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Red Sox/MLB 2024 Spring Training Part 4: - Ownership seems content with another last place finish in 2024

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Johnnyduke said:
We are talking about Manny Ramirez, correct? Wasn't he dinged like 3 times?

That and he's an a-hole. Great hitter though.
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I think the point was made that Manny didn't test positive during the "true roid era", whatever that means.

Show me a prominent athlete in any sport between 1990 and 2010, and my guess is they were probably on something, unless proven otherwise.
 
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GatorMike said:
I think the point was made that Manny didn't test positive during the "true roid era", whatever that means.

Show me a prominent athlete in any sport between 1990 and 2010, and my guess is they were probably on something, unless proven otherwise.
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We should also remember that MLB didn't even start testing till 2003. So I agree, 9 years to start his career in the prime steroid era. But I am also not gonna forget the fact he was bagged a couple times towards end of his career.
 
GatorMike said:
I think the point was made that Manny didn't test positive during the "true roid era", whatever that means.

Show me a prominent athlete in any sport between 1990 and 2010, and my guess is they were probably on something, unless proven otherwise.
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Leave Pedro and Nomar OUT OF THIS
 
GatorMike said:
I think the point was made that Manny didn't test positive during the "true roid era", whatever that means.

Show me a prominent athlete in any sport between 1990 and 2010, and my guess is they were probably on something, unless proven otherwise.
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You can't paint them all with a broad brush like that it's totally unfair.
 
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Steroid era is a real chapter in baseball history, there’s no point in trying to deny it. I think you look at the stats and use the context but I don’t think steroid guys should automatically get banned.

And I have this opinion solely because I want to see Manny get into the HOF. A-Rod deserves in too.
 
McGarnagle said:
Munson's right on the borderline as is, and given the tragic death while still playing in a big market, it's kind of surprising that the Veteran's Committee never put him in. If he doesn't die and plays 5 more years, he's in for sure.

But if Munson is in, Gene Tenace has to go in - remarkably similar resumes and there are stats where Tenace outpaces Munson (including rings). So I figure they don't want to open the floodgates by putting a borderline case like Munson in.

Mauer absolutely deserves it. The one that's going to be interesting is Posey. When he was on the field all you could think is that this guy is a future HOFer. But he retired young on his own terms. Has 3 rings, ROY, MVP, Gold Glove, and Silver Sluggers in his trophy case. But because he retired at 34 he doesn't have a lot of the accumulators or grand totals they look for.
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Mauer, Posey, Munson, Tenace, and even Posada probably deserve to be in the Hall. Great article in The Athletic today explaining why. And why picking HOF players based solely on WAR is a stupid idea.

theathletic.com

Looking at Buster Posey's Hall of Fame case through the lens of Joe Mauer

Hall of Fame voters are right to celebrate Posey and Mauer, just at they were wrong to overlook Gene Tenace and Jorge Posada, among others.
theathletic.com theathletic.com
 
RoccoF14 said:
Mauer, Posey, Munson, Tenace, and even Posada probably deserve to be in the Hall. Great article in The Athletic today explaining why. And why picking HOF players based solely on WAR is a stupid idea.

theathletic.com

Looking at Buster Posey's Hall of Fame case through the lens of Joe Mauer

Hall of Fame voters are right to celebrate Posey and Mauer, just at they were wrong to overlook Gene Tenace and Jorge Posada, among others.
theathletic.com theathletic.com
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Any article that makes a case for Posada or some of these others to be put into the HOF I am lining my cat box with it.

The bar is getting into the basement for this. HOF is becoming useless.
 
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I don't think I ever once heard someone say Posada is a Hall of Famer until this thread.

And clearly CLEARLY the Hall of Fame is not becoming the Hall of WAR because some very undeserving players have made it in over the last ten years with underwhelming WARs.
 
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EverettMike said:
I don't think I ever once heard someone say Posada is a Hall of Famer until this thread.

And clearly CLEARLY the Hall of Fame is not becoming the Hall of WAR because some very undeserving players have made it in over the last ten years with underwhelming WARs.
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I am starting to wonder if some voters also feel pressure to vote for a certain amount of guys every year. I don't know. It's not just one factor leading to this. Some of these voters go on crusades to get a certain guy in. It's basically like a political whip. Then there is the popularity factor. We all agree that Curt Schilling is a giant POS but to me he should be in the HOF.
 
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CDJ said:
Steroid era is a real chapter in baseball history, there’s no point in trying to deny it. I think you look at the stats and use the context but I don’t think steroid guys should automatically get banned.

And I have this opinion solely because I want to see Manny get into the HOF. A-Rod deserves in too.
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This is where I'm at. I'd be willing to bet there are guys in the HOF already that were taking some kind of performance enhancers before it was an issue. MLB knew about it and they didn't care because the HR race brought life back into the sport. Once the Government got involved, then MLB had to act like they actually cared about the integrity of the game.

Fast forward to today and MLB is making all kind of rule changes to create more offense....because that's what sells. I still believe that MLB is using juiced balls to help the long ball.

The steroid ERA was from '94 to '04. The Avg HR per season was 4,950. Over the last 10yrs MLB Avg HR per season is 5,250....and that includes the Covid year where they only had 2,303 HR's hit.
 
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Johnnyduke said:
I am starting to wonder if some voters also feel pressure to vote for a certain amount of guys every year. I don't know. It's not just one factor leading to this. Some of these voters go on crusades to get a certain guy in. It's basically like a political whip. Then there is the popularity factor. We all agree that Curt Schilling is a giant POS but to me he should be in the HOF.
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He was absolutely about to go in before he demanded no one vote for him. He would have went in the following year.

But while he wants to make it a political thing, Schilling is far from a slam dunk purely on his playing merits. To me he's a fringe case. If he's the line where people don't get in that's not a bad thing for people who want the Hall to hold back on letting in too many.
 
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ON3M4N said:
This is where I'm at. I'd be willing to bet there are guys in the HOF already that were taking some kind of performance enhancers before it was an issue. MLB knew about it and they didn't care because the HR race brought life back into the sport. Once the Government got involved, then MLB had to act like they actually cared about the integrity of the game.

Fast forward to today and MLB is making all kind of rule changes to create more offense....because that's what sells. I still believe that MLB is using juiced balls to help the long ball.

The steroid ERA was from '94 to '04. The Avg HR per season was 4,950. Over the last 10yrs MLB Avg HR per season is 5,250....and that includes the Covid year where they only had 2,303 HR's hit.
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They were playing with a bouncy ball in 2019 and f*** with the ball to create the offensive outcomes they desire since then and we are supposed to care about artificially inflated home run totals from steroids? Silliness to me. Most of the league was using imo
 
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EverettMike said:
He was absolutely about to go in before he demanded no one vote for him. He would have went in the following year.

But while he wants to make it a political thing, Schilling is far from a slam dunk purely on his playing merits. To me he's a fringe case. If he's the line where people don't get in that's not a bad thing for people who want the Hall to hold back on letting in too many.
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I probably give more weight to certain guys who have a distinguished postseason career. That might not be fair but it stands out to me.
 
Johnnyduke said:
I probably give more weight to certain guys who have a distinguished postseason career. That might not be fair but it stands out to me.
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I think it's both fair to give players extra credit for the post-season while also not penalizing players for a lack of playoff success.

Some guys never get a chance to play in October, and some guys are victims of the vagaries of small sample sizes. But I have no issue with citing Schilling's post-season work as part of his Hall of Fame resume. However, I will add if you feel you need to cite post-season success as part of a player's case that's proof they're a fringe player. ie Jack Morris who never ever would have sniffed the Hall without that Game 7.

(Before someone intentionally misreads this, Schilling was a much better pitcher. I'm just making the point that playoff success really only gets used for guys who can't get in based solely on the regular season, which is the most important standard.)
 
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