2023 Trade Deadline (03/03/23 3PM EST)

[cbjthrowaway]

Maybe Jarmo wanted to have cap space available to broker other trades and pick up more assets. Only 3 retention slots, maybe he believed that Gavrikov didn’t require one and the other 3 could be used on Karlsson, Kane and Nyquist.

do you seriously want columbus to retain money on the remaining four-plus years and ~50m that is owed to erik karlsson?

besides, being the broker on a kane deal would, at most, bring back a fourth round pick. no GM in the world would pass up a 1st + more because they wanted to get a fourth round pick in a different deal.

I’ll speculate it was Jarmo playing hardball, wanting to look like he “won” the deal.

this doesn't jive at all with the "columbus thought they had a commitment from boston" stuff, though. boston met the asking price, columbus was happy enough with it to sit him out and wait for boston to shuffle the deck.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Some are speculating ownership wouldn’t retain salary or take on the Smith contract, but that’s all it is - speculation. McConnell has traditionally been a passive owner and let the front office run the show. If we are going to play the speculation game, I’ll speculate it was Jarmo playing hardball, wanting to look like he “won” the deal.

Don't really care who it is at this point - both are options are bad. Either a cheap owner or a stubborn GM who doesn't understand the cost of doing business in today's market.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Don't really care who it is at this point - both are options are bad. Either a cheap owner or a stubborn GM who doesn't understand the cost of doing business in today's market.

…not for nothing but this is mere months after having to trade oliver bjorkstrand in a "cost of doing business" trade.

to me, signs are pointing to ownership here.

 

[Cowumbus]

do you seriously want columbus to retain money on the remaining four-plus years and ~50m that is owed to erik karlsson?

No, it’s an example off the top of my head. Meier, Kilngberg, whoever.

besides, being the broker on a kane deal would, at most, bring back a fourth round pick. no GM in the world would pass up a 1st + more because they wanted to get a fourth round pick in a different deal.

You can say this, but can you prove it? CBJ were not willing to retain… okay then trade Gav to a different team to retain some, we have 2 4th round picks anyway. Jarmo is given a free pass but blame is immediately on ownership.

…not for nothing but this is mere months after having to trade oliver bjorkstrand in a "cost of doing business" trade.

to me, signs are pointing to ownership here.

Yeah that’s bc they spent 15 mill on Gud and Johnny Hockey… they had to get cap compliant.

 

[DJA]

Situations like this are why I find it laughable folks think this franchise will be a “contender” after a decent draft pick this year and a better than average prospect pool. The team simply can’t get out of its own way, year after year after year. Change the GM, coaches, replace the players, I wager it’ll be the same result.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

You can say this, but can you prove it? Jarmo is given a free pass but blame is immediately on ownership.

detroit got a fourth on savard. san jose got a fourth on foligno. panthers got a sixth on domi. minnesota just got a fifth on orlov, and before that got a fourth (in 2025) on o'reilly.

what's the difference in value between $2.625 of retention (kane) and $1.875 (o'reilly), which got a fourth rounder three drafts from now? not significant imo -- probably the same as the difference between a 2025 fourth and 2023 fourth.

no team has, to my knowledge, ever gotten better than a fourth round pick in one of those trades. even if you wanna argue that this particular one would get them a third, that's one of three retention slots, and they wouldn't need to use any of them if they'd taken on craig smith's deal anyway.

Yeah that’s bc they spent 15 mill on Gud and Johnny Hockey… they had to get cap compliant.

the comment i was replying to here said it was either unwilling ownership or a gm who 'doesn't understand the cost of doing business' -- the bjorkstrand trade was the definition of a 'cost of doing business' move.

the reason for the bjorkstrand trade is irrelevant. my point was that jarmo clearly understands the cost of doing business because he just went through that.

 

[Cowumbus]

detroit got a fourth on savard. san jose got a fourth on foligno. panthers got a sixth on domi. minnesota just got a fifth on orlov, and before that got a fourth (in 2025) on o'reilly.

what's the difference in value between $2.625 of retention (kane) and $1.875 (o'reilly), which got a fourth rounder three drafts from now? not significant imo -- probably the same as the difference between a 2025 fourth and 2023 fourth.

no team has, to my knowledge, ever gotten better than a fourth round pick in one of those trades. even if you wanna argue that this particular one would get them a third, that's one of three retention slots, and they wouldn't need to use any of them if they'd taken on craig smith's deal anyway.

I was saying prove that Jarmo wouldn’t pass up this deal because he was committed to not retaining on Gavrikov.

All of your post above can be applied to Jarmo though. Why could we not use the Jets 4th round pick as payment for someone like the Ducks to retain on Gavrikov?

 

[MissADD]

I would like to point out this board has gone into complete meltdown, all because one trade didn't happen, with over a week left until the deadline, when according to Friedman, a source most, if not all of us trust, at least one GM thought a deal was done. Maybe should put a pause on hitting the doomed button and do the non-doomer speculation. Save the doomer talk if a deal doesn't happen in the next 172 hours

 

[DarkandStormy]

the comment i was replying to here said it was either unwilling ownership or a gm who 'doesn't understand the cost of doing business' -- the bjorkstrand trade was the definition of a 'cost of doing business' move.

the reason for the bjorkstrand trade is irrelevant. my point was that jarmo clearly understands the cost of doing business because he just went through that.

Not sure Bjorkstrand is relevant. He *HAD* to make a deal like that (Bjorkstrand or Nyquist) to get cap compliant after Gaudreau fell into their laps after they had already wasted a bunch of money on Gudbranson.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I was saying prove that Jarmo wouldn’t pass up this deal because he was committed to not retaining on Gavrikov.

nothing that happens behind closed doors can be proven or disproven.

what we can do, however, is look at context clues and precedent in similar moves and reported information and infer what logically makes the most sense.

All of your post above can be applied to Jarmo though. Why could we not use the Jets 4th round pick as payment for someone like the Ducks to retain on Gavrikov?

perhaps they could have. perhaps they tried to – can you prove that they didn't? (see what i did there?)

that said, looking at the precedent here – nearly every time there's been a third party broker deal, the team that ended up acquiring the player at the end was the one who gave up the draft pick.

- foligno: san jose got a fourth from toronto
- savard: detroit got a fourth from tampa
- o'reilly: minnesota got a fourth from toronto
- orlov: minnesota got a fifth from boston

it's possible (i'd even say likely) that the 'other move' CBJ was waiting on boston for wasn't them finding a taker for craig smith, but instead someone who they'd pay to retain on gavrikov.

the athletic's reporting on the o'reilly trade would seem to support that theory, as they said it's the buyer who reaches out to the broker.

At 7:01 p.m., seven minutes before puck drop, the call came in.

It was Brandon Pridham, O’Hearn’s [MIN's AGM] Maple Leafs counterpart.

“Here’s the deal,” Pridham said. “We’re trading for Ryan O’Reilly, and we need your help.”

maybe you could look at that and say "well, jarmo was probably so stubborn that he insisted that boston pay another team to retain on gavrikov instead of giving up his own fourth round pick" – and you might be right! but the one exception to the above trend was the max domi trade last year, where jarmo sent a sixth to have florida retain.

 

[DJA]

I would like to point out this board has gone into complete meltdown, all because one trade didn't happen, with over a week left until the deadline, when according to Friedman, a source most, if not all of us trust, at least one GM thought a deal was done. Maybe should put a pause on hitting the doomed button and do the non-doomer speculation. Save the doomer talk if a deal doesn't happen in the next 172 hours

Not because of one failed trade, because of 22 years of ineptitude. This is just the latest example, so it’s being added to the list of grievances

 

[majormajor]

I just did some number crunching based, based off the numbers on cap friendly, and I'm not sure the jackets could afford to retain 50% of Gavrikov's contract and taken on Smiths contract, if the ultimate goal was to use the picks gotten from the trade to aquire Chychrun. Another factor we have to take in is the unknown with diamond sports filing for bankruptcy could very well affect cap situations for next year and years to come. Who knows what will come with that, that may play into ownership's decision not to take on an expiring contract and retain salary from a player. There's a difference between paying money for a player you plan on/want to keep vs paying money for a player that you definitely aren't keeping or isn't here.

I would assume we could move Jake to LTIR for cap relief correct?

I was always the guy crying about an internal cap in years past. I don't think that's a concern (ownership has shown they will spend), but not sure if the owners would be willing to go over the NHL CAP (via LTIR). I'm guessing it tells me maybe the contract wasn't insured (so yes LTIR works but ownership not reimbursed for it)? It would be short sighted to me to not retain salary (or take back) to increase the return, but who knows maybe there is other circumstances (Debt Agreements or not wanting to spend over the CAP, etc).

The Jackets can use LTIR to go way above the cap. It's not a cap issue. It's a salaries issue. The full extent of the salaries is unknown because the insurance payouts are not publicly available. Let's remember that not every player is covered (the standard team insurance package only covers a handful), the insurers can reject players or only cover specific injuries, and they don't cover 100%. Porty was saying the other day that it was only 50% in some cases, which seems awfully small.

So yeah our ownership is just burning through piles of money this year paying for players that can't play. If they want to draw a line, they can draw a line.

 

[Cowumbus]

nothing that happens behind closed doors can be proven or disproven.

what we can do, however, is look at context clues and precedent in similar moves and reported information and infer what logically makes the most sense.

perhaps they could have. perhaps they tried to – can you prove that they didn't? (see what i did there?)

I mean that is what @DominicT reported and was mentioned earlier in this thread…

“It took 48 hours to close this deal. No evaluating.

CBJ ownership was not willing to retain on Gavrikov or take back salary.

Bruins could not make it work. In the end, this was a better deal.”

maybe you could look at that and say "well, jarmo was probably so stubborn that he insisted that boston pay another team to retain on gavrikov instead of giving up his own fourth round pick" – and you might be right!

Pretty much.

But people seem keen on blaming ownership instead.

 

[DarkandStormy]

I suppose the prudent thing to do is to wait until 3:00 pm (or 3:30 pm once all trades trickle out) next Friday. For now, this appears to be a disaster.

Additionally, why is Minnesota the only team paying money to get extra picks? They paid ~$250k in actual cash for a 5th round pick in the Orlov trade and ~$450k in actual cash for a 4th rounder in the O'Reilly trade. Do no other teams want to do that? Or is Bill Guerin just the nicest GM in the world so teams only launder cap hits through him? We could LTIR Voracek, Bean, and/or Danforth to open space if we needed it and pay a few hundred thousand bucks for some more mid round picks. This is what "weaponizing cap space" looks like and we're not doing it. We never do it, only talk about it.

I am now very pessimistic about this deadline. If we weren't willing to retain on Gavrikov's $2.8m hit, are we not going to retain on Nyquist? What about Korpisalo? My expectations are now extremely low after the last 24 hours.

I also think chasing Chychrun is dumb. This team is not a Jakob Chychrun away from contending, and yet a "framework" was apparently in place to acquire him at the 2022 draft and there is a lot of smoke out there that we intended to flip the acquired 1st round pick from Boston with someone/something (Mateychuk? our 2024 1st?) for Chychrun, a guy who might be more injury-prone than Adam Boqvist.

It really seems like the front office is going to chalk up this season to "injuries" and head into next season believing they have a contending roster that's maybe one LD away from being one of the top teams in the league. There's really no good way to read all of this, if the tea leaves are, in fact, correct.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

I would like to point out this board has gone into complete meltdown, all because one trade didn't happen, with over a week left until the deadline, when according to Friedman, a source most, if not all of us trust, at least one GM thought a deal was done. Maybe should put a pause on hitting the doomed button and do the non-doomer speculation. Save the doomer talk if a deal doesn't happen in the next 172 hours

I'm going to be honest: I don't get the hand-wringing. This won't make or break the franchise either way.

We need more Grants and less McClellans

 

[Xoggz22]

The same ownership that is paying out the full salary cap amount to a team in last place, because of contracts such as Wennberg, Gudbranson that Jarmo signed.

The Horton example you used doesn’t make sense to me. Jarmo signed the contract without having it insured… so yeah if you’re a owner why would you pay out 8 million to a player who is never going to play versus less money to someone who is…? It really doesn’t matter how good they are as a player at that point.

This is not actually correct. The contract was insured, however, it was insured as a result of a shoulder injury and evidently the back was never in play... until it was. So when the back injury put him to LTIR, effectively ending his career, insurance didn't have to pay for the contract.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I mean that is what @DominicT reported and was mentioned earlier in this thread…

“It took 48 hours to close this deal. No evaluating.

CBJ ownership was not willing to retain on Gavrikov or take back salary.

Bruins could not make it work. In the end, this was a better deal.”

But people seem keen on blaming ownership instead.

enhance!

blaming ownership instead.

enhance!

CBJ ownership was not willing to retain on Gavrikov or take back salary.

CBJ ownership was not willing to retain

ENHANCE!!!

CBJ ownership

 

[Cowumbus]

enhance!

enhance!


ENHANCE!!!

So Jarmo can trade for another team to retain on Gavrikov. ENHANCE! Fully on Jarmo.
Only thing reported was that the Bruins had to find someone to take Smith. Jarmo never tried to find someone to retain on Gavrikov, because the deal was “done.”

 

[Viqsi]

Never Jarmo’s fault.

As opposed to Always Jarmo's Fault.

 

[Cowumbus]

This is not actually correct. The contract was insured, however, it was insured as a result of a shoulder injury and evidently the back was never in play... until it was. So when the back injury put him to LTIR, effectively ending his career, insurance didn't have to pay for the contract.

In other words, not fully insured. Up to the team on what they want to insure or not.

 

[MissADD]

I suppose the prudent thing to do is to wait until 3:00 pm (or 3:30 pm once all trades trickle out) next Friday. For now, this appears to be a disaster.

Additionally, why is Minnesota the only team paying money to get extra picks? They paid ~$250k in actual cash for a 5th round pick in the Orlov trade and ~$450k in actual cash in the O'Reilly trade. Do no other teams want to do that? Or is Bill Guerin just the nicest GM in the world so teams only launder cap hits through him? We could LTIR Voracek, Bean, and/or Danforth to open space if we needed it and pay a few hundred thousand bucks for some more mid round picks. This is what "weaponizing cap space" looks like and we're not doing it. We never do it, only talk about it.

I am now very pessimistic about this deadline. If we weren't willing to retain on Gavrikov's $2.8m hit, are we not going to retain on Nyquist? What about Korpisalo? My expectations are now extremely low after the last 24 hours.

I also think chasing Chychrun is dumb. This team is not a Jakob Chychrun away from contending, and yet a "framework" was apparently in place to acquire him at the 2022 draft and there is a lot of smoke out there that we intended to flip the acquired 1st round pick from Boston with someone/something (Mateychuk? our 2024 1st?) for Chychrun, a guy who might be more injury-prone than Adam Boqvist.

It really seems like the front office is going to chalk up this season to "injuries" and head into next season believing they have a contending roster that's maybe one LD away from being one of the top teams in the league. There's really no good way to read all of this, if the tea leaves are, in fact, correct.

Reading this post, I wonder if they looked at Nyquist at the hardest to move because of his injury, so that would be the one they would have to retain because of his injury, because it would be needed to retain an assets, so they are less willing to retain on other contracts. Because of course the biggest contract, of the expiring tradeable assets, is injured. Just a thought I had

 

[ViD]

Boston played Jarmo, it’s that simple

Gavrikov sat 5 games for nothing

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Boston played Jarmo, it’s that simple

Gavrikov sat 5 games for nothing

Joke is on them - it helped us lose more games in the race to the bottom!

 

[cbjthrowaway]

In other words, not fully insured. Up to the team on what they want to insure or not.

insurance companies famously will insure anything you want them to, like preexisting conditions!

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

"Boston played Jarmo"

What exactly does this mean? What sneaky strategy did Boston employ and how did it benefit them at Jarmo's expense?