on top of the world when Wagner played for us; we were defending world champs and should've been defending European champs as well if Jogi hadn't f***ed it up. We were soon to be embarrassed in Russia, but that was after Wagner's NT stint.

And despite coming along to throw kebabs in the Brazil, Großkreutz never actually played for the NT in anything other than Friendlies. Both made the NT for the same reason, our longstanding lack of depth at Striker & FB, but at least Wagner got into some qualifiers.

So if you don't know the context, bringing up Großkreutz seems like a witty retort, but a) people who remember those days remember that Wagner's contribution to the NT was more impressive than Großkreutz's, and b) in your rush to be clever you missed the entire point of that paragraph.


It wasn't to compare their most impressive low-talent player, it was that Nagelsmann is much better than Klopp at working with whatever he's given because he's so much more versatile / flexible.


Similarly the Klopp won two titles response seems like a good one to people who don't know that Klopp faced a weaker Bayern in his first 4 years at Dortmund than Nagelsmann did in his 3 seasons at Leipzig...who he took to a UCL semi final in his short time there.

Which is why Tuchel's BVB was able to earn more pts in his first season than Klopp's did the first time they won the title and still finish 10pts behind Bayern...during which time Pep took advantage of Tuchel's naivety when they went head to head, causing Tuchel to become more & more negative tactically.

This response also forgets that it's Klopp's Mainz tenure that is more analogous to Nagelsmann's Hoffenheim tenure, than Klopp's time in Dortmund. And only someone who had absolutely no idea what they were talking about would try to argue that Klopp's work with Mainz was even close to as impressive as JN's work with TSG.


Replace the cold night in stoke meme with the phrase EPL-proven if that's more appealing to you. That's all it is. Once Nagelsmann's EPL-proven suddenly his Bundesliga work will become more impressive and people will recognize what he was able to do. Same way Klopp's Dortmund days used to get downplayed before his success with Liverpool.

My tl;dr from this is that Pep ruined Tuchel as a coach