Red Sox/MLB 2023 Off-Season - Red Sox-Yankees trade

[McGarnagle]

The thing with managers is that it's a real long season and you need someone who can keep the clubhouse loose for 162 games, but also who can be a tactician who knows how to push the right buttons in October. Guys who can do both are rare (Bochy, Tito, maybe Tony La Russa). Otherwise you come across guys who are great for motivating the team through the dog days of the regular season but who find themselves being outfoxed in the post-season (Dave Roberts, Kevin Cash). Or the opposite where you have Joe Maddon who is great in-game (at least before the limits on pitching changes) but may burn out a club in the regular season.

Sometimes though the teams are so good that they can overcome a manager who isn't a strong tactician. Joe Torre wasn't ever really doing anything too advanced with in-game strategy, but he had an amazing roster with set roles and some of the best ever to do those roles, and he trusted them to do the job. Dusty Baker has made a lot of messes in October (including Monday), but they won it last year anyway. And I think the 2013 Sox won in spite of John Farrell, who made some real doozies of decisions even within the WS itself.

 

[GatorMike]

 

[GatorMike]

 

[RoccoF14]

This is interesting to me. I am sure Theo is beloved in Chicago but is he getting the heat for that? Or has he been gone long enough where they blame Jed Hoyer?

Neither Theo nor Hoyer really got heat for it, nor should they. The Cubs didn't have much pitching talent on their farm system when they got there, and instead of drafting pitching, they focused on position players and drafted guys like Schwarber, Baez, Bryant and also scored on some Venezuelan free agents (Contreras & Gleyber Torres). They also dumped what limited pitching talent they did have for additional players like Russell and Rizzo

Pretty much all their pitching during their WS run was either traded for (Arrieta, Chapman & Hendricks) or signed in Free Agency (Lester & Lackey). It just never was a priority for them and they ended up paying for it for a while...

 

[IveGotToBeMe]

Ok mods. Update the thread title to include "No new GM bashing until after he gets fired"

Never said that. Bash away. Just think the organization continues to back itself into a corner so it won’t necessarily be the new GM’s fault if things go poorly.

 

[Johnnyduke]

A good manager can elevate a team, while a poor one can sink it. Poor player management can be detrimental. Zimmer is maligned in many circles for exhausting the '78 Red Sox positional players, leading to the team's collapse down the stretch. The players and coaches turned against Valentine early in the 2012 season for generally being a jerk. To be fair, the 1980 U.S. Hockey Team didn't like Herb Brooks; however, one difference between him and Valentine is the players respected him. On the other hand, Francona is considered a players' manager. There were a lot of strong personalities that he had to manage. Some argue he didn't have to do much during a game. I wish Grady Little did a little more when managing Pedro in 2003 and McNamara when managing Buckner in 1986.

Melvin is an interesting case. While in Oakland, he was generally perceived as a manager who gets a lot out of his players. That perception was torpedoed in San Diego.

I was really referring to the current day manager where it feels like analytics and computer software make the decisions for them. The role of manager has been diminished in this era.

 

[Johnnyduke]

Never said that. Bash away. Just think the organization continues to back itself into a corner so it won’t necessarily be the new GM’s fault if things go poorly.

If things don't go well this time around then BOH, Sam Kennedy, Alex Cora, Eddie Romero and Craig Breslow can all pound sand as far as I'm concerned. I want Henry to sell the team but short of that there should be a complete cleanout if this team isn't in contention by end of 2025 .

 

[Donnie Shulzhoffer]

Never said that. Bash away. Just think the organization continues to back itself into a corner so it won’t necessarily be the new GM’s fault if things go poorly.

You just confirmed what you first stated.

 

[IveGotToBeMe]

You just confirmed what you first stated.

Ok, whatever. I get your shtick. Message board champion.

 

[N o o d l e s]

FWIW, I think Breslow was a good hire. The guy knows pitching, and the Sox desperately need that right now.

I hate the Cubs, but he did a really good job retooling their pitching prospects and developing talent. And believe me, if you think the Sox pitching prospect pool is thin, you should have seen Chicago's 5 years ago.....It was atrocious. They hadn't developed an arm since Kerry Wood/Mark Prior.

Now, they've developed a Cy Young candidate (Steele), developed Alzolay into a solid closer, and have 2 solid top-half rotation prospects ready to make the step up (Wicks & Horton). If he can replicate that in Boston, he'll be fine.

People are getting a little too bent out of shape because he's a relative unknown and this is his first gig. It was Chris Young's first gig in Texas as well. Both were players/pitchers, which I think is a plus.

And Ben Brown

 

[Donnie Shulzhoffer]

If things don't go well this time around then BOH, Sam Kennedy, Alex Cora, Eddie Romero and Craig Breslow can all pound sand as far as I'm concerned. I want Henry to sell the team but short of that there should be a complete cleanout if this team isn't in contention by end of 2025 .

Unfortunately you can’t fire the owner. They tarnished their own product and now getting the results of settling on someone who was the third guy in Chicago working remotely from home

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

Like the Breslow hire. He may be an unknown but he knows the game and is smart. All depends on what ownership will give for money.

 

[Chevalier du Clavier]

Sources: Yankees, Padres have had preliminary Juan Soto conversation

The Yankees have already had one preliminary conversation with the San Diego Padres this offseason about superstar outfielder Juan Soto, league sources say.

www.sny.tv

 

[Mione134]

They can have Soto. I want Shohei and Yammamoto.

 

[RoccoF14]

Unfortunately you can’t fire the owner. They tarnished their own product and now getting the results of settling on someone who was the third guy in Chicago working remotely from home

You see, as a neutral, that’s exactly what I can’t understand about Red Sox fans, and this “tarnished product” nonsense.

The ”product” they bought, hadn‘t won f***-all since World War I. In the last 20 years, they’ve won 4 championships. FOUR. My team has yet to win their first……and yet this ownership group has somehow committed a crime against humanity for wanting to make money off of a product they’ve somehow “tarnished”. What in the world am I missing here?

 

[Chevalier du Clavier]

Will Fleming weighs in on the Breslow hiring.

 

[KrejciMVP]

You see, as a neutral, that’s exactly what I can’t understand about Red Sox fans, and this “tarnished product” nonsense.

The ”product” they bought, hadn‘t won f***-all since World War I. In the last 20 years, they’ve won 4 championships. FOUR. My team has yet to win their first……and yet this ownership group has somehow committed a crime against humanity for wanting to make money off of a product they’ve somehow “tarnished”. What in the world am I missing here?

They've run WS managers and WS players out of town over the years, you'd have to be a sox fan to see how they've alienated fans. They are very comfortable putting a crap product on the field while charging every dollar they can. They hardly resemble the ownership group that loaded up in 04 with Schilling to end the curse. I hope they sell the team and go manage their Penguins or some soccer team, I don't trust a word they say.

 

[chizzler]

Wait for the ticket increase. Lol……

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

You see, as a neutral, that’s exactly what I can’t understand about Red Sox fans, and this “tarnished product” nonsense.

The ”product” they bought, hadn‘t won f***-all since World War I. In the last 20 years, they’ve won 4 championships. FOUR. My team has yet to win their first……and yet this ownership group has somehow committed a crime against humanity for wanting to make money off of a product they’ve somehow “tarnished”. What in the world am I missing here?

A lot.

They continue to raise prices and revenue while simultaneously crying poor and shedding salary.

They have entered Jeremy Jacobs territory where the on field production is irrelevant as long as the bottom line isnt effected.

The Red Sox have clearly become a line on an accounting sheet for the FSG corporation

They have made countless brain dead choices lately. They fired the reigning World Series GM, they dealt a 26 yr old home grown MVP as a sweetener to move a contract (technically Bloom did, but that deal doesn't happen without ownership signing off)

 

[Donnie Shulzhoffer]

Wait for the ticket increase. Lol……

They already did a few weeks ago.

 

[GatorMike]

They've run WS managers and WS players out of town over the years, you'd have to be a sox fan to see how they've alienated fans. They are very comfortable putting a crap product on the field while charging every dollar they can. They hardly resemble the ownership group that loaded up in 04 with Schilling to end the curse. I hope they sell the team and go manage their Penguins or some soccer team, I don't trust a word they say.

I would suggest that if they were "comfortable putting a crap product on the field", then Chaim Bloom would still be the General Manager.

I don't get why people keep bringing up the Penguins or Liverpool in connection with the Red Sox. There isn't one giant pot of money and every dollar that's given to Mo Salah or Sidney Crosby is somehow taken out of the Red Sox' budget. Lots of ownership groups own more than one pro sports franchise, and we never hear another word about it. I don't understand what sin FSG has committed by owning more than one team.

They continue to raise prices and revenue while simultaneously crying poor and shedding salary.

They have entered Jeremy Jacobs territory where the on field production is irrelevant as long as the bottom line isnt effected.

The Red Sox have clearly become a line on an accounting sheet for the FSG corporation

They have made countless brain dead choices lately. They fired the reigning World Series GM, they dealt a 26 yr old home grown MVP as a sweetener to move a contract (technically Bloom did, but that deal doesn't happen without ownership signing off)

They cut salary and went under the CBT threshhold on purpose in 2020 because the repeater penalties were becoming a real problem - not only financially, but from a competitive standpoint as well.

A fair number of Red Sox fans criticized them for going over the CBT threshhold in 2022.

I believe 2023 was another year in which they purposely reset the repeater penalties for competitive reasons. I also believe that was a Chaim Bloom decision.

I mean... I guess you could frame it that Mookie Betts was used as a "sweetener", but I'm not sure that makes any sense. Because David Price's deal had negative value in 2020. The Sox couldn't have traded Price for Verdugo, Downs, or even Connor Wong straight up at that point. The more accurate description would be that the Dodgers agreed to take half of David Price's contract as a sweetener to get the Sox to agree to deal Mookie Betts.

 

[McGarnagle]

You see, as a neutral, that’s exactly what I can’t understand about Red Sox fans, and this “tarnished product” nonsense.

The ”product” they bought, hadn‘t won f***-all since World War I. In the last 20 years, they’ve won 4 championships. FOUR. My team has yet to win their first……and yet this ownership group has somehow committed a crime against humanity for wanting to make money off of a product they’ve somehow “tarnished”. What in the world am I missing here?

One of the great enigmas of our time is Fenway Sports Group

I grew up in the Harrington/Yawkey Trust era. Some of us here are old enough to remember Jean and even Tom Yawkey's administrations. After 86 years of futility and tragedy on the field, if you told me an ownership group would come in and invest the capital into winning four championships in 14 years, I'd think that person would be lauded as a hero in this town. But they're just so detestable. What they did to Tito, the tone deaf PR campaigns, Don Orsillo, Henry's 2011 Felger and Mazz meltdown, the overall aloofness and the perception they only care about Liverpool and other shiny new toys. Very unlikable. But the results speak for themselves.

I don't have a positive view of Henry as a person, but you can't deny what they've accomplished.

 

[Johnnyduke]

You don't get a lifetime pass for previous success. Same goes for Bill Belichick. I give ownership credit for pulling plug on Bloom. Raising ticket prices? Embarrassing. The only way that is forgiven is if they go out and spend like they should and be a top 5 payroll team. If they do that I won't have any complaints until I see the team sucking again.

 

[Chevalier du Clavier]

I would suggest that if they were "comfortable putting a crap product on the field", then Chaim Bloom would still be the General Manager.

I don't get why people keep bringing up the Penguins or Liverpool in connection with the Red Sox. There isn't one giant pot of money and every dollar that's given to Mo Salah or Sidney Crosby is somehow taken out of the Red Sox' budget. Lots of ownership groups own more than one pro sports franchise, and we never hear another word about it. I don't understand what sin FSG has committed by owning more than one team.



They cut salary and went under the CBT threshhold on purpose in 2020 because the repeater penalties were becoming a real problem - not only financially, but from a competitive standpoint as well.

A fair number of Red Sox fans criticized them for going over the CBT threshhold in 2022.

I believe 2023 was another year in which they purposely reset the repeater penalties for competitive reasons. I also believe that was a Chaim Bloom decision.

I mean... I guess you could frame it that Mookie Betts was used as a "sweetener", but I'm not sure that makes any sense. Because David Price's deal had negative value in 2020. The Sox couldn't have traded Price for Verdugo, Downs, or even Connor Wong straight up at that point. The more accurate description would be that the Dodgers agreed to take half of David Price's contract as a sweetener to get the Sox to agree to deal Mookie Betts.

If the Sox had dipped below the threshold, they would have received picks 70 and 71 in the 2023 draft for Bogey and Nate. Since they were over, they received 133 and 134. That's the equivalent of about two rounds of players. They also lost out on $1 million in bonus pool money.

 

[Alicat]

The day the curse was broken. I still get emotional. Happy Anniversary.