2023 NHL Entry Draft Discussion

[Bleach Clean]

Like usual, your posts are just quack logic.

Why would the ideal have been to keep Horvat and then trade a more valuable 1st for Hronek? There was never a smart path that involved keeping both Horvat and JTM due to salary cap constraints. Sketch out for me how it's better to use a lower 1st for Hronek instead of a higher first for Hronek and Raty, plus whomever we draft.

What does it matter where we have been over the past 5 years, or three years, when projecting over the next 2? You honestly contend that filling the biggest hole in our lineup (top 4 RS dman) doesn't make a difference in how our best player views our future trajectory? Again, "EP should just sign now" is just simplistic quack logic.

The trade either improves us, or it doesn't. That's what will matter to EP. Not that we were a 25th place team 5 years ago under a different regime. Not that historically bad goaltending kept us from the playoffs this year. Not that we no longer have a 2nd 1st in the late teens early 20s.

To be honest, I'm not even sure what you are arguing. I take it you'd have preferred keeping the NYI 1st, but to what end? Restart a rebuild that fits your perception of what a rebuild should look like? Hope we get another pair of talents like EP and QH down the road sometime? In clear terms, what exactly are you arguing in this thread?

As for the draft, hope we don't end up with a winger. I'd probably take all wingers off the board with our #1.

For the draft: If the BPA is a winger, draft the winger (Juoelevi/Tkachuk).

They have a ton of dead cap (mostly Benning induced). Without it, they could have re-signed Horvat and brought Hronek in... Maybe include the higher pick to get DET to take back money as well? I don't know. Or, at least wait until the offseason to get a better sense of things and the pick is at its highest value.

My vision for what they need to do now incorporates their failed re-tool under Benning. They are bereft of assets and cap. Their management is mediocre. As a result, I'd be willing sacrifice 2~ years to gain cap and pipeline flexibility. Retain Pettersson-Hughes-Demko in the meantime and make smart moves around them. For example, secure Severson in FA instead of paying big for Hronek (they're going to have to pay a Free Agency price to keep him anyway).

How Pettersson views our future trajectory post Horvat/Hronek is unknown, is the point. Neither one of us knows. If the Hronek trade was at all a determinant, then I would expect good news to trickle in starting July 1st... (I'm not holding my breath). If Pettersson is deciding to stay or go, he's going to take his entire tenure here into account, as I would expect any smart individual to do.

 

[Szechwan]

Absolutely hilarious that people in this thread are saying "if it doesn't work, we rebuild in 2 years." "if Petey doesn't resign, we rebuild."

Bro what? This ownership is never going to rebuild. If they weren't willing to rebuild after the Sedins, why would anything be different?

The people screaming for a long term vision for team are taking issue with the way this franchise has been run since the day Aqua bought it. It was great when the team had the depth and pieces to be competitive around 2010, but that game plan cannot be the path forward 100% of the time.

It's not even a full rebuild being demanded, it's a request to acknowledge the reality of where this team is and take a measured approach moving forward.

There has been a SINGLE coaching change this season in the NHL. Every other team in the league that found themselves underperforming stuck with their guy because this year the payoff for underperforming could single handedly change a franchise faster than almost any other draft in the last 10 years. And for what? A late season run to 12th last? Is someone going to make an argument that the Nucks know better than every other franchise in the league?


If you need Bruce out, let Cull finish out the year. You don't think Hronek would be available at the draft if you were really interested? Detroit wants nothing to do with his next contract.

Like.. You can do the things you feel are necessary, but how about a little finesse rather than the button mashing we're seeing?

 

[DFAC]

I dont know whether to laugh or cry when Detroit drafts before us and pick Reinbacher

Probably a bit of both

 

[alternate]

Absolutely hilarious that people in this thread are saying "if it doesn't work, we rebuild in 2 years." "if Petey doesn't resign, we rebuild."

Bro what? This ownership is never going to rebuild. If they weren't willing to rebuild after the Sedins, why would anything be different?

The people screaming for a long term vision for team are taking issue with the way this franchise has been run since the day Aqua bought it. It was great when the team had the depth and pieces to be competitive around 2010, but that game plan cannot be the path forward 100% of the time.

It's not even a full rebuild being demanded, it's a request to acknowledge the reality of where this team is and take a measured approach moving forward.

There has been a SINGLE coaching change this season in the NHL. Every other team in the league that found themselves underperforming stuck with their guy because this year the payoff for underperforming could single handedly change a franchise faster than almost any other draft in the last 10 years. And for what? A late season run to 12th last? Is someone going to make an argument that the Nucks know better than every other franchise in the league?


If you need Bruce out, let Cull finish out the year. You don't think Hronek would be available at the draft if you were really interested? Detroit wants nothing to do with his next contract.

Like.. You can do the things you feel are necessary, but how about a little finesse rather than the button mashing we're seeing?

If Pettersson isn't happy with the direction of the team and refuses to re-sign, what choice would the franchise have?

 

[andora]

I have been with you mostly on your line of thinking.. but some of this is all over the place

For the draft: If the BPA is a winger, draft the winger (Juoelevi/Tkachuk).

They have a ton of dead cap (mostly Benning induced). Without it, they could have re-signed Horvat and brought Hronek in... Maybe include the higher pick to get DET to take back money as well? I don't know. Or, at least wait until the offseason to get a better sense of things and the pick is at its highest value.

What higher pick? If horvat is here we only have one.. i dont follow

My vision for what they need to do now incorporates their failed re-tool under Benning. They are bereft of assets and cap. Their management is mediocre. As a result, I'd be willing sacrifice 2~ years to gain cap and pipeline flexibility. Retain Pettersson-Hughes-Demko in the meantime and make smart moves around them. For example, secure Severson in FA instead of paying big for Hronek (they're going to have to pay a Free Agency price to keep him anyway).

How do we gain cap? Paying assets to move things and retaining.. really the only couple options.. so use assets that we have none of to gain cap.. and what are we moving to get the extra draft picks to help this two year setback. What money is freed up at what cost to throw money at severson as a 28 29 ufa? Hronek arguably already better and will likely be better long term and 3 yrs younger.. 3 yrs is a lot

How Pettersson views our future trajectory post Horvat/Hronek is unknown, is the point. Neither one of us knows. If the Hronek trade was at all a determinant, then I would expect good news to trickle in starting July 1st... (I'm not holding my breath). If Pettersson is deciding to stay or go, he's going to take his entire tenure here into account, as I would expect any smart individual to do.

Yes.. fingers crossed

 

[MS]

Absolutely hilarious that people in this thread are saying "if it doesn't work, we rebuild in 2 years." "if Petey doesn't resign, we rebuild."

Bro what? This ownership is never going to rebuild. If they weren't willing to rebuild after the Sedins, why would anything be different?

The people screaming for a long term vision for team are taking issue with the way this franchise has been run since the day Aqua bought it. It was great when the team had the depth and pieces to be competitive around 2010, but that game plan cannot be the path forward 100% of the time.

It's not even a full rebuild being demanded, it's a request to acknowledge the reality of where this team is and take a measured approach moving forward.

There has been a SINGLE coaching change this season in the NHL. Every other team in the league that found themselves underperforming stuck with their guy because this year the payoff for underperforming could single handedly change a franchise faster than almost any other draft in the last 10 years. And for what? A late season run to 12th last? Is someone going to make an argument that the Nucks know better than every other franchise in the league?


If you need Bruce out, let Cull finish out the year. You don't think Hronek would be available at the draft if you were really interested? Detroit wants nothing to do with his next contract.

Like.. You can do the things you feel are necessary, but how about a little finesse rather than the button mashing we're seeing?

If they're at a point in 2 years where a tank/rebuild is the obvious option and they don't do it, I'll criticize them for it. Same as I criticized them when they didn't do the right moves in that regard 2016-2019.

If they're at the point where they're at now where a tank/rebuild is an obviously stupid option, I'm not going to criticize them for it.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I have been with you mostly on your line of thinking.. but some of this is all over the place

What higher pick? If horvat is here we only have one.. i dont follow

To clarify, their only pick.

How do we gain cap? Paying assets to move things and retaining.. really the only couple options.. so use assets that we have none of to gain cap.. and what are we moving to get the extra draft picks to help this two year setback. What money is freed up at what cost to throw money at severson as a 28 29 ufa? Hronek arguably already better and will likely be better long term and 3 yrs younger.. 3 yrs is a lot

Yes.. fingers crossed

The likely way things play out here, long-term, is a full on rebuild. Down to the struts. Pettersson-Hughes-Demko out. New management. New owner maybe, hopefully. That's how it's shaping up here.

In the meantime, however, so long as Pettersson-Hughes-Demko are a going concern, I advocate for rebuilding around them, not re-tooling around them. This is because the current product is caught in the middle. They have key pieces, but they have little else. To get that 'else', they should liquidate what they can around the core, and leverage cap space to supplement (where possible). Sure, the pieces gotten in this way will not be as good as the pieces traded for, like Hronek/Severson, but it hedges things both ways. It gives the team a chance to extract something from the future while still maintaining team strength. But the key is that it prioritizes the future. Different from a re-tool because it doesn't scorch the earth trying to supplement, leaving the pipeline forever barren. Hope that explains it.

 

[DFAC]

To clarify, their only pick.



The likely way thinks play out here, long-term, is a full on rebuild. Down to the struts. Pettersson-Hughes-Demko out. New management. New owner maybe, hopefully. That's how things are shaping up here.

In the meantime, however, so long as Pettersson-Hughes-Demko are a going concern, I advocate for rebuilding around them, not re-tooling around them. This is because the current product is caught in the middle. They have key pieces, but they have little else. To get that 'else', they should liquidate what they can around the core, and leverage cap space to supplement (where possible). Sure, the pieces gotten in this way will not be as good as the pieces traded for, like Hronek/Severson, but it hedges things both ways. It gives the team a chance to extract something from the future while still maintaining team strength. But the key is that it prioritizes the future. Different from a re-tool because it doesn't scorch the earth trying to supplement, leaving the pipeline forever barren. Hope that explains it.

Its funny because usually teams will struggle to find the franchise center, dman and goalie. Yet we have all 3 but struggle to fill out the rest of the roster.

You would think that would be the easy part… just goes to show you that JBJB lucked out with the big 3 and how incompetent he was. I have no doubt HF Canucks collectively wouldve done a better job running the team

 

[Gstank]

Draft position means nothing if you dont draft the right player. End of story

Barlow and Sale, even though they are wingers have high upside.

Imo 6-15 is just a preference on position and play styles. the skill levels are all very similar and would be top 5-10 picks in any other draft class

 

[Cancuks]

Trade the pick to unload OEL or for a 24 or 25-ish physical defensive dman who can play with Hughes.

 

[Sharkbomb]

I'm strongly rooting for us taking David Reinbacher in the draft. The team needs all the help and depth it can get on defense and Reinbacher will be one of the first defensemen from the 2023 class to see NHL action.

 

[andora]

To clarify, their only pick.



The likely way things play out here, long-term, is a full on rebuild. Down to the struts. Pettersson-Hughes-Demko out. New management. New owner maybe, hopefully. That's how it's shaping up here.

In the meantime, however, so long as Pettersson-Hughes-Demko are a going concern, I advocate for rebuilding around them, not re-tooling around them. This is because the current product is caught in the middle. They have key pieces, but they have little else. To get that 'else', they should liquidate what they can around the core, and leverage cap space to supplement (where possible). Sure, the pieces gotten in this way will not be as good as the pieces traded for, like Hronek/Severson, but it hedges things both ways. It gives the team a chance to extract something from the future while still maintaining team strength. But the key is that it prioritizes the future. Different from a re-tool because it doesn't scorch the earth trying to supplement, leaving the pipeline forever barren. Hope that explains it.

It does somewhat but this part

Different from a re-tool because it doesn't scorch the earth trying to supplement, leaving the pipeline forever barren.

Is that a generic retool being referenced or our specific one being referenced?

 

[racerjoe]

It does somewhat but this part

Different from a re-tool because it doesn't scorch the earth trying to supplement, leaving the pipeline forever barren.

Is that a generic retool being referenced or our specific one being referenced?

He fails to also mention how both Hughes and Petey have pretty much said they won't stay for a rebuild. He is living in a fantasy world that doesn't exist.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

People are delusional if they think Reinbacher will still be available where the Nucks end up drafting.

I'm still pissed they traded their 2nd away (again).

The prospect pool will continue to be bottom 5 in the league with how they operate the draft.

As for the Nucks actual selection, C or D depending on who is still available.

 

[4Twenty]

He fails to also mention how both Hughes and Petey have pretty much said they won't stay for a rebuild. He is living in a fantasy world that doesn't exist.

So why keep the pick?

Hughes has 4 years left on his deal pal. He gets no say. Two more years of team control for Pettersson.

Hughes doesn’t even know what people mean about rebuild. He’s just tired of being on shitty teams.

You’ve gone on ad nauseum about how the management team matters. Why can’t we think this management are capable of pulling it off?


The fantasy land are folks like yourself telling everyone this team is a bubble team, even When that team only gets close to the bubble by piling up points to end seasons they’ve been eliminated from contention for 3-4 months.

This is the draft thread. It’s wild to me the folks who adore the Hronek move need to hedge their “must retool” mandate by needing to make a selection at 9th-12th overall. Another Podkolzin isn’t doing anything for Pettersson. It’s like people just expect stars. Seems illogical.

Why not trade it for another Hronek if the retool is the only way?

 

[Bitz and Bites]

Posters on here dunk on the Oilers for wasting prime years of McDrai by not supplementing them with good support players but want to do the same here, makes no sense.
Oilers have kept a number of their first and second rounders since drafting McDavid and have used them to draft Poolparty, Yamamoto, Broberg, Bouchard, Holloway, Bourgault, and Schaefer in the first and Benson, McLeod, and Lavoie in the second. I wouldn’t trade Hronek for any of them or even two of them, Hronek is miles better than any of those guys and plays a premium position.

Guys saying we should wait until July 1st for Severaon or whatever are dreaming. You can’t pin the future of a team on a bidding war for an older and inferior UFA who might have zero interest in playing here. Terrible idea.

 

[Bleach Clean]

It does somewhat but this part

Different from a re-tool because it doesn't scorch the earth trying to supplement, leaving the pipeline forever barren.

Is that a generic retool being referenced or our specific one being referenced?

Specific, because VAN took away a key future asset from a terrible pipeline to redistribute strength to another position (C to D) on a bad team.

 

[tradervik]

Found this analysis by the Athletic of the largest ranking gaps interesting. They looked at their two staff writers (Pronman and Wheeler) and McKenzie's mid-season list. Too bad they didn't include Button.

Biggest gaps (skaters)

PLAYER	HIGH RANKING	LOW RANKING	GAP
Tanner Molendyk	20 (Pronman)	62 (McKenzie)	42
Maxim Strbak	29 (Pronman)	63 (Wheeler)	34
Oliver Bonk	24 (Pronman)	56 (Wheeler)	32
Dmitriy Simashev	17 (Pronman)	48 (Wheeler)	31
Andrew Cristall	7 (Wheeler)	33 (Pronman)	26
Daniil But	8 (Pronman)	31 (Wheeler)	23
Jayden Perron	28 (Wheeler)	50 (McKenzie)	22
Gavin Brindley	25 (Wheeler)	43 (McKenzie)	18
Nate Danielson	5 (Pronman)	22 (Wheeler)	17
Samuel Honzek	10 (Pronman)	27 (Wheeler)	17
Riley Heidt	18 (Wheeler)	Outside top 34 (Pronman)	16+

 

[andora]

Specific, because VAN took away a key future asset from a terrible pipeline to redistribute strength to another position (C to D) on a bad team.

Ok

Ok fair enough.. however the description is hyperbolic in my opinion

If they make 2 or 3 trades like the hronek one i could give it to you.. but one

 

[Gstank]

Found this analysis by the Athletic of the largest ranking gaps interesting. They looked at their two staff writers (Pronman and Wheeler) and McKenzie's mid-season list. Too bad they didn't include Button.

Biggest gaps (skaters)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]PLAYER[/TH]
[TH]HIGH RANKING[/TH]
[TH]LOW RANKING[/TH]
[TH]GAP[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tanner Molendyk[/TD]
[TD]20 (Pronman)[/TD]
[TD]62 (McKenzie)[/TD]
[TD]42[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maxim Strbak[/TD]
[TD]29 (Pronman)[/TD]
[TD]63 (Wheeler)[/TD]
[TD]34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Oliver Bonk[/TD]
[TD]24 (Pronman)[/TD]
[TD]56 (Wheeler)[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dmitriy Simashev[/TD]
[TD]17 (Pronman)[/TD]
[TD]48 (Wheeler)[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Andrew Cristall[/TD]
[TD]7 (Wheeler)[/TD]
[TD]33 (Pronman)[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Daniil But[/TD]
[TD]8 (Pronman)[/TD]
[TD]31 (Wheeler)[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jayden Perron[/TD]
[TD]28 (Wheeler)[/TD]
[TD]50 (McKenzie)[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gavin Brindley[/TD]
[TD]25 (Wheeler)[/TD]
[TD]43 (McKenzie)[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nate Danielson[/TD]
[TD]5 (Pronman)[/TD]
[TD]22 (Wheeler)[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Samuel Honzek[/TD]
[TD]10 (Pronman)[/TD]
[TD]27 (Wheeler)[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Riley Heidt[/TD]
[TD]18 (Wheeler)[/TD]
[TD]Outside top 34 (Pronman)[/TD]
[TD]16+[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Mckenzie usually polls scouts so it isnt surprising that the under sized high skilled players are ranked lowest in his rankings. I believe Pronman swings on upsides which is why he is often ranking players the highest

 

[tradervik]

Mckenzie usually polls scouts so it isnt surprising that the under sized high skilled players are ranked lowest in his rankings. I believe Pronman swings on upsides which is why he is often ranking players the highest

Yep. I'd guess Pronman is more the outlier than Wheeler. I took a quick look at Button's list and he and Wheeler are pretty close in general.

 

[Gstank]

Danielsson, Dvorsky, Heidt are names that I expect to see rise up the draft boards after the u18

Bedards

Michkov

Carlsson
Fantilli

Smith
Barlow
Benson
Sale
(maybe 2 Smith and Benson becomes a top 6 C but I think they are all sure fire top 6 Fs)

Dvorsky
Danielsson
Heidt
Reinbacher
ASD
are the next group because they all project as 2/3C's and Top 4 D

Moore
Leonard
Wood
Honzak
Yager
2nd/3rd line players

So the tiers are
1
2
3-4
5-8
9-13
14-18

 

[racerjoe]

So why keep the pick?

Hughes has 4 years left on his deal pal. He gets no say. Two more years of team control for Pettersson.

Hughes doesn’t even know what people mean about rebuild. He’s just tired of being on shitty teams.

You’ve gone on ad nauseum about how the management team matters. Why can’t we think this management are capable of pulling it off?


The fantasy land are folks like yourself telling everyone this team is a bubble team, even When that team only gets close to the bubble by piling up points to end seasons they’ve been eliminated from contention for 3-4 months.

This is the draft thread. It’s wild to me the folks who adore the Hronek move need to hedge their “must retool” mandate by needing to make a selection at 9th-12th overall. Another Podkolzin isn’t doing anything for Pettersson. It’s like people just expect stars. Seems illogical.

Why not trade it for another Hronek if the retool is the only way?

What are you even talking about? You are trying to make a point on something I never did. I have said they shouldn’t have the mind set to keep or trade the pick. They should be weighing what they are getting in return vs what the pick is.

I am fantasy land yet you are making thinks up. That’s what is actually wild.

 

[Gstank]

When looking at tiers I think its important to know that 1/2 players will probably move up a tier or two after 2/3 seasons fo development but its to separate the probability of them hitting their ceiling. Players like Barlow and Sale will probably be available with our pick while the chances Heidt, Danielsson, ASD and Reinbacher moving up are quite high because of their position.

Barlow and Sale, even though they dont fit a need are probably a teir above all the C/D but will fall do to their positional value. I dont think we arein a positions where we can afford to take a 2C over a top line Winger. As we still have some gaps in the top 6

 

[4Twenty]

What are you even talking about? You are trying to make a point on something I never did. I have said they shouldn’t have the mind set to keep or trade the pick. They should be weighing what they are getting in return vs what the pick is.

I am fantasy land yet you are making thinks up. That’s what is actually wild.

Cool story.