Transfer: 2023 Summer Transfer Window - Open Window Edition

cgf

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Odegaard, Martinelli, and Saka still exist, though. I think Havertz's finishing will be better when he's asked to operate in a different role. He really only needs to replace Xhaka's goals, if that.

I don't disagree with the broad strokes of what you're saying, but if you get all of your targets Kai would not really be replacing Xhaka's role or minutes. Rice would. Kai would be replacing Jesus's minutes if he won a starting spot, or Nketiah / Trossard's if he ended up in a 6th man role for you.
 

Savant

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I don't disagree with the broad strokes of what you're saying, but if you get all of your targets Kai would not really be replacing Xhaka's role or minutes. Rice would. Kai would be replacing Jesus's minutes if he won a starting spot, or Nketiah / Trossard's if he ended up in a 6th man role for you.
They are going to try to play that Pep formation, just like Klopp switched too. Everyone plagiarizing. Arsenal was doing similar already but with their signing this summer, really seems they are going to go all in on that.

GJ up front
Martinelli Havertz Odegaard Saka
Zinchenko Rice
Gabriel Saliba White

Timber probably starts somewhere eventually if he adjusts well, but I don’t think Arsenal is necessarily trying to throw him in the deep end
 
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cgf

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They are going to try to play that Pep formation, just like Klopp switched too. Everyone plagiarizing. Arsenal was doing similar already but with their signing this summer, really seems they are going to go all in on that.

Regardless of the shape they play, Kai is an attacker and not a deep midfielder. So his minutes will come from that attacking band, not from the midfield where Xhaka got his. That's all I was saying.
 

bluesfan94

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I tease London, but haven't spent enough time there to have a real opinion on it. Just had a miserable few rainy days in London before enjoying the shit out of my time in Dundee and Edinburgh.

And yeah, Berlin does get a lot grittier in the colder months; especially if you're already there for grim reasons :laugh:



TBF to Mahomes, god would make for a pretty good biologist...
Yeah, I was in London in the summer the first time and late April the second time. Both are good times for it. I do adore Edinburgh and Inverness, too, and have a soft spot for Oxford, although I understand it isn't exactly a big city.
 
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Savant

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Regardless of the shape they play, Kai is an attacker and not a deep midfielder. So his minutes will come from that attacking band, not from the midfield where Xhaka got his. That's all I was saying.
Sure but I also don’t think Arsenal are trying to play the same shape they played last year. I don’t think Kai is going to be in the Xhaka areas, but I don’t think there necessarily is going to be a Xhaka area
 

bluesfan94

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I don't disagree with the broad strokes of what you're saying, but if you get all of your targets Kai would not really be replacing Xhaka's role or minutes. Rice would. Kai would be replacing Jesus's minutes if he won a starting spot, or Nketiah / Trossard's if he ended up in a 6th man role for you.
I don't think that's the plan. The plan is to play Odegaard/Havertz as dual 8/10s with Rice at the 6. Kinda hard to show it in words, but something like this in possession:

Martinelli - Jesus - Saka
Havertz - Odegaard - White
Zinchenko - Rice
Gabriel - Saliba​

Havertz would and Jesus would be pretty interchangeable in possession though. So either could bounce out left to connect with Martinelli.
 

cgf

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Sure but I also don’t think Arsenal are trying to play the same shape they played last year

I don't follow them closely enough to know. I was just going off an arsenal fan using this season's formula.

Either way I think it would be a good move if they believe in Kai and can get him playing more like he does for the NT than Chelsea.
 

Savant

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I don't think that's the plan. The plan is to play Odegaard/Havertz as dual 8/10s with Rice at the 6. Kinda hard to show it in words, but something like this in possession:

Martinelli - Jesus - Saka
Havertz - Odegaard - White
Zinchenko - Rice
Gabriel Saliba​

Havertz would and Jesus would be pretty interchangeable in possession though. So either could bounce out left to connect with Martinelli.
It’s going to look similar to what Pep and Klopp ended the season with. Think I was on the right track here. That’s going to be the new vogue formation next season because it’s a copy cat league.
 
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cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
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I don't think that's the plan. The plan is to play Odegaard/Havertz as dual 8/10s with Rice at the 6. Kinda hard to show it in words, but something like this in possession:

Martinelli - Jesus - Saka
Havertz - Odegaard - White
Zinchenko - Rice
Gabriel Saliba​

Havertz would and Jesus would be pretty interchangeable in possession though. So either could bounce out left to connect with Martinelli.

That would make sense but seems pretty different from how you played this season. So not sure saying Kai just needs to replace Xhaka's goals is really appropriate given that the whole formula is changing.

I like the idea if you can get the balance right...it's similar to one of the shapes I want our NT to play.
 

bluesfan94

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They are going to try to play that Pep formation, just like Klopp switched too. Everyone plagiarizing. Arsenal was doing similar already but with their signing this summer, really seems they are going to go all in on that.

GJ up front
Martinelli Havertz Odegaard Saka
Rice Lavia
Gabriel Saliba White

Timber probably starts somewhere eventually if he adjusts well, but I don’t think Arsenal is necessarily trying to throw him in the deep end
Yeah, don't think this is the plan. Lavia won't be starting. If Timber plays, I think we see a dual inverted FB, but I think he's not being brought in to start immediately. White's strength last season was providing overlaps for Saka to play off of, because Saka likes to cut in more compared to the left side, where Jesus drifts out. Rice being able to cover CB makes him valuable.
Martinelli - Jesus - Saka
Havertz - Odegaard - White
Zinchenko - Rice
Gabriel - Saliba
Basically if the above is in possession, immediately after a turnover, I think Zinchenko drops in toward LB, Rice sits down to let Saliba slide right some to cover White, who will be dropping, and the front 5 press. Once White recovers, Rice steps forward, but there's nothing coming through the middle with Rice, Gabriel, and Saliba all there.

That would make sense but seems pretty different from how you played this season. So not sure saying Kai just needs to replace Xhaka's goals is really appropriate given that the whole formula is changing.
Sure, but I meant in terms of pure goal numbers. Havertz scoring 5-10 goals is fine if Jesus, Martinelli, Saka, and Odegaard are scoring around 15 each (averaged across the 4). Essentially, if we can get 65 goals out of those 5, we'll have enough from everyone else to be sitting real pretty.

It’s going to look similar to what Pep and Klopp ended the season with. Think I was on the right track here. That’s going to be the new vogue formation next season because it’s a copy cat league.
It's basically the same way that Arsenal played the whole season.
 
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bluesfan94

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Regardless of the shape they play, Kai is an attacker and not a deep midfielder. So his minutes will come from that attacking band, not from the midfield where Xhaka got his. That's all I was saying.
Xhaka wasn't really playing as a deep midfielder last year, either. He was playing as a true 8, and that's where all the messaging regarding Havertz is leading.
 
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cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
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Xhaka wasn't really playing as a deep midfielder last year, either. He was playing as a true 8, and that's where all the messaging regarding Havertz is leading.

Hmm, didn't know that, thought you played with a proper double-pivot behind Odegaard and the attackers. It would still function very differently with Kai instead of Granit.

...especially since I think Kai is better further forward, where he can draw the attention of CBs instead of midfielders...but yeah, even if Kai isn't as good for you as he is for the NT, there should still be plenty of goals in your attack.
It’s going to look similar to what Pep and Klopp ended the season with. Think I was on the right track here. That’s going to be the new vogue formation next season because it’s a copy cat league.

As someone who's been a proponent of modern takes on the WM, WW, & MM formations for years now...especially for our NT lol...it's a very interesting shape if it fits your personnel, but there aren't that many teams who can copy it.
 

KJS14

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Yeah, don't think this is the plan. Lavia won't be starting. If Timber plays, I think we see a dual inverted FB, but I think he's not being brought in to start immediately. White's strength last season was providing overlaps for Saka to play off of, because Saka likes to cut in more compared to the left side, where Jesus drifts out. Rice being able to cover CB makes him valuable.
I think @Savant is thinking about it the right way, but we'll still have some differences compared to what City ended this year with. If anything, I think we'll end up with something of a hybrid between our shape this year and one of Pep's tactics from the middle of the year. The good thing is that having Zinchenko and White at fullback allows us to be more fluid in our possession shape, and either of them can move further up the field for overloads (Zinchenko more inverted, White more overlapping). Assuming Rice and Havertz get done, I think we end up somewhere between the 2 below shapes, with the 2nd one more for bigger games with White staying back for cover.

1) 2-3 at the back, White/Zinchenko with some freedom to get forward:

Jesus
Martinelli - Havertz - Odegaard - Saka
Zinchenko - Rice - White
Gabriel - Saliba

2) 3-2 at the back, White staying back for more cover:

Jesus
Martinelli - Havertz - Odegaard - Saka
Zinchenko - Rice
Gabriel - Saliba - White
Main difference between us and City will be the fullbacks inverting into midfield rather than a CB (Stones) stepping up into midfield and having the fullbacks (really CBs playing there) cover the LCB and RCB spaces.
 

Bringer of Jollity

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Regardless of the shape they play, Kai is an attacker and not a deep midfielder. So his minutes will come from that attacking band, not from the midfield where Xhaka got his. That's all I was saying.
You don't think he could do an attacking 8 like Goretzka (I swear sometimes I feel like the guy's actually playing as a striker)?
 

KJS14

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Hmm, didn't know that, thought you played with a proper double-pivot behind Odegaard and the attackers. It would still function very differently with Kai instead of Granit.

...especially since I think Kai is better further forward, where he can draw the attention of CBs instead of midfielders...but yeah, even if Kai isn't as good for you as he is for the NT, there should still be plenty of goals in your attack.
Yeah, Xhaka played more of a true 8 role last year. Havertz won't be a like-for-like replacement, but could still fill that spot in the team. In addition to the WM type shapes that I laid out above, you could see Havertz driving further forward from midfield than Xhaka did, and Odegaard playing a more controlling role with less runs into the box. Something like:

Jesus - Havertz
Martinelli - Odegaard - Saka
Zinchenko - Rice - White
Gabriel - Saliba

*Zinchenko getting forward to fill space between Odegaard and Martinelli and/or White overlapping on right side with Saka / Havertz​
 
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cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
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You don't think he could do an attacking 8 like Goretzka (I swear sometimes I feel like the guy's actually playing as a striker)?

It's hard for me not to think about Kai in a NT context; where Musiala & Wirtz are much better fits for a KdB-like 8 role and Kai is so clearly better suited to play further forward where he's dealing more with CBs than midfielders.

But thinking about it more, Kai could also play in that 8/10 hybrid role...though that might hold Odegaard back form pushing forward as much as he did last year, since Kai would push up a lot more than Xhaka did.
 

JeffreyLFC

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Meanwhile…


I am to the point where I don't even care. I just hope Klopp can work some more miracle again.

FSG paid the club £300M 11 years ago. They cleared LFC debt with that amount. Since then, they invested £140M through FSG to LFC for anfield main stand expansion and to purchase players, now LFC are just paying them back at £7M per year since then. That's it, that's all the LFC owner have done to LFC, 7 years running and LFC have to be self sufficient.

It's funny when I read an Arsenal fan today banting LFC fans on social media that Liverpool (FSG) cannot compete financially with Arsenal and everybody agreed with him, nobody were mad, it's just accepted as fact now :laugh:
 
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Savant

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I am to the point where I don't even care. I just hope Klopp can work some more miracle again.

It's funny when I read an Arsenal fan today banting LFC fans on social media that Liverpool (FSG) cannot compete financially with Arsenal and everybody agreed with him, nobody were mad, it's just accepted as fact now :laugh:
I mean that’s all it is now isn’t it? I’m also starting to have a very bad feeling about how this summer is going to go.
 

JeffreyLFC

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I mean that’s all it is now isn’t it? I’m also starting to have a very bad feeling about how this summer is going to go.
I would not be surprised if Salah and Thiago are sold to finance this summer transfer spree.
 

S E P H

Cloud IX
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No fanbase should banter a club that won the CL, even if it was a fluke. Nonetheless, the Aston Villa thrashing was hilarious.
 

Savant

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I would not be surprised if Salah and Thiago are sold to finance this summer transfer spree.
I would have no problem if Thiago went. If they sell Salah, I’d be tendering my resignation if I was Klopp. Even if they got a nine figure fee for him, there’s no way they could re-invest that properly.

It’s becoming very clear that they picked the worst season to miss on UCL
 

S E P H

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Anyway, it seems like this Havertz to Arsenal thing will be finalized in the 60-65 MM £ range

I have most of the arsenal fans blocked so not sure if they are doing 180s on the mocking of havertz over the past few years.

I am disappointed. Chelsea have two 9s this season - seemingly with the soon to be acquired Jackson and Broja.
I am still furious until he proves me otherwise, the good thing is that I am open-minded so I have no problems changing my tune or saying I am wrong. It is just super weird to me that Arsenal thinks he's the "answer" out of all players and options available. I am not saying to go back in for Vlahovic, but you can do better than Kai. Hell, I rather spend 120 million using Lavia money and try to unsettle Osimhen instead of paying anything more than 50 million for Havertz which it seems it is heading towards. But what can I do? So, I gotta hope they know what they're doing instead.
 
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