Blue Jays GDT: 2023 v13 | **WILDCARD SERIES GAME 2** Wed, Oct 4 | @ Min | 4:30pm ET/1:30pm PT | Berrios vs Gray

Who you got?


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GreytWun

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Sep 29, 2017
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Analytics is overthinking yourself and trying to win the game before it’s even been played. Some are good but some are useless and cost you.
 

MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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People keep saying unexpected struggles at the plate. Some people expected it, predicted it.

And then Atkins sat back the entire season without doing a single thing about it. Except calling up the young guys…

…who Schneider didn’t play at all down the stretch and into the playoffs. lol.

What a clusterf*** of a season.

You expected and predicted what happened with Guerrero and Kirk? Really?

You expected that the team would have a weird RISP thing relative to their pretty solid overall numbers?

They were 9th in MLB out of 30 teams in OPS+. The 'WORST OFFENSE EVER' reactions are so over the top.

The Mets and Padres had clusterf*** seasons. 89 wins and making the playoffs isn't a clusterf***, in any sense.

And if you're George Springer, the manager will keep playing you when you're 0-30. When you're Davis Schneider ... not so much.
 

Cloned

Begging for Bega
Aug 25, 2003
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You expected and predicted what happened with Guerrero and Kirk? Really?

You expected that the team would have a weird RISP thing relative to their pretty solid overall numbers?

They were 9th in MLB out of 30 teams in OPS+. The 'WORST OFFENSE EVER' reactions are so over the top.

The Mets and Padres had clusterf*** seasons. 89 wins and making the playoffs isn't a clusterf***, in any sense.

And if you're George Springer, the manager will keep playing you when you're 0-30. When you're Davis Schneider ... not so much.
I don’t recall saying the worst offense ever. I recall saying that losing over 100 RBI without properly replacing it was going to be a problem. I said they might need another power bat. I was told they had plenty of power.

It’s OK to say Atkins screwed up. He’s not Mike Gillis. He’s not even Brian Burke. He’s Kevin Cheveldayoff without the small payroll excuses.
 

MS

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I don’t recall saying the worst offense ever. I recall saying that losing over 100 RBI without properly replacing it was going to be a problem. I said they might need another power bat. I was told they had plenty of power.

It’s OK to say Atkins screwed up. He’s not Mike Gillis. He’s not even Brian Burke. He’s Kevin Cheveldayoff without the small payroll excuses.

They pretty clearly made mistakes.

But it wasn't a 'clusterf***'. Like, this sort of crazy overreaction does nothing to promote intelligent discussion.

Lost 100 RBI?

They replaced Teoscar (77), Gurriel (52), and Tapia (52) with Varsho (74), Kiermaier (22 in a half season) and Belt (23 in a half season). That's 60 RBI and it's mostly because two of the guys they signed were hurt.
 
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Cloned

Begging for Bega
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They pretty clearly made mistakes.

But it wasn't a 'clusterf***'. Like, this sort of crazy overreaction does nothing to promote intelligent discussion.

Lost 100 RBI?

They replaced Teoscar (77), Gurriel (52), and Tapia (52) with Varsho (74), Kiermaier (22 in a half season) and Belt (23 in a half season). That's 60 RBI and it's mostly because two of the guys they signed were hurt.
60 RBI isn’t nothing though. That would’ve pushed the run differential over 130 and more in line with the actual contenders this season.

It was a clusterf***.

They were expected to contend for the division and they got passed by a Baltimore team that they owned last season. Atkins gambled and lost. He should lose his job over it. That’s not a controversial statement IMO.
 

GreytWun

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Sep 29, 2017
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They pretty clearly made mistakes.

But it wasn't a 'clusterf***'. Like, this sort of crazy overreaction does nothing to promote intelligent discussion.

Lost 100 RBI?

They replaced Teoscar (77), Gurriel (52), and Tapia (52) with Varsho (74), Kiermaier (22 in a half season) and Belt (23 in a half season). That's 60 RBI and it's mostly because two of the guys they signed were hurt.

Teoscar and Gurriel were both injured last year too.
 
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MS

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60 RBI isn’t nothing though. That would’ve pushed the run differential over 130 and more in line with the actual contenders this season.

It was a clusterf***.

They were expected to contend for the division and they got passed by a Baltimore team that they owned last season. Atkins gambled and lost. He should lose his job over it. That’s not a controversial statement IMO.

But it isn't even 60 RBI. Once you adjust for injuries it's maybe 20 or 30, in exchange for a massive defensive improvement.

People were hoping for 95 wins and they finished with 89 and made the playoffs. Defense was the best in baseball, pitching was #7 FIP/#2 ERA, and the hitters were #9 in OPS+ but had the weird RISP thing happen. f*** me, people are spoiled. The Mets are a clusterf***. This was a 'mildly disappointing regular season'.

I would be firing Atkins right now, but not for the moves he made. I'd be firing him because I think that pitching decision in Game 2 was an absolute disaster and it pretty clearly falls on him, and I don't think you can move forward with trust from players/coaches in management after a f***up that bad. It made the whole team look like a laughingstock and a disjointed mess.

Teoscar and Gurriel were both injured last year too.

Not to the same extent. Both had ~500 PA while Kiermaier had 200 and Belt 250.
 
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Cloned

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But it isn't even 60 RBI. Once you adjust for injuries it's maybe 20 or 30, in exchange for a massive defensive improvement.

People were hoping for 95 wins and they finished with 89 and made the playoffs. Defense was the best in baseball, pitching was #7 FIP/#2 ERA, and the hitters were #9 in OPS+ but had the weird RISP thing happen. f*** me, people are spoiled. The Mets are a clusterf***. This was a 'mildly disappointing regular season'.

I would be firing Atkins right now, but not for the moves he made. I'd be firing him because I think that pitching decision in Game 2 was an absolute disaster and it pretty clearly falls on him, and I don't think you can move forward with trust from players/coaches in management after a f***up that bad. It made the whole team look like a laughingstock and a disjointed mess.



Not to the same extent. Both had ~500 PA while Kiermaier had 200 and Belt 250.
Atkins built a mid team. You can say the offense underperformed, but the pitching overperformed too. They finished probably right where they should’ve given the roster.

It’s not good enough. This isn’t Year 1.

The bad decision in game was just the cherry on top of this clusterf***.
 

MS

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Atkins built a mid team. You can say the offense underperformed, but the pitching overperformed too. They finished probably right where they should’ve given the roster.

It’s not good enough. This isn’t Year 1.

The bad decision in game was just the cherry on top of this clusterf***.

If you fire management every time you have a slightly disappointing 89-win playoff season, you'll have an absolute disaster of an organization. Not everything goes right every year. 4 teams in baseball had more than 92 wins.

The pitching would have been even better without the Manoah implosion. Being healthy obviously helped (although health might be connected to their process and the players they've targeted) but outside of Kikuchi and Mayza there aren't really any career years there so I don't think you could say they overachieved. They were good, legitimately.

The problem is the Berrios decision. It's undermined fan confidence and looking at the reactions of coaches/players it's undermined internal confidence as well, and someone's head has to roll for creating that mess.

And I'm just going to keep LOLing at calling an 89-win MLB season a clusterf***. It sounds completely disengaged from reality. Again, look at the Mets. That's a clusterf***. You sound like Mrs. Lovejoy.
 
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GoonieFace

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But it isn't even 60 RBI. Once you adjust for injuries it's maybe 20 or 30, in exchange for a massive defensive improvement.

People were hoping for 95 wins and they finished with 89 and made the playoffs. Defense was the best in baseball, pitching was #7 FIP/#2 ERA, and the hitters were #9 in OPS+ but had the weird RISP thing happen. f*** me, people are spoiled. The Mets are a clusterf***. This was a 'mildly disappointing regular season'.

I would be firing Atkins right now, but not for the moves he made. I'd be firing him because I think that pitching decision in Game 2 was an absolute disaster and it pretty clearly falls on him, and I don't think you can move forward with trust from players/coaches in management after a f***up that bad. It made the whole team look like a laughingstock and a disjointed mess.



Not to the same extent. Both had ~500 PA while Kiermaier had 200 and Belt 250.
You think Atkins made the decision to pull Berrios?
 

MS

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You think Atkins made the decision to pull Berrios?

Merrifield talked about the decision being 'taken out of the manager's hands' and Schneider talked about 'needing to trust the team you work with'.

I don't think he phoned the dugout and told Schneider to take Berrios out - it would have been done in a planning meeting with management/coaches/numbers guys - but he is the guy responsible for a decision-making process that forced the manager to make an absolutely f***ing awful move.
 

GoonieFace

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Merrifield talked about the decision being 'taken out of the manager's hands' and Schneider talked about 'needing to trust the team you work with'.

I don't think he phoned the dugout and told Schneider to take Berrios out - it would have been done in a planning meeting with management/coaches/numbers guys - but he is the guy responsible for a decision-making process that forced the manager to make an absolutely f***ing awful move.
No doubt they had multiple scenarios planned ahead of time like any team would. But there is no way on earth it wasn’t Schneiders final call on that considering how great Berrios was pitching.
 

MS

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No doubt they had multiple scenarios planned ahead of time like any team would. But there is no way on earth it wasn’t Schneiders final call on that considering how great Berrios was pitching.

I don't think it was. His reaction certainly didn't seem to indicate that it was, nor did Merrifield's comments. Guys like Wilmer have also said there was no way that Schneider made that call.
 

GoonieFace

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I don't think it was. His reaction certainly didn't seem to indicate that it was, nor did Merrifield's comments. Guys like Wilmer have also said there was no way that Schneider made that call.
Well if Wilner said it……I just have a hard time believing Schneider and Mattingly couldn’t figure it out and leave him in. I mean if he was ok through 3 innings and the plan was to pull him, so be it, but he was dealing.
 

Forgotusername

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May 17, 2016
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But it isn't even 60 RBI. Once you adjust for injuries it's maybe 20 or 30, in exchange for a massive defensive improvement.

People were hoping for 95 wins and they finished with 89 and made the playoffs. Defense was the best in baseball, pitching was #7 FIP/#2 ERA, and the hitters were #9 in OPS+ but had the weird RISP thing happen. f*** me, people are spoiled. The Mets are a clusterf***. This was a 'mildly disappointing regular season'.

I would be firing Atkins right now, but not for the moves he made. I'd be firing him because I think that pitching decision in Game 2 was an absolute disaster and it pretty clearly falls on him, and I don't think you can move forward with trust from players/coaches in management after a f***up that bad. It made the whole team look like a laughingstock and a disjointed mess.



Not to the same extent. Both had ~500 PA while Kiermaier had 200 and Belt 250.
In fairness I still think Tampa has the crown for pulling a pitcher in a pivotal game.

The Jays aren't in bad shape overall, the question is will the pitching repeat this year's results. I mean you can hope Monah can bounce back, but you can't run with that going into next year. He has to earn his spot back depending on what they do in the offseason. I really think Vladdy's big issue is that he wants to be the guy and tries to make something happen and starts chasing everything, which doesn't lead to good results, though I think he still have the best average with RISP on the team at the end of the season, though I could be mistake on that.
 

hockeywiz542

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May 26, 2008
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The Major League Baseball qualifying offer will rise to approximately $20.5 million for players on the upcoming free-agent market, The Post has learned.

An exact figure must be agreed to by MLB and the MLB Players Association no later than 10 days after the 2023 regular season ends.

The Post has been told, however, that the mean of the top 125 salaries from 2023 (the formula for calculating the qualifying offer) will be very close to $20.5 million.


That would make it a record for a process that began in 2012. The previous high was last offseason, when the qualifying offer was $19.65 million.

Fourteen players were tendered qualifying offers following the 2022 season, with Joc Pederson (Giants) and Martin Perez (Rangers) accepting.

The qualifying offer has been extended to 124 players in its history and just 13 of them have accepted that one-year offer.

It has become more commonplace recently for a player or two to accept than it was in the early years of the process.

The last time no player accepted was after the 2017 season.

For many teams, making the qualifying offer has been a no-brainer because they could be relatively certain the player would not accept and they would gain a draft pick in compensation.


That pick would come either after the first round or after competitive-balance round B, depending on several factors, including the size of the contract and the revenue and luxury-tax status of the organization that is losing the free agent.
 

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