Blue Jays GDT: 2023 v13 | **WILDCARD SERIES GAME 2** Wed, Oct 4 | @ Min | 4:30pm ET/1:30pm PT | Berrios vs Gray

[Kurtz]

Well yes, that's exactly why I said he'd present as being more valuable once in CF, a premium position. Michael Taylor's a ridiculous comp when Varsho has almost matched him in bWAR and fWAR despite playing less than half of his total games played.

Leading in DRS as a rookie catcher is great, until you notice that Kirk was 2nd and was more than a full win better than him in framing (something bWAR neglects in their dWAR). And before we rush into the robo ump thing it's not like Kirk isn't one of the best blockers in the game as well. He's a great defender too, make no mistake.

Take a glance at Taylor vs Varsho's numbers this year and tell me again that the comparison is ridiculous...

Framing is Moreno's lone weakness, but it's something that is incredibly easy to address.

If you can honestly tell me that when you see Moreno that visions of Ivan Rodriguez don't dance in your head...

Postseason offence will always be pretty rough. Texas, Tampa, Philly, and Minny are top 10 offences and none of them scored more than 4 (and in the Rays case they got shutout).

That g2 last year should've been an easy win though. Think it made management go a little insane and try another way (pitching and defence).

True, although maybe it finally made our mgmt team realize that it's nice to have a lights out pen.

 

[GreytWun]

Postseason offence will always be pretty rough. Texas, Tampa, Philly, and Minny are top 10 offences and none of them scored more than 4 (and in the Rays case they got shutout).

That g2 last year should've been an easy win though. Think it made management go a little insane and try another way (pitching and defence).

You don’t win games with a .189 RISP. The only reason these stats look that way is because of 1 game last year where Teo carried us otherwise it would be much worse.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Blue Jays postseason offence since 2020

Runs Scored 13
Strikeouts 45
OPS .624
AVG w/RISP .189
Record 0-5

Sooooooooo basically:

Vladdy/Bo = Auston/Mitch

 

[Eyedea]

Take a glance at Taylor vs Varsho's numbers this year and tell me again that the comparison is ridiculous...

Framing is Moreno's lone weakness, but it's something that is incredibly easy to address.

If you can honestly tell me that when you see Moreno that visions of Ivan Rodriguez don't dance in your head...



True, although maybe it finally made our mgmt team realize that it's nice to have a lights out pen.

This year I'm looking at basically peak Taylor vs low end Varsho. We're talking about a guy that is a solid defender, but tremendously boosted his value these last three seasons by playing CF (960-1180 innings each year). With Varsho we're looking more at a prime KK (who would sleepwalk to 3-4 WAR each year if not for injuries).

 

[Eyedea]

You don’t win games with a .189 RISP. The only reason these stats look that way is because of 1 game last year where Teo carried us otherwise it would be much worse.

The Twins literally won yesterday while going 0-4 with RISP…

Rangers went 2-13
DBacks went 1-10
Phillies went 3-14

Pretty sure every team that lost yesterday had a better average with RISP vs the teams that beat them.

 

[GreytWun]

The Twins literally won yesterday while going 0-4 with RISP…

Rangers went 2-13
DBacks went 1-10
Phillies went 3-14

Pretty sure every team that lost yesterday had a better average with RISP vs the teams that beat them.

Not sure what yesterday has to do with our last 5 post season games.

Those teams also do something we don’t. Hit home runs.

 

[Hellcat]

Blue Jays postseason offence since 2020

Runs Scored 13
Strikeouts 45
OPS .624
AVG w/RISP .189
Record 0-5

That's good...right?

 

[GreytWun]

Vladdy is batting .133/.188/.133 with no HRs and a 31.3% K%.

Bichette is batting .143/.235/.214 with no HRs and a 11.8% K%.

Small samples, but that’s the nature of the playoffs. I mean Moreno has more post season home runs than Vladdy and Bichette.

That's good...right?

Of course to the posters to keep trying to justify the stats as being passable.

 

[Eyedea]

Not sure what yesterday has to do with our last 5 post season games.

Those teams also do something we don’t. Hit home runs.

Not sure what 4 games across two other separate postseason appearances have anything to do with yesterday's result?

I also didn't see Texas or Philly hit home runs yesterday.

 

[GreytWun]

Not sure what 4 games across two other separate postseason appearances have anything to do with yesterday's result?

I also didn't see Texas or Philly hit home runs yesterday.

Because it’s a larger sample size than 1 game? It shows that this team hasn’t improved in the post season the last couple years.

 

[theaub]

I don't know if hitting HR or hitting with RISP is more important to win in the playoffs but what I definitely know is if you do neither then you're screwed.

 

[EpochLink]

Game 2, come out strong and hopefully get an early lead. Jays were chasing all game yesterday, didn’t help we got sunk in the 1st inning.

 

[Eyedea]

Because it’s a larger sample size than 1 game? It shows that this team hasn’t improved in the post season the last couple years.

 

[shaner8989]

Blue Jays postseason offence since 2020

Runs Scored 13
Strikeouts 45
OPS .624
AVG w/RISP .189
Record 0-5

Trash after trash after trash. It’s almost like we have trash at the plate. Who knew

 

[egd27]

Jays can’t hit good pitching sure as water being wet. They haven’t won a playoff game at all in the last 2 post seasons now it looks like the same might happen again.

Changes need to be made if they get swept yet again.

Isn't the inability to hit it what makes pitching good?

 

[GreytWun]

Of course it doesn’t fit your narrative. Good talk.

Isn't the inability to hit it what makes pitching good?

How can we be so good then ? According to some posters around here we are fine lol.

 

[GreytWun]

I don't know if hitting HR or hitting with RISP is more important to win in the playoffs but what I definitely know is if you do neither then you're screwed.

Exactly. Both are equally important yet we can’t figure either one out.

 

[Eyedea]

Of course it doesn’t fit your narrative. Good talk.



How can we be so good then ? According to some posters around here we are fine lol.

Because there isn't a narrative to draw up here. 5 games over 3 years gives me nothing. I just used 4 games from last night to completely skew the results the other way.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

CF also get a positive positional adjustment. It's not difficult to accrue WAR at that position.

Twins have Varsho's clone, Michael Taylor, in CF and they did not give up a franchise catcher for him.

The Moreno deal is going to haunt us and Atkins for the next decade - there is no running away from it. The fact that Moreno leads the majors in defensive runs saved as a rookie catcher is insane.

I don't think the discussion has been beaten to death given the magnitude of the mistake, and its not an issue of hindsight either because the trade looked bad from day 1. But it'll be beaten to death eventually like the Michael Young trade was, because Moreno is just that good.

Gurriel 2.1 fWAR + Moreno 1.7fWAR = 3.8
Varsho 2.2fWAR.

Advantage Arizona.

 

[Hellcat]

Trivia question who is the only team that Minny has beat in their last 19 playoff games? It's a toughie you may need to google it.

Gurriel 2.1 fWAR + Moreno 1.7fWAR = 3.8
Varsho 2.2fWAR.

Advantage Arizona.

I think Varsho had an off year, I think he has all the tools to be a very good player. Does suck though both guys we traded were good and the guy we got back struggled (compared to expectations) for most of the year.

 

[GreytWun]

Because there isn't a narrative to draw up here. 5 games over 3 years gives me nothing. I just used 4 games from last night to completely skew the results the other way.

Colour me surprised. Doesn’t fit so let’s redirect. Let’s keep doing the same thing year after year because it’s working.

 

[Eyedea]

Colour me surprised. Doesn’t fit so let’s redirect. Let’s keep doing the same thing year after year because it’s working.

Does it look like they've been doing the same thing every year? Or are we just saying this because Vlad and Bo, the cornerstones, are still on the team?

 

[GreytWun]

Gurriel 2.1 fWAR + Moreno 1.7fWAR = 3.8
Varsho 2.2fWAR.

Advantage Arizona.

Just you wait until the apologists try to justify.

Does it look like they've been doing the same thing every year? Or are we just saying this because Vlad and Bo, the cornerstones, are still on the team?

Yea it does. I already posted the stats. They are terrible year after year.

2020 we scored 3 runs
2022 we scored 9 runs (9 were in 1 game thanks to Teo)
2023 we have scored 1 run so far.

Again let me bring this to light for you, our “superstar” performances.

Vladdy is batting .133/.188/.133 with no HRs and a 31.3% K%.

Bichette is batting .143/.235/.214 with no HRs and a 11.8% K%.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Well yes, that's exactly why I said he'd present as being more valuable once in CF, a premium position. Michael Taylor's a ridiculous comp when Varsho has almost matched him in bWAR and fWAR despite playing less than half of his total games played.

This is a misleading argument. Playing fewer games and accruing more WAR is not always an accolade because unlike homeruns (for example) WAR can go up or down with more games played. At one point during his hot streak Davis Schneider was worth over 3fWAR in 1/4th of the games Varsho had played. Playing more games allows WAR to normalize over the course of a season, so its actually harder to maintain a high WAR over more games than it is over a few.

 

[Eyedea]

Just you wait until the apologists try to justify.

It's a worthless argument because

1. We weren't getting Carroll or someone better than a guy coming off a 4+ win season; and,
2. Moreno would be on the bench and Gurriel would be gifting base hits in left