Red Sox/MLB 2023 Regular Season VII - White Sox clean out the front office

[Johnnyduke]

So two separate things. Trading Mookie is not Chaim's fault. The return should have been better. Play hardball.

Love Betts and Bogearts but they don’t get deals from me they got

Betts 10/300 final offer
Bogearts 5/135 final offer

But by this logic your team will never be in the running for any premier free agent. I don't think the Red Sox should operate that way. Yes, some contracts will be bad at the end. That's part of doing business and knowing how to compensate for that.

 

[CDJ]

Re-litigating the Mookie trade for the 25,000th time I see. Glad I’m missing out

 

[Johnnyduke]

Re-litigating the Mookie trade for the 25,000th time I see. Glad I’m missing out

But you're not missing out? You just commented on it which means you read some of it. Never change.

 

[EvilDead]

If you were hired over Bloom would you have traded Mookie

Nope. Would've done everything possible to either win now or extend him.

Because they signed him to a massive contract extension that took him well past his last remaining contractual season, which was greatly shortened because of COVID.

Hope this helps!

Cool. Still doesn't explain why the Red Sox continued to low ball him all the times before they had no choice but to trade him, or even put in the time and effore to shop him around for the best possible deal. But hey, whatever makes you sleep at night.

 

[KrejciMVP]

Love Betts and Bogearts but they don’t get deals from me they got

Betts 10/300 final offer
Bogearts 5/135 final offer

they are core players and they are winners so you keep them. Much better than the shopping at the dollar tree approach the sox have now

 

[DKH]

they are core players and they are winners so you keep them. Much better than the shopping at the dollar tree approach the sox have now

I Have to set boundaries- otherwise chaos

 

[KrejciMVP]

I Have to set boundaries- otherwise chaos

I think John Henry owning multiple teams is chaos. A team like the Red Sox need more than an absentee landlord. you must know deep down he doesn't really care about the fans and success of the team anymore, just another asset.

 

[McGarnagle]

Re-litigating the Mookie trade for the 25,000th time I see. Glad I’m missing out

It's less re-litigating and more arguing in bad faith

 

[Johnnyduke]

It's less re-litigating and more arguing in bad faith

Expecting a better return is not a bad faith argument. As for whether Mookie would have signed here if the Sox offered same deal as Dodgers...none of us know. Not a one.

 

[EverettMike]

Expecting a better return is not a bad faith argument. As for whether Mookie would have signed here if the Sox offered same deal as Dodgers...none of us know. Not a one.

I think it's bad faith when you say "the 60 games thing is bullshit."

No, that's all a team was guaranteed to get from him. That hurt his trade value immensely, objectively speaking.

Now, it's more than fair to say, "they shouldn't have waited that long to trade him. they either should have signed him or moved him when he had greater value."

Clearly they royally f***ed up and we should discuss the specifics of how, but Bloom's hands were tied then encased in concrete when he was tasked with making the trade.

 

[Johnnyduke]

I think it's bad faith when you say "the 60 games thing is bullshit."

No, that's all a team was guaranteed to get from him. That hurt his trade value immensely, objectively speaking.

Now, it's more than fair to say, "they shouldn't have waited that long to trade him. they either should have signed him or moved him when he had greater value."

Clearly they royally f***ed up and we should discuss the specifics of how, but Bloom's hands were tied then encased in concrete when he was tasked with making the trade.

It's not bullshit but it just depends on the situation. If you traded him to Tampa or Oakland etc you would know right away that those teams can't afford him and he won't be staying. OK fine you take a lesser return if that is your only choice. But when you trade him to a team like the Dodgers who have oodles of money, it shouldn't be difficult to ascertain if Mookie would like to play in LA long term when you make the trade. Just be a little firmer, hang in there for a better return.

Or if the conclusion is that the return was based on Jeter Downs being a star then you have to place the blame on Chaim for that (sorry, not the COVID ruined Jeter Downs nonsense I have seen on here from certain people).

I blame ownership most of all for letting it get to that point but I don't think Bloom is blameless in what he got back. A bust prospect, a mid catcher and a decent outfielder who probably won't be here much longer. A GM doesn't get a pass because a highly rated prospect busts. You get blame for acquiring the wrong guys just like you get credit for acquiring the right ones.

 

[EverettMike]

It's not bullshit but it just depends on the situation. If you traded him to Tampa or Oakland etc you would know right away that those teams can't afford him and he won't be staying. OK fine you take a lesser return if that is your only choice. But when you trade him to a team like the Dodgers who have oodles of money, it shouldn't be difficult to ascertain if Mookie would like to play in LA long term when you make the trade. Just be a little firmer, hang in there for a better return. Or if the conclusion is that the return was based on Jeter Downs being a star then you have to place the blame on Chaim for that (sorry, not the COVID ruined Jeter Downs nonsense I have seen on here from certain people).

I know this isn't the main point of what you said, but why is that nonsense? Why is it nonsense to at least wonder how much disrupting a player's development for an entire year ended up being the difference?

It doesn't matter, still goes down as an L for Bloom, but it's worth considering and discussing. Certainly not bullshit.

 

[Johnnyduke]

I know this isn't the main point of what you said, but why is that nonsense? Why is it nonsense to at least wonder how much disrupting a player's development for an entire year ended up being the difference?

It doesn't matter, still goes down as an L for Bloom, but it's worth considering and discussing. Certainly not bullshit.

Because the only time I see it mentioned here is to explain why Jeter Downs is a bust. So every prospect that played during COVID must then be a bust? It just doesn't make sense to me. It's a convenient excuse.

 

[McGarnagle]

I just want people to give me some reasonable comparables to the Mookie trade. From what I can see over the past five years or so, lots of superstars are getting traded for packages of prospects and most of them are no better than what we have to show for it. And that's not even factoring in the David Price salary dump.

The Marlins didn't get anything of any value for either Stanton or Yelich. Nothing at all.

All Oakland traded Matt Olson, Matt Chapman, Frankie Montas, and Sean Manaea and all they have to show for it is a shitty catcher in Langeliers.

Juan Soto got Washington an average MLB shortstop along with a top-5 prospect in baseball who is still in AA and may or may not make it. But he had 2.5 seasons of control left when he was pawned off.

Honestly the closest comparable for what Bloom ended up with for Betts is Arizona getting Luke Weaver and Carson Kelly back for Goldschmidt. For a perennial MVP candidate they got a starting pitcher who was inconsistent but had a high ceiling for 3 1/2 years along with a league average catcher and some prospects that didn't really make it. If you change the word "pitcher" for "right fielder", it's exactly what the Red Sox got for Mookie. I know you're going to say "Mookie is better than Goldschmidt/plays a more important defensive position/etc." but then you can add in the cost of clearing Price's contract and we'll say it evens out.

I loved Mookie, we all loved Mookie. I wish he would've been a Red Sock for life. but once it was clear they couldn't come to terms with him, it was a business decision. I don't see why we have to keep arguing this.

 

[DKH]

I think John Henry owning multiple teams is chaos. A team like the Red Sox need more than an absentee landlord. you must know deep down he doesn't really care about the fans and success of the team anymore, just another asset.

He’s here - his wife actually got smart and told him anything you say will be used to shit all over you

Sox have 4 WS in 19 years team trending up and deep system

I’m good.

I would have kept Wacha & Eovoldi if they accepted 3 year deals and avoided Kluber at this point

Bogearts 5/135 my last best - yet most of my hardcore baseball friends say bad deal - but we share same birthday and personality so I have a soft spot

Henry has his blunders but 4 WS & the park is great compared to 1960 - 90’s

I have them 83-79 preseason and hopefully my record of underestimating Boston teams comes thru again

The Sox are getting to intersection they can maybe make a big FA signing

I’d rather go for mid level guys like Eovoldi, Eflin, and Delorozen than any big pitcher

Anyone has to be unfer 30 as well

 

[EverettMike]

Because the only time I see it mentioned here is to explain why Jeter Downs is a bust. So every prospect that played during COVID must then be a bust? It just doesn't make sense to me. It's a convenient excuse.

I can't speak for others, but I don't excuse Downs being a bust. It's sports and we keep score for a reason. I do think it's possible COVID ruined his development, though, just as it certainly ruined or hindered other prospects. I don't see how it couldn't have.

 

[Johnnyduke]

I can't speak for others, but I don't excuse Downs being a bust. It's sports and we keep score for a reason. I do think it's possible COVID ruined his development, though, just as it certainly ruined or hindered other prospects. I don't see how it couldn't have.

My point would be that not all prospects bombed out because of COVID. And I think if you're talented enough (that includes mentally) you can still rise above it. That's all.

 

[DKH]

I can't speak for others, but I don't excuse Downs being a bust. It's sports and we keep score for a reason. I do think it's possible COVID ruined his development, though, just as it certainly ruined or hindered other prospects. I don't see how it couldn't have.

I was a huge advocate of Downs in it - very surprised he is where he is today although 3 weeks ago I saw him with the Cardinals AAA team hit one out v Woo Sox

I’m curious about Mayer shoulder status - he was 1-23 with like 15 Wiffs when he went on IL

Not good

 

[Johnnyduke]

Now, if we keep hearing that the Sox have a top 3-5 farm system doesn't that mean you are in position to trade for a top talent without decimating your farm system? To me that is part of the point of building up a farm system.

I’m curious about Mayer shoulder status - he was 1-23 with like 15 Wiffs when he went on IL

Not good

Christ almighty. I'd say this is worth watching. As we know, prospects don't always develop/come through as expected.

 

[BostonBob]

Honestly the closest comparable for what Bloom ended up with for Betts is Arizona getting Luke Weaver and Carson Kelly back for Goldschmidt. For a perennial MVP candidate they got a starting pitcher who was inconsistent but had a high ceiling for 3 1/2 years along with a league average catcher and some prospects that didn't really make it.

It's actually turned out much better for Boston.

from yesterday's cbssports.com:

The Arizona Diamondbacks have had a busy weekend from a transactions perspective, including designating a pair of notable players for assignment. On Sunday, the D-Backs pressed the DFA button on catcher Carson Kelly, roughly a day after doing the same to former top outfield prospect Kristian Robinson.

Kelly, 29, originally joined the Diamondbacks as part of the winter 2018 trade that shipped first baseman Paul Goldschmidt to the St. Louis Cardinals. In parts of five seasons with Arizona, he batted .230/.316/.397 (93 OPS+) with 44 home runs and 153 RBI. His most productive season happened to be his first, as he posted a 112 OPS+ in 2019 that he's threatened just once since (in 2021).

Kelly's impending departure means that the book is nearly closed on the Goldschmidt trade from the Diamondbacks perspective. Right-hander Luke Weaver and infielder Andrew Young have long since left the organization. The last remaining piece of that deal is outfielder Dominic Fletcher, who the D-Backs selected with their acquired competitive-balance round pick. Fletcher is an outfielder with 28 MLB appearances.

It's fair to write that said trade has not worked out as desired for Arizona.

 

[CDJ]

I was a huge advocate of Downs in it - very surprised he is where he is today although 3 weeks ago I saw him with the Cardinals AAA team hit one out v Woo Sox

I’m curious about Mayer shoulder status - he was 1-23 with like 15 Wiffs when he went on IL

Not good

Downs walked it off for the Nats yesterday I believe

 

[GatorMike]

Betts deal is a bargain now, the contracts will keep going up.

People were saying the same sorts of things when guys like Albert Pujols and Miguel Cabrera and Giancarlo Stanton signed long-term deals. All of those deals turned painful. Go look up the top 25 or so largest contracts in MLB history. A shocking number of them turned out horribly.

Besides, I'm not convinced that contracts will keep going up. I think the RSN rights fees bubble has already started to burst, and I think a lot of cable networks are having second and third thoughts about how much they're spending on rights fees given how many are deciding to cut the cord. That's part of why you're already seeing games on Apple TV and Peacock.

But by this logic your team will never be in the running for any premier free agent. I don't think the Red Sox should operate that way. Yes, some contracts will be bad at the end. That's part of doing business and knowing how to compensate for that.

Yeah, I think the Red Sox are likely out on the idea of signing a premier free agent to a 12-year contract for ages 29-41.

Nope. Would've done everything possible to either win now or extend him.

If the reporting that the Red Sox offered Mookie 10-years, $300 million is accurate, that would have been the 2nd-largest contract in MLB history at the time it was offered. If he then countered at $400+ million, I have a hard time blaming ownership/management for believing that he was determined to get to free agency.

 

[McGarnagle]

Wander got officially placed on the MLB restricted list

This is not looking good for him

 

[Johnnyduke]

Yeah, I think the Red Sox are likely out on the idea of signing a premier free agent to a 12-year contract for ages 29-41.

So does that make Andrew Friedman dumb? (If you are actually talking Bogaerts I haven't really been talking about that one)

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

well his post makes more sense than this PR piece that John Henry could have written

It really doesn’t. Like not even close lmao