2024-25 Roster Thread #1: The Beginninging

[Juicy Pop]

They just don’t value offense. Talent. I dunno.

I watched the Danny presser. St Louis keeps being brought up.

“we don’t need those superstars” same old bullshit.

McDavid. Matthews. Bedard. Crosby. Ovechkin. Kucherov.

They better hope to hell Michkov is in that tier.

The problem I have with the St. Louis approach is that, even if everything works out, you get maybe 2 if not 3 years to really press for a Cup and then it all falls apart until we're back in the same state from 10 years ago.

Maybe you do win that Cup, but then you have a superstar in Michkov that you can't build around because the mentality of the org won't allow for the necessary steps to do so.

 

[freakydallas13]

Funny thing, what sank him in Vancouver was protecting his team:

What arguably hurt the Canucks most was Tortorella’s rash attempt to charge into the dressing room of the Calgary Flames on Jan. 18. He was incensed by Flames Coach Bob Hartley’s decision to put out the enforcers Brian McGrattan and Kevin Westgarth for the opening face-off.

Yeah, something tells me it was actually because he was being shitty to players:

 

[Beef Invictus]

On what team was there a "full blown revolt?"
His biggest critic was Dubinsky, who was pissed when he was demoted to 3C at 31 and was then out of the league a year later.
He got rid of Johansen and four teams later, who was right?

Torts reputation is overblown, probably b/c he has a habit of blowing off stupid, asshole reporters - and we have a couple here who'll probably get pissed at him when he gives them that "you really didn't ask something that stupid" look.

TB, NYR, Vancouver. All player revolts.

Yes, even in TB. His players f***ing despised him. He was fired in Vancouver in large part because players went to management to complain that he wasn't doing his job. Not enough practice days, when there were practices he was either not there or uninvolved, which rubbed guys the wrong way since he'd yell and scream about the players not putting in effort while he put in none. "Not doing his basic job" is a trend that continues through to now.

His reputation is completely earned. I'm not even getting into the press stuff. There's no need. That's all totally irrelevant. In the actual hockey aspect of his job, he sucks.

You are trying to deny that players hate the guy who they voted as the most hated coach in the league; yes, over Babcock. Up there with you trying to pretend Tortorella is offensively minded, despite that never being the case and the coach himself openly admitting he has no serious understanding of offense. He's fully a liability. He drives talent away and provides no positives. Hell, even you give the credit for any defensive progress to Shaw. Makes sense since the guy spouted before his first season here started that he wouldn't really be doing actual Xs and Os coaching and he hated talking to players.

Anyway, could you please circle back and explain how 2011 Boston only had "0 or 1" elite players? At least do that one.

 

[deadhead]

ES points ()
forwards: Lucic (48), Krejci (50), Bergeron (43), Horton (45), Recci (30), Ryder (27), Marchand (32), Campbell (23), Wheeler (25), Seguin (19), S Thorton (20)
d-men: Chara, Seidenberg, Boychuck, Ference, McQuaid, Kaberle

 

[FlyerNutter]

The problem I have with the St. Louis approach is that, even if everything works out, you get maybe 2 if not 3 years to really press for a Cup and then it all falls apart until we're back in the same state from 10 years ago.

Maybe you do win that Cup, but then you have a superstar in Michkov that you can't build around because the mentality of the org won't allow for the necessary steps to do so.

We’ve done this approach. With Giroux, and to a lesser extent Couturier.

It’s yielded a boring ass product, while young exciting stars are infused into other clubs yearly.

In terms of success, it’s a decade of meh.

The Flyers are gaslighting this fanbase into some notion what they are doing is new. It’s not. They lucked into Matvei 20 years after lucking into Claude. That’s not a plan to anything we haven’t seen before.

 

[Hextallent63]

The problem I have with the St. Louis approach is that, even if everything works out, you get maybe 2 if not 3 years to really press for a Cup and then it all falls apart until we're back in the same state from 10 years ago.

Maybe you do win that Cup, but then you have a superstar in Michkov that you can't build around because the mentality of the org won't allow for the necessary steps to do so.

Are you from the New England area?

 

[Juicy Pop]

Are you from the New England area?

If that is Torts speaking them I'd be more confident in the team.

 

[Beef Invictus]

ES points ()
forwards: Lucic (48), Krejci (50), Bergeron (43), Horton (45), Recci (30), Ryder (27), Marchand (32), Campbell (23), Wheeler (25), Seguin (19), S Thorton (20)
d-men: Chara, Seidenberg, Boychuck, Ference, McQuaid, Kaberle

Just so we are clear, you are insisting that Thomas (Vezina Winner, 2x total, put on a Finals run matched all-time only by Parent and Hasek), Bergeron (4th in Selke, in a run of finishing top 5 in Selke voting 14 years in a row and a year away from winning it), and Chara (Recent Norris winner over Lidstrom and in the midst of being perenially top 3) were not elite players?

You know, you really don't have to do this. Nobody is making you type these things

 

[trostol]

Just so we are clear, you are insisting that Thomas (Vezina Winner, 2x total, put on a Finals run matched all-time only by Parent and Hasek), Bergeron (4th in Selke, in a run of finishing top 5 in Selke voting 14 years in a row and a year away from winning it), and Chara (Recent Norris winner over Lidstrom and in the midst of being perenially top 3) were not elite players?

You know, you really don't have to do this. Nobody is making you type these things

maybe someone is...maybe its Bob Clarke

 

[VladDrag]

I am extremely interested to see how it compares to anything that uses Sznajder’s data.

I use Sznajder’s data with a grain of salt tbh. I just don’t think logging ~20% of ice times (in some instances) is indicative of that players total season effort.

The outliers are probably and representative (McDavid for example), but I think there will be some nuanced missed……

Also I saw this too. I did not compare the 23-24 Sznajder data to the data herein: Blueline Traversals

Probably will later

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Whos gonna have better rookie season? Luchanko or Patrick??

 

[mr figgles]

The only reason Torts lasted long in New York and Columbus is because they did exactly what the Flyers are doing and built teams to his specifications thinking it would get results. It did not.

And, let’s not compare Torts to Laviolette. Since the salary cap was put in place, Lavy has a cup and 3 total finals appearances to Torts’ 0. He has won 16 rounds in the playoffs to Torts’ 4. Tort’s Rangers didn’t make the finals until he was canned.

 

[freakydallas13]

The only reason Torts lasted long in New York and Columbus is because they did exactly what the Flyers are doing and built teams to his specifications thinking it would get results. It did not.

And, let’s not compare Torts to Laviolette. Since the salary cap was put in place, Lavy has a cup and 3 total finals appearances to Torts’ 0. He has won 16 rounds in the playoffs to Torts’ 4. Tort’s Rangers didn’t make the finals until he was canned.

Yeah but if you arbitrarily ignore his Vancouver stint, Torts' tenures look longer than Lavi's when you don't arbitrarily ignore Lavi's shortest stint.

Statistics are my passion.

 

[deadhead]

We’ve done this approach. With Giroux, and to a lesser extent Couturier.

It’s yielded a boring ass product, while young exciting stars are infused into other clubs yearly.

In terms of success, it’s a decade of meh.

The Flyers are gaslighting this fanbase into some notion what they are doing is new. It’s not. They lucked into Matvei 20 years after lucking into Claude. That’s not a plan to anything we haven’t seen before.

No, we didn't. Holmgren could have after the Carter/Richards trade, but refused.
Instead, we had a handful of young players with veteran patches around them for a decade.

 

[NYCFlyer]

It's been a while but I see it's still Deady against the world. 50k+ posts in ten years. That's very impressive.

 

[NYCFlyer]

Wow. Beef with 130k posts in 15 years! Damn

 

[deadhead]

Just so we are clear, you are insisting that Thomas (Vezina Winner, 2x total, put on a Finals run matched all-time only by Parent and Hasek), Bergeron (4th in Selke, in a run of finishing top 5 in Selke voting 14 years in a row and a year away from winning it), and Chara (Recent Norris winner over Lidstrom and in the midst of being perenially top 3) were not elite players?

You know, you really don't have to do this. Nobody is making you type these things

Most Cup winners have hot goalies.
Bergeron never had 50 ES points in a season. Great defensive center but elite?
Chara was a huge, durable minutes eater. Had a very good 7 season stretch of excellence.
Norris voting:
2007-08: 3rd
2008-09: 1st
2009-10: 8th
2010-11: 3rd
2011-12: 3rd
2012-13: 5th
2013-14: 2nd

That's very good, but was he elite?
Elite by definition is a small group of players.
For example at center, McDavid, McKinnon, Matthews. Who else qualifies?

 

[Curufinwe]

Whos gonna have better rookie season? Luchanko or Patrick??

We can only hope Luchanko gets thru his first NHL October without getting his brain bashed. As for production I would doubt Lucanko would beat 30 points (13 G, 17 A, 8 PPP) in 73 GP on a Torts coached team.

 

[FlyerNutter]

No, we didn't. Holmgren could have after the Carter/Richards trade, but refused.
Instead, we had a handful of young players with veteran patches around them for a decade.

lol it’s the exact same thing man

With a worse core group of forwards than Hextall had.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Most Cup winners have hot goalies.
Bergeron never had 50 ES points in a season. Great defensive center but elite?
Chara was a huge, durable minutes eater. Had a very good 7 season stretch of excellence.
Norris voting:
2007-08: 3rd
2008-09: 1st
2009-10: 8th
2010-11: 3rd
2011-12: 3rd
2012-13: 5th
2013-14: 2nd

That's very good, but was he elite?
Elite by definition is a small group of players.
For example at center, McDavid, McKinnon, Matthews. Who else qualifies?

Both of them were on the shortlist for best at their position in the league. That's elite.

I mean who the hell finishes that high in Norris voting year after year without being elite? Who the hell finishes top 5 (and mostly top 3) in Selke voting for 14 years?

They're both no-doubt HOF players!!

 

[Curufinwe]

Just so we are clear, you are insisting that Thomas (Vezina Winner, 2x total, put on a Finals run matched all-time only by Parent and Hasek), Bergeron (4th in Selke, in a run of finishing top 5 in Selke voting 14 years in a row and a year away from winning it), and Chara (Recent Norris winner over Lidstrom and in the midst of being perenially top 3) were not elite players?

You know, you really don't have to do this. Nobody is making you type these things

My god. Those were the 1G, 1D and 1C every coach dreams about having in the playoffs. Bergeron had 20 points at +15, Chara played 27:39 a night, and Thomas had a .940 SV% on their Cup run.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Bergeron never had 50 ES points in a season. Great defensive center but elite?

@FBI @TheHague

 

[ajgoal]

@FBI @TheHague

All we need is for that guy from the Bruins forum to show up and argue with him.

 

[Curufinwe]

Opening night defense if Seeler can't go?

Sanheim-Risto
York-Drysdale
Zamula-Johnson

 

[Beef Invictus]

My god. Those were the 1G, 1D and 1C every coach dreams about having in the playoffs. Bergeron had 20 points at +15, Chara played 27:39 a night, and Thomas had a .940 SV% on their Cup run.

Not elite! Apparently!