2023 Tank Thread (Mod post Page 60)

[GunnarStahl]

Since it seems the Ducks will likely finish bottom 5 this year, I figured we should have a thread for discussing the implications of where the f***s will finish in the standings. As well as what factors could affect where they finish.

Tonight was interesting as all bottom 5 teams earned 2 points sans the Ducks and the Hawks.

Hey Folks,

Want to clear some of the air here, Tank talk is not an issue, please talk tank to your heart’s content here, totally understand how critical it is for that Future Potential Top pick. The issue is posting in the GDT, like you want the team to lose or make posts that you are angry they are winning or won the game, or bashing the team for not tanking.

The main reason is, to respect your fellow members. The GDT is about discussion of the game on a live basis and then post game discussion and opinions. A lot of fans are not rooting for the team to lose, and everyone has their views and opinions towards tanking, and may not want to discuss tanking in the GDT

If you guys have any concerns, feel free to PM me or another mod, and would be happy to explain more in detail.

Thanks!

Leo

Click to read more...

 

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Arizona is now up 5-0....

 

[Static]

Hawks win 5-1

 

[MMC]

Someone can critique my opinion, but I have a real hard time believing Verbeek is purposely tanking.

There is just not enough talent on this roster to be successful, and some of our older prospects aren’t as good as we had hoped.

I don’t think his plan going into this past offseason that he would build a team that would finish last in the league, I think it was a developmental year to see who would sink or swim. Once we saw what this team was made of after the first quarter of the season or so though, it’s obvious he’s fine with letting the NHL team sink, which I suppose you’d call “purposefully tanking”. He’s made no external moves to the NHL roster during the season to try to improve the team, he hasn’t changed the mix of players at the NHL level at all since Kirkland debuted well over a month ago, and obviously no coaching changes. So I wouldn’t say he built this team to tank, but he’s definitely choosing to let them bleed out rather than attempting to bandage this team at all

 

[Terry Yake]

blew what would have been a perfect night for the tank

infuriating

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I don’t think his plan going into this past offseason that he would build a team that would finish last in the league, I think it was a developmental year to see who would sink or swim. Once we saw what this team was made of after the first quarter of the season or so though, it’s obvious he’s fine with letting the NHL team sink, which I suppose you’d call “purposefully tanking”. He’s made no external moves to the NHL roster during the season to try to improve the team, he hasn’t changed the mix of players at the NHL level at all since Kirkland debuted well over a month ago, and obviously no coaching changes. So I wouldn’t say he built this team to tank, but he’s definitely choosing to let them bleed out rather than attempting to bandage this team at all

Verbeek sat on his hands when he became GM and Manson was put on IR during the All-star break. He wasn't actively trying to improve the team knowing the team's top-4D would be out for an extended amount of time while still on the fringe playoff hunt.

PV's all in on a rebuild through and through. Of the off-season acquisitions, he did research work on the forwards as he went after them earlier in the FA period in RW Vatrano, C Strome, and F el Nino. El Nino got swayed to play with his fellow country man. PV didn't think the D needed help, but really needed Klingberg's $7 mil cap to reach the cap floor since el Nino didn't sign with us. Then Minny needed a cap dump and we picked up Kulikov.

The scary part is PV actually believed he constructed a team that would close to or at .500. Since this was always a rebuild season, there isn't a point in improving the team and just let the youth "work through adversity".

 

[Quack Shot]

Gotta start trading away players before we win more games. Well, maybe not. Need Klingberg and Shatty in the lineup to lose.

 

[Son of Gib]

Verbeek sat on his hands when he became GM and Manson was put on IR during the All-star break. He wasn't actively trying to improve the team knowing the team's top-4D would be out for an extended amount of time while still on the fringe playoff hunt.

PV's all in on a rebuild through and through. Of the off-season acquisitions, he did research work on the forwards as he went after them earlier in the FA period in RW Vatrano, C Strome, and F el Nino. El Nino got swayed to play with his fellow country man. PV didn't think the D needed help, but really needed Klingberg's $7 mil cap to reach the cap floor since el Nino didn't sign with us. Then Minny needed a cap dump and we picked up Kulikov.

The scary part is PV actually believed he constructed a team that would close to or at .500. Since this was always a rebuild season, there isn't a point in improving the team and just let the youth "work through adversity".

No, he SAID he believed the team would be closer to .500 in an interview. That's just good management. He can't say, "Oh yeah, we're getting killed out there, it's perfect!"

 

[Terry Yake]

Gotta start trading away players before we win more games. Well, maybe not. Need Klingberg and Shatty in the lineup to lose.

yeah, klingberg and shattenkirk are good for the tank. they should probably deal vatrano soon while his value is high

 

[Hockey Duckie]

The scary part is PV actually believed he constructed a team that would close to or at .500. Since this was always a rebuild season, there isn't a point in improving the team and just let the youth "work through adversity".

No, he SAID he believed the team would be closer to .500 in an interview. That's just good management. He can't say, "Oh yeah, we're getting killed out there, it's perfect!"

It's nice to know you're repeating everything I said in bolded orange. The GM's job is roster construction, or did the roster construction magically happen without any of his design nor consent?

But if you are stickler on intentions, then explain this quote from an Oct 20th, 2022 article from the Athletic:

“The expectation has always been, for me, making sure that our younger players are developing and taking steps,” Verbeek said. “That’s my expectation. Where it ends up, it ends up.”​

Verbeek literally stated this 4 games into the new season. PV set the bar low where wins and losses doesn't matter. In the Verbeek Podcast, he could have simply reiterated that notion in review of the first quarter and the thought would have been consistent. Instead, he said he believed the team would be around or at .500. That means he wanted both expectations to be true: 1) development of youth and 2) be close to or around .500.

We got replacement plugs, not replacement equals. I wasn't expecting us to be at or near .500 b/c I believed in Verbeek's actions and consistent thoughts. You just have to be wary that Verbeek throws out fibs like the next step is making the team into a contender, but turns around and blows up the team. I have a quotes for both ideas, the former from Detroit News article and the latter from aforementioned the Athletic article:

Contender Quote:​

"This team doesn't need to be rebuilt; they're in the middle of their rebuild, so this is a great opportunity to take this team forward and turn them into a contender," Verbeek said during his introductory press conference. "You don't have to come in there and look to take a long time. There's good players in the NHL, good players in the minors and there are players that have been drafted. There's a lot coming to support the growth of this team. That's truly what I'm excited about."​

Blew up team Quote:​

“It’s not fair … me coming in two, three months and then going with a new guy,” Verbeek said. “And in the sense that I just blew up the team (at the trade deadline). So I wanted to give him a chance. And it gave us an opportunity to get to know one another over the course of the offseason.​

What is consistent is that we're in an obvious rebuild. PV thought he brought in equal replacements or better. He wasn't the only one, though, because many fans and pundits believed the Ducks would also be much better. Remember, Verbeek actually wanted to sign Klingberg to a multi-year, short term deal at the start of free agency, which is intimated in aforementioned the Athletic article.

And what was the sales pitch to get Klingberg to sign to this rebuilding situation on a short-term deal as an unrestricted free agent?​

“It was kind of a mutual searching out,” Verbeek said. “I had tried earlier (in free agency to sign Klingberg). But I wasn’t looking for a seven-year deal. But I think he was looking for an opportunity where he could play with some good players and be given an opportunity to produce so he can sort of set himself up (for the next contract).​

Although PV knew it was a rebuild season, you also have to believe him when he thinks the team should be near or at .500 because of his acquisitions. My hopes is that he'll learn from his failings to make us better.

 

[Son of Gib]

It's nice to know you're repeating everything I said in bolded orange. The GM's job is roster construction, or did the roster construction magically happen without any of his design nor consent?

But if you are stickler on intentions, then explain this quote from an Oct 20th, 2022 article from the Athletic:

“The expectation has always been, for me, making sure that our younger players are developing and taking steps,” Verbeek said. “That’s my expectation. Where it ends up, it ends up.”​

Verbeek literally stated this 4 games into the new season. PV set the bar low where wins and losses doesn't matter. In the Verbeek Podcast, he could have simply reiterated that notion in review of the first quarter and the thought would have been consistent. Instead, he said he believed the team would be around or at .500. That means he wanted both expectations to be true: 1) development of youth and 2) be close to or around .500.

We got replacement plugs, not replacement equals. I wasn't expecting us to be at or near .500 b/c I believed in Verbeek's actions and consistent thoughts. You just have to be wary that Verbeek throws out fibs like the next step is making the team into a contender, but turns around and blows up the team. I have a quotes for both ideas, the former from Detroit News article and the latter from aforementioned the Athletic article:

Contender Quote:​

"This team doesn't need to be rebuilt; they're in the middle of their rebuild, so this is a great opportunity to take this team forward and turn them into a contender," Verbeek said during his introductory press conference. "You don't have to come in there and look to take a long time. There's good players in the NHL, good players in the minors and there are players that have been drafted. There's a lot coming to support the growth of this team. That's truly what I'm excited about."​

Blew up team Quote:​

“It’s not fair … me coming in two, three months and then going with a new guy,” Verbeek said. “And in the sense that I just blew up the team (at the trade deadline). So I wanted to give him a chance. And it gave us an opportunity to get to know one another over the course of the offseason.​

What is consistent is that we're in an obvious rebuild. PV thought he brought in equal replacements or better. He wasn't the only one, though, because many fans and pundits believed the Ducks would also be much better. Remember, Verbeek actually wanted to sign Klingberg to a multi-year, short term deal at the start of free agency, which is intimated in aforementioned the Athletic article.

And what was the sales pitch to get Klingberg to sign to this rebuilding situation on a short-term deal as an unrestricted free agent?​

“It was kind of a mutual searching out,” Verbeek said. “I had tried earlier (in free agency to sign Klingberg). But I wasn’t looking for a seven-year deal. But I think he was looking for an opportunity where he could play with some good players and be given an opportunity to produce so he can sort of set himself up (for the next contract).​

Although PV knew it was a rebuild season, you also have to believe him when he thinks the team should be near or at .500 because of his acquisitions. My hopes is that he'll learn from his failings to make us better.

No reason to get upset, I'm not looking to pick a fight. But you're not understanding my point, so I'll put it another way. There is an important distinction between saying something publicly and actually believing it. In a perfect world, we tank enough to snag Bedard while still achieving enough each game to see our young guys develop and keep paying customers happy (fans). PV isn't stupid, he knows fans, players, management, etc will see these quotes, and admitting we're tanking or telling players that being last in the league is acceptable would be a terrible way to manage.

So, I "have to" believe him when he says he thinks we should be at .500? No, I don't. We had to hit the cap floor somehow. Signing Kling especially was a perfect move for doing everything I just outlined. He's got offensive flair to make things exciting while also being not great defensively, and can be flipped for assets and to tank even harder at the deadline. Kling has not been as good as we thought, but even if he was, our defense would be really bad... by design.

 

[ADHB]

Sharks were up 4-2 with about 90 seconds left over the Canes, and for some unknown reason one of their D (I think it was Jacob Megna) pinched at the blue line leading to a 2 on 1 and a goal against. So naturally the Canes tied it after that.

 

[TheGoodShepard1]

Just an absolutely outstanding choke job by the Sharks to squander the second point in regulation, giving up 2 goals in the final 1:52 after scoring the empty netter to go up 4-2.

 

[ADHB]

Sharks players definitely looking like they're on board with the tank.

 

[TheGoodShepard1]

Just an absolutely outstanding choke job by the Sharks to squander the second point in regulation, giving up 2 goals in the final 1:52 after scoring the empty netter to go up 4-2.

And they give up the OT winner to lose 5-4. Catastrophe

 

[Terry Yake]

well at least they got a point?

 

[TheGoodShepard1]

Sharks players definitely looking like they're on board with the tank.

They‘re four points ahead of us right now (39 points) despite Karlsson having the best offensive season from a Dman in about three decades and are going to move Timo Meier for a HAUL six weeks from now, as well as quality veterans guys like Bonino (Matt Nieto is already gone). They are very much a Bedard frontrunner and I will do bad things if they end up with him

 

[Mr Rogers]

Some people have said they’d rather SJ get Bedard than some other teams. Will be interesting to see if that sentiment changes if something very unfortunate (from my POV) happens on lottery day. Bedard in teal would be awful lolz. Gimme Hawks/Jackets/Yotes all day long if it’s not us.

 

[ADHB]

Yeah, I don’t buy any of that stuff about being ”just a fan of hockey” in wanting Bedard in our division. I mean, you could want that, but then you’re not that big a Ducks fan. Nobody should ever want a generational player on a rival or a team you have to compete with for a division title.

As far as I’m concerned, every team in our division can get screwed at every opportunity, and especially the Kings/Knights/Sharks.

If we don’t get him, let him go to the Blue Jackets, or let some random eastern conference team like the Flyers get him.

 

[cheesymc]

Tanking 101: Tips for being the worst team in the NHL

A look at the difficulties involved in executing a successful tanking strategy.

theathletic.com

Little snippet from a name you might be familiar with:

“What people forget is, players are fighting for their jobs for the following year,” said former Anaheim Ducks executive David McNab, who spent more than four decades in the NHL, first as a scout and then as a front-office executive. “I think it’s extremely hard to try to lose. You can run guys up from the minors or play different lineups, but I believe it’s very hard to tell a good young player who is trying to get a contract, or enhance his value, to go out and play lousy.”

McNab’s father, Max, had just been appointed general manager of the Devils in the middle of the 1983-84 season, just ahead of the Lemieux draft. That year, without the uncertainty created by a draft lottery, the Penguins selected Lemieux and changed the trajectory of their organization forever. New Jersey got a very good player — Kirk Muller — as a consolation prize, but Lemieux evolved into one of the top five players in NHL history.

According to McNab, his father didn’t talk much about that first year in New Jersey but remembers him “getting s—” from some fans for winning too many games at the end.

“My dad believed you should try to win and out of respect for the game, you had to put the best team on the ice,” McNab said. “You shouldn’t just try to lose. History will always say, that was dumb. Honestly, they weren’t trying to lose, they just did lose.”

Part of the problem was the Devils had a collection of hungry young players in the lineup — including Pat Verbeek, Ken Daneyko and John MacLean — who were just getting their NHL feet wet. That trio eventually evolved into important contributors.

So time to demote Mac? He can’t go to the AHL so scratch him…

 

[Hockey Duckie]

No reason to get upset, I'm not looking to pick a fight. But you're not understanding my point, so I'll put it another way. There is an important distinction between saying something publicly and actually believing it. In a perfect world, we tank enough to snag Bedard while still achieving enough each game to see our young guys develop and keep paying customers happy (fans). PV isn't stupid, he knows fans, players, management, etc will see these quotes, and admitting we're tanking or telling players that being last in the league is acceptable would be a terrible way to manage.

So, I "have to" believe him when he says he thinks we should be at .500? No, I don't. We had to hit the cap floor somehow. Signing Kling especially was a perfect move for doing everything I just outlined. He's got offensive flair to make things exciting while also being not great defensively, and can be flipped for assets and to tank even harder at the deadline. Kling has not been as good as we thought, but even if he was, our defense would be really bad... by design.

You aren't a mind reader. I gave you facts we were tanking by his own quotes and his own transactions PUBLICLY. Yet, you're duplicitous in thinking in mind reading what PV says. Your opinion is just an opposing opinion that also carries no merit like mine. Which means you are trying to pick a fight and your shit got called out with facts. I can't change your mind when you use your opinion without actual facts. Your rebuttal is, let's sign along, "feeling, nothing more than feeling." Please note, I am attacking your idea, and not you the person.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

Yeah, I don’t buy any of that stuff about being ”just a fan of hockey” in wanting Bedard in our division. I mean, you could want that, but then you’re not that big a Ducks fan. Nobody should ever want a generational player on a rival or a team you have to compete with for a division title.

As far as I’m concerned, every team in our division can get screwed at every opportunity, and especially the Kings/Knights/Sharks.

If we don’t get him, let him go to the Blue Jackets, or let some random eastern conference team like the Flyers get him.

Its a bonus that the Jackets are in the eastern conference in addition to being a likeable team.
I got some family in Columbus area so its kind of cool for them to get Bedard if it isn't the Ducks getting him.
Bettman probably isn't happy there is a chance Bedard goes to Anaheim, Columbus or Arizona.

 

[LiveLaughDucks]

You aren't a mind reader. I gave you facts we were tanking by his own quotes and his own transactions PUBLICLY. Yet, you're duplicitous in thinking in mind reading what PV says. Your opinion is just an opposing opinion that also carries no merit like mine. Which means you are trying to pick a fight and your shit got called out with facts. I can't change your mind when you use your opinion without actual facts. Your rebuttal is, let's sign along, "feeling, nothing more than feeling." Please note, I am attacking your idea, and not you the person.

why you heff to be mad, is only tank

 

[Lord Flashheart]

Although PV knew it was a rebuild season, you also have to believe him when he thinks the team should be near or at .500 because of his acquisitions. My hopes is that he'll learn from his failings to make us better.

GM's will say they expected to be better, and they may bring in players (that are actually nothing more than a stop-gap) under the guise of improving the team. But the reality is teams are tanking, without making it public, the whole system is set up so that there is an incentive to tank.

When a team, any team, sells at the deadline, especially the types of players Ducks sold and with players of Getzlafs ilk retiring, or brings in stop-gap players, there is a plan of tanking.

No single person from a higher up in a team organisazion will say "we are expecting to suck and we are tanking", because it's frowned upon, and it's bad for business, and it's bad for the team.

The first rule of tanking is: you do not talk about tanking.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

When a team, any team, sells at the deadline, especially the types of players Ducks sold and with players of Getzlafs ilk retiring, or brings in stop-gap players, there is a plan of tanking.

Eh, I have to disagree with you there.

I thought Kulikov was a good replacement for Manson, both are inconsistent. Klingberg hasn't been as effective that I thought here.

 

[TheGoodShepard1]

No empty net shenanigans tonight. Couture hits the open cage for his fifth point of the game, and the Sharks win 6-4 in Pittsburgh. Gap will at least remain at 4 going into the break with tonight’s result pending (though the Ducks will have a game in hand)