Prospect Info: 2024 NHL Entry Draft Discussion

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

I also think it's time to condense picks for better picks. Quality over quantity now.

 

[Dead Coyote]

Once media scouts learn that Kiviharju’s Dad works for us they’ll all mock him to us in all the mocks. It’s because nobody wants their own team to have the subsix foot blueliner without elite speed. And nobody wants to mock him to loud fanbases with lots of angry fans. Arizona is the perfect spot to hide him so you can get him off your board and just say “AZ needs defense and his dad is a scout for them” and move on.

So get ready to see his name at our pick pretty much every time. Personally, I’m not interested in him and I don’t think the Coyotes would be either. Find me one undersized player with average skating that BA has ever picked.

I think it would be a mistake to not have any interest in the sub six feet skater who was 2nd in scoring on his team as a fresh 16yo and 3rd on his team in scoring as a fresh 15yo in the U18s. He's injured, is playing in a men's league, and doesn't have the entire package. Very easy to see that he'll probably drop at least a few spots come draft time like Chychrun did.

I'd probably be happy with most of the D in this draft because I think it's a strong draft for D, even though I mostly want a center.

But Kiviharju is probably one of, if not the best D in this draft based on *past* years. Yes, he hasn't been doing great this year. And we know BA likes to draft the big boys. But I would hope that they at least consider him considering his pedigree. A year ago there were talks for him in the top 5 or 1st overall. You don't get that without some serious skill, and he does have that.

 

[rt]

I think it would be a mistake to not have any interest in the sub six feet skater who was 2nd in scoring on his team as a fresh 16yo and 3rd on his team in scoring as a fresh 15yo in the U18s. He's injured, is playing in a men's league, and doesn't have the entire package. Very easy to see that he'll probably drop at least a few spots come draft time like Chychrun did.

I'd probably be happy with most of the D in this draft because I think it's a strong draft for D, even though I mostly want a center.

But Kiviharju is probably one of, if not the best D in this draft based on *past* years. Yes, he hasn't been doing great this year. And we know BA likes to draft the big boys. But I would hope that they at least consider him considering his pedigree. A year ago there were talks for him in the top 5 or 1st overall. You don't get that without some serious skill, and he does have that.

He’d be small for a forward. For a D he’s tiny. I want superlative skating speed and jaw dropping production from any tiny player. Otherwise I have zero interest.

This is coming from a guy who has Zach Benson 3rd or 4th overall last draft.

 

[Dead Coyote]

He’d be small for a forward. For a D he’s tiny. I want superlative skating speed and jaw dropping production from any tiny player. Otherwise I have zero interest.

This is coming from a guy who has Zach Benson 3rd or 4th overall last draft.

He's 5'10. not 5'8. And if 19pts in 17 games and 20 pts in 22 games isn't jaw dropping production as a freshly turned 16yo in U18 and U20 leagues specifically than I don't know what to say, Kid pretty much can't be compared to anyone else because he's the only 15yo to put up those kind of numbers. Playing in an U20 league.

Nemec is pretty similar at Kiviharju's age, as he did play U20 domestically at 15, and internationally put up similar points and Ville Pokka, who was 17, put up similar but slightly worse points in the U20 league and worse points internationally- other than that there really isn't anyone who's done that. And Kiviharju has similar points per game as Nemec did when he was 15 internationally. Not saying he'll be as good as Nemec but if you discount him based on his flaws I think you end up with another Lane Hutson situation, where all evidence points contrary to what you're saying. Then again I could be wrong and he could be a bust! But I always find it pretty hard to ignore that kind of production.

 

[rt]

He's 5'10. not 5'8.

A 5’10 D is the same as a 5’8 F.

And if 19pts in 17 games and 20 pts in 22 games isn't jaw dropping production as a freshly turned 16yo in U18 and U20 leagues specifically than I don't know what to say, Kid pretty much can't be compared to anyone else because he's the only 15yo to put up those kind of numbers. Playing in an U20 league.

I’m confused. He’s a January birthday. You’re saying his u20 production as a 16/17yo and as a 15/16 year old was very impressive. Last year and two years ago. Yeah, I 100% agree. It was very impressive production for his age.

if you discount him based on his flaws I think you end up with another Lane Hutson situation, where all evidence points contrary to what you're saying...

I’m still a Lane Hutson skeptic.

The thing about Kiviharju is that he’s tiny for a defenseman, he doesn’t have special skating that negates the major size issues.

We’ll see what he does production-wise this season. It’s going to be tough in a men’s league as a young and small defender. It’s always going to be tough for him though. Which is the point.

I don’t want Finnish league play. And he’s looked good in the international play I’ve seen. But not enough to make up for the size and lack of elite speed. But it’s November. He might blow the lid off the WJC and go back to Liiga and become the draft story of the second half of this season. Very possible. And if that happens, I’ll be a supporter.

I’m not a guy who dislikes short players for being short. Never have been. I’m Benson’s number one fan.

 

[lanky]

This talk of Kiviharju reminds me of Heinola.
These guys can certainly be excellent NHLers. It seems that NHL coaches are reluctant to give them opportunities though.

 

[Dead Coyote]

This talk of Kiviharju reminds me of Heinola.
These guys can certainly be excellent NHLers. It seems that NHL coaches are reluctant to give them opportunities though.

Which is part of why I rate Kiviharju highly, because he's already in mens leagues and getting significant time before even being drafted. He was playing near 30m a game as a 16/17 yo. Clearly his coaches currently like him. Might not mean much in the grand scheme of things.

A 5’10 D is the same as a 5’8 F.

I’m confused. He’s a January birthday. You’re saying his u20 production as a 16/17yo and as a 15/16 year old was very impressive. Last year and two years ago. Yeah, I 100% agree. It was very impressive production for his age.


The thing about Kiviharju is that he’s tiny for a defenseman, he doesn’t have special skating that negates the major size issues.

We’ll see what he does production-wise this season. It’s going to be tough in a men’s league as a young and small defender. It’s always going to be tough for him though. Which is the point.


I’m not a guy who dislikes short players for being short. Never have been. I’m Benson’s number one fan.

Heavily disagree with bolded. Especially as a 17yo. Size is better, but plenty of D have shown that it's possible to succeed without size or skating. Yeah those are some of the most valuable traits and highly sought after but it's not the end all be all. I just don't agree with saying that if you're a tiny defenseman you need to have special skating that makes up for it. His skating isn't bad enough to be a huge detriment anyways, it's his strength that's a question mark for the NHL. Some of the top D in the NHL are his size and I don't think their skating is so much better than his. I'm not even saying he's going to be that good, but I just don't think he should be written off solely because of size and skating. At worst I think he's one of the best PPQB specialists we've seen recently.

 

[rt]

Which is part of why I rate Kiviharju highly, because he's already in mens leagues and getting significant time before even being drafted. He was playing near 30m a game as a 16/17 yo. Clearly his coaches currently like him. Might not mean much in the grand scheme of things.

It’s helps his case for sure.

Heavily disagree with bolded.

NHL D are on average taller than NHL F.

… plenty of D have shown that it's possible to succeed without size or skating.

Exception rather than the rule.

I just don't agree with saying that if you're a tiny defenseman you need to have special skating that makes up for it.

I think you do. 99% of the time anyway.

 

[Dead Coyote]

NHL D are on average taller than NHL F.

Exception rather than the rule.

I think you do. 99% of the time anyway.

1. Doesn't matter
2. Becoming less and less rare and significant portion of NHL players are able to be productive without it, not so much a rule or an exception to me, but it's clearly not as big a setback as it was
3. I absolutely hate big lumbering slow as molasses skaters who have awful top speed and acceleration, and I value skating very highly because if you can skate well you're probably going to be useful at some level. It's why I was so hard on Will Smith last year and was so high on Moore. I didn't think Smiths production increase was good enough to justify his lack of skating ability because I saw Strome 2.0 and didn't think he'd be able to fix it- skating is also very hard to improve relative to your other skills.

But at least from what I've seen Kiviharju isn't that bad of a skater. He isn't particularly slow, he just isn't particularly fast. His top speed leaves a little to be desired and his acceleration isn't amazing either but his edgework and agility both seem fine to me, and because he's also a defenseman I can give him more of a pass because you can rely more on positioning than a forward can. I don't generally see him as the type to pinch a ton either or make bad pinches which lends itself to my thought that I don't think he needs those tools to succeed in the NHL. Would definitely make him better because he could probably be elite offensively if he did have them but his production is something I can't ignore even with skating issues.

And honestly if all he does is make a breakout pass in his zone, play well on the point, and QB a powerplay I think he still puts up like 40 points a year doing that and I'm perfectly fine with drafting that in the top 15. He doesn't really need skating ability to do any of those things super well. His hands, vision, and IQ are already very high to me. If he manages to bulk up, put some weight on, and strengthen his core he should be able to handle NHL forwards defensively. That was the main concern I had about him because if he doesn't have that strength he's something of a liability when he doesn't have the puck on his stick. Which is somewhat alleviated by his IQ. It's a lot easier to do that than it is to get better at skating IMO, especially when he's as young as he is. Will probably go through some of that just getting older and bigger. His skating? Who f***ing knows. But I do know his potential is off the freaking charts because if he improves his strength and ability to handle forwards off the puck he instantly becomes a dual threat at any point in time and an excellent special teams player. And if he improves his speed he has the potential to be the next Karlsson.

So yeah. I don't personally think when I weigh his potential versus what he needs to work on that he's in a bad position.

As it is right now, I wouldn't draft him in the top 5. I'd consider drafting him top 10 but probably wouldn't. And I'd draft him top 15 for sure most likely. I have probably 3 or 4 other d-men above him, cause it's a great class for D. But as a prime suspect for a faller and with that kind of potential I absolutely would be open to drafting him if he falls. Ultimately BA will just go with whoever his guy is so it probably doesn't matter what I think, we clearly have different philosophies on drafting. And he's probably a lot smarter than me, and it seems to be working out for us, so you know I can't be unhappy with that. But personally yeah, if he performs better than he has while/before being injured than I would have to start thinking long and hard if he's in my top 10 or not.

 

[rt]

Konsta Helenius now leads his Liiga team in goals and is tied first in points. 8 goals, 16 points in 22 games.

He’s a smaller center/winger hybrid type. Not exactly our prototypical pick, given his height limitations. But that’s unbelievable production. He should definitely be on our radar.

 

[MIGs Dog]

I haven't posted on this thread yet, but since the playoffs look slim these days, I'm channeling BA when I say "show me Russians that are >6'2"." Can any of them play center?

 

[rt]

I haven't posted on this thread yet, but since the playoffs look slim these days, I'm channeling BA when I say "show me Russians that are >6'2"." Can any of them play center?

Nope. Not in the 1st round. Surin can play C and is like a Zegras mixed with Max Domi level of aways trying crazy stuff but also very violent and mean and dirty. But he’s like 5’11 maybe.

Chernyshov is like 6’3 and is a classic powerforward. Quintessential power winger. Not a C.

They get smaller and less like BA picks after that.

 

[Matias Maccete]

Let's just get Demidov. Easy peasy

 

[rt]

Let's just get Demidov. Easy peasy

Doesn’t fit the criteria though. Smallish winger. I think I’d probably make an exception though. Haha.

 

[lanky]

Guys that fit the criteria nicely...

1st round
Silayev (LD/RD)
Levshunov (RD)
Jiricek (RD)
Yakemchuk (RD)
Lindstrom (C)
Chernyshov (RW)
Letourneau (C)

Early 2nd
Jecho (C)
Emery (RD)
Elick (RD)

 

[Matias Maccete]

Doesn’t fit the criteria though. Smallish winger. I think I’d probably make an exception though. Haha.

Lol with his highlights hell yeah.

 

[rt]

Lol with his highlights hell yeah.

100% I was kidding haha. He’s definitely top 5. Maybe top 2.

Guys that fit the criteria nicely...

1st round
Silayev (LD/RD)
Levshunov (RD)
Jiricek (RD)
Yakemchuk (RD)
Lindstrom (C)
Chernyshov (RW)
Letourneau (C)

Early 2nd
Jecho (C)
Emery (RD)
Elick (RD)

You’re basically just listing all my favorites for this draft. Haha.

 

[Dead Coyote]

Jiricek would be my favorite that I think we might have a chance at getting.

Yakemchuk, Cherynyshov,Cayden Lindstrom, and Liam Greentree are other guys that I think BA might have his eyes on. I think Simon Zether also might be someone to keep an eye on. No success in the SHL but good point total in the U20 league and he's a big center.

 

[lanky]

Among the seven guys I listed above (as 1sts) that are a good fit with Bill's tendencies, only one falls out of the top 12 for this publication.

2024 NHL Draft Ranking Top 32 – November - HockeyProspect.com

HockeyProspect.com is pleased to release our first 2024 NHL Draft Ranking of the season. This list is a top 64 ranking with the top 32 available free and the

hockeyprospect.com

 

[rt]

Among the seven guys I listed above (as 1sts) that are a good fit with Bill's tendencies, only one falls out of the top 12 for this publication.

2024 NHL Draft Ranking Top 32 – November - HockeyProspect.com

HockeyProspect.com is pleased to release our first 2024 NHL Draft Ranking of the season. This list is a top 64 ranking with the top 32 available free and the

hockeyprospect.com

These are the same guys who absolutely loved our last draft.

 

[TheLegend]

RIP Jiricek

 

[Freddy Sjostrom]

Wow

 

[rt]

After watching more London and Calgary games recently, I’ve officially got Yakemchuk ahead of Dickinson. Which I never thought would be the case. But I’m there.

I haven’t seen enough of Levshunov or Silayev this season. But those are the other two name I’ve got in competition with Yakemchuk for top blueliner in the draft on my list.

 

[hbk]

After watching more London and Calgary games recently, I’ve officially got Yakemchuk ahead of Dickinson. Which I never thought would be the case. But I’m there.

I haven’t seen enough of Levshunov or Silayev this season. But those are the other two name I’ve got in competition with Yakemchuk for top blueliner in the draft on my list.

I have tried to watch London a dozen times and 90% of the time u don’t even notice Dickenson. He’s solid and safe. No wow factor for me.

 

[rt]

I have tried to watch London a dozen times and 90% of the time u don’t even notice Dickenson. He’s solid and safe. No wow factor for me.

He flashes some really high end skill now and again though. It’s in there. He’s dropped my jaw a few times. But it’s really only flashes. Yakemchuk makes me laugh out loud in a good way several times per game.