2024-25 Roster Thread #1: The Beginninging

[JojoTheWhale]

OH MY GOD I MISSED THE CHARA THING TOO @SuperFriends

 

[Starat327]

Most Cup winners have hot goalies.
Bergeron never had 50 ES points in a season. Great defensive center but elite?
Chara was a huge, durable minutes eater. Had a very good 7 season stretch of excellence.
Norris voting:
2007-08: 3rd
2008-09: 1st
2009-10: 8th
2010-11: 3rd
2011-12: 3rd
2012-13: 5th
2013-14: 2nd

That's very good, but was he elite?
Elite by definition is a small group of players.
For example at center, McDavid, McKinnon, Matthews. Who else qualifies?

If anyone ever needed a good reason to put this man on the "i dont want to see his posts anymore" list -- this is about as good as it comes.

I dont know what world you can classify Bergeron as anything but elite, even if elite is by nature a subjective term.

 

[freakydallas13]

@FBI @TheHague

It's easier to compare Luchanko and Bergeron when you don't think Bergeron was elite defensively.

Bergeron and big Z? Not elite. But Luchanko's speed? You best believe that is elite.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Wow. Beef with 130k posts in 15 years! Damn

@Beef Invictus is our foundational pillar...

 

[freakydallas13]

If anyone ever needed a good reason to put this man on the "i dont want to see his posts anymore" list -- this is about as good as it comes.

I dont know what world you can classify Bergeron as anything but elite, even if elite is by nature a subjective term.

When you constantly have to realign your world view to support whatever decisions the Flyers make (no matter how stupid the decisions are), you see posts like this.

 

[Appleyard]

ES points ()
forwards: Lucic (48), Krejci (50), Bergeron (43), Horton (45), Recci (30), Ryder (27), Marchand (32), Campbell (23), Wheeler (25), Seguin (19), S Thorton (20)
d-men: Chara, Seidenberg, Boychuck, Ference, McQuaid, Kaberle

That was in a lower scoring era of hockey.

That season they had FOUR of the top 29 EV scorers in the NHL lmao.

They had 2x #1 Dmen... including a Norris winner and one of the best Dmen of his generation...
Kaberle had been the #1 in Toronto and was a few seasons removed from a 70 point, 28 minute a night season... and was universally regarded as one of the top ~20-25 Dmen in the league from ~2000-2011.

And they had one of the best goalies in the world.

 

[Curufinwe]

Did they take Couturier off the PP entirely to make room for Luchanko?

 

[Starat327]

It's easier to compare Luchanko and Bergeron when you don't think Bergeron was elite defensively.

Bergeron and big Z? Not elite. But Luchanko's speed? You best believe that is elite.

Bergeron wouldnt have gotten a 9 game trial on this flyers. His defensive game isnt at the same level of Luch's.

 

[NYCFlyer]

When you constantly have to realign your world view to support whatever decisions the Flyers make (no matter how stupid the decisions are), you see posts like this.

Have you guys figured out Deadheads connection to the team yet?

 

[ajgoal]

@Beef Invictus is our foundational pillar...

Be nice.

 

[Fire Tortorella]

Did they take Couturier off the PP entirely to make room for Luchanko?

Yes.

PP1 - Drysdale, Michkov, Tippett, Frost (net front/low), TK (bumper)

PP2 - Zamula, Foerster, Luchenko, Brink (bumper), Farabee (net front/low)

I don't love Frost in that position but if it's anything like pre-season at least they were using the down low guy more as a passing option than a true net front player.

 

[ponder719]

Most Cup winners have hot goalies.
Bergeron never had 50 ES points in a season. Great defensive center but elite?
Chara was a huge, durable minutes eater. Had a very good 7 season stretch of excellence.
Norris voting:
2007-08: 3rd
2008-09: 1st
2009-10: 8th
2010-11: 3rd
2011-12: 3rd
2012-13: 5th
2013-14: 2nd

That's very good, but was he elite?
Elite by definition is a small group of players.
For example at center, McDavid, McKinnon, Matthews. Who else qualifies?

I will admit to engaging in some devil's advocacy from time to time, but this beggars belief, deady. Thomas was on an unbelievable heater, and was a top 3 goalie at the position at that time. Bergeron and Chara are first-ballot lock Hall of Famers in the prime of their careers. If your definition of elite doesn't include them, it is so narrow as to be utterly worthless.

 

[FlyerNutter]

It is cute that the Flyers would dare to compare themselves to the Bruins.

Not that Danny is doing it, but I’d chuckle.

This team is the Sundin era Maple Leafs, or Buffalo Sabres - nothing more. Bottom 3 managed franchise in the NHL.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Koloslov & Makiniemi are waiver exempt. Ersson, Fedotov, & Petersen aren’t waiver exempt.

Gotcha. If Fedotov is struggling I doubt someone would claim him at his salary if he's not showing anything, but I could see Ersson getting claimed. Probably means that Kolosov won't be up unless there is an injury I would guess.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I think we also have a difficult time putting players like Krejci into context. The peak of his perception was early in his career. Not the most consistent from year to year during part of what should have been his expected prime. Not really flashy in any physical talent sort of a way. Much more of a playmaker than a scorer and never got the kind of star credit he should have for the high end playmaking.

Not a HoFer. But a very, very good player.

 

[ponder719]

Have you guys figured out Deadheads connection to the team yet?

Hopium dealer?

 

[Starat327]

I think we also have a difficult time putting players like Krejci into context. The peak of his perception was early in his career. Not the most consistent from year to year. Not really flashy in any physical talent sort of a way. Much more of a playmaker than a scorer and never got the kind of star credit he should have for the high end playmaking.

Not a HoFer. But a very, very good player.

Krejci was a key memeber of several of may fantasy championship teams over the years.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

The problem I have with the St. Louis approach is that, even if everything works out, you get maybe 2 if not 3 years to really press for a Cup and then it all falls apart until we're back in the same state from 10 years ago.

Maybe you do win that Cup, but then you have a superstar in Michkov that you can't build around because the mentality of the org won't allow for the necessary steps to do so.

That's kind of how it is though unless you wind up with the truly generational elite talent of a Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid, etc. It's why there aren't a ton of dynasties. Regardless of how your team is constructed, whether it is through the draft, free agencies, trades, or more likely a combination of those things with a ton of luck sprinkled in, the chances are that a lot of those guys won't be the same guys 2-3 years later. With the salary cap and injuries and so forth you're lucky to have a five year run of truly competitive hockey unless you land the aforementioned generational talent. 31/32 teams fail every year, that's why you take your shot when you can and that's why the "all you need is to get in" mentality exists.

I would gladly take a single Cup with Michkov (or anyone) even if it means we suck for the following ten years. Yes, obviously we'd all prefer to win every year and be in the mix every year, but getting one is good enough. Worry about it later. The odds are forever against you winning every year no matter how good your team is.

 

[Appleyard]

I think we also have a difficult time putting players like Krejci into context. The peak of his perception was early in his career. Not the most consistent from year to year during part of what should have been his expected prime. Not really flashy in any physical talent sort of a way. Much more of a playmaker than a scorer and never got the kind of star credit he should have for the high end playmaking.

Not a HoFer. But a very, very good player.

He was certainly one of the best ~20-25 Cs in the NHL over his prime from 2008-2019 on balance.

 

[renberg]

Yes.

PP1 - Drysdale, Michkov, Tippett, Frost (net front/low), TK (bumper)

PP2 - Zamula, Foerster, Luchenko, Brink (bumper), Farabee (net front/low)

I don't love Frost in that position but if it's anything like pre-season at least they were using the down low guy more as a passing option than a true net front player.

Putting Luchenko on PP2 is BS. That's Couturier's spot.
There might be something going on with SC. Perhaps he's banged up already but there have been several articles in the press noting that SC is not playing up to speed. Briere said yesterday that he felt the need to tell some of the veterans to pick up their games. It could be that SC's speed is off but he's never been a burner on the ice. Most likely it's Tortorella ragging on SC with his usual head games crap.

 

[deadhead]

If anyone ever needed a good reason to put this man on the "i dont want to see his posts anymore" list -- this is about as good as it comes.

I dont know what world you can classify Bergeron as anything but elite, even if elite is by nature a subjective term.

Only points matter, don't bother to tell me that a Flyer is good defensively, bad drafting.

Oh, Bergeron is elite b/c he was a great defensive center even though he only scored at a 2C pace!

Hmm, so is defense that important? If so, what's wrong with a HC stressing defense?

 

[Curufinwe]

Yes.

PP1 - Drysdale, Michkov, Tippett, Frost (net front/low), TK (bumper)

PP2 - Zamula, Foerster, Luchenko, Brink (bumper), Farabee (net front/low)

I don't love Frost in that position but if it's anything like pre-season at least they were using the down low guy more as a passing option than a true net front player.

Torts is such a stupid

 

[deadhead]

The term "elite" is overused, similar to how "brilliant" or "genius" is overused.
Elite means just that, not very good for a few years, but the very best.

No one argues whether McDavid is elite. It's obvious.
The way Orr or Gretzky were elite.

Next tier are elite players where it's not quite as certain, in today's NHL, McKinnon, Matthews at center, Ovechkin at forward, Makar on defense, etc. Clearly better than their peers, but not all time greats. For example, Ovechkin is a great goal scorer, but rest of his game isn't special. Crosby is a special center, but you don't mention him in the same breath with McDavid. HOF guys, but not in the GOAT conversation.

Third tier are really good players who are border line elite, but have some flaw or limitation. Toews, Kopitar, Barkov, Kane, Doughty, etc.

Four tier are very good players who were never really dominant players, Giroux is a good example.

Fifth tier are very good players who couldn't sustain that level of play over a decade or longer.

You can build Cup winners around 3rd, 4th and 5th tier players and a little luck.
It's easier if you have a Tier 2 player. but still only a dozen or so in the league at any one time.
Maybe one team a decade has a Tier 1 player.

 

[BernieParent]

Most Cup winners have hot goalies.
Bergeron never had 50 ES points in a season. Great defensive center but elite?
Chara was a huge, durable minutes eater. Had a very good 7 season stretch of excellence.
Norris voting:
2007-08: 3rd
2008-09: 1st
2009-10: 8th
2010-11: 3rd
2011-12: 3rd
2012-13: 5th
2013-14: 2nd

That's very good, but was he elite?
Elite by definition is a small group of players.
For example at center, McDavid, McKinnon, Matthews. Who else qualifies?

Point well taken, dead. "Elite" gets tossed around far too easily by most everyone -- Cates? -- and unless there is some generally accepted criteria, we should put a moratorium on it because it just becomes another superlative.

 

[Starat327]

Only points matter, don't bother to tell me that a Flyer is good defensively, bad drafting.

Oh, Bergeron is elite b/c he was a great defensive center even though he only scored at a 2C pace!

Hmm, so is defense that important? If so, what's wrong with a HC stressing defense?

I appreciate the court jester showing up in timely fashion for us all to have a good laugh. Please, Carry on.