2023 NHL Entry Draft Discussion

[tradervik]

Craig's List: Adam Fantilli, Leo Carlsson jostle for 2nd behind Connor Bedard in NHL Draft ranking | TSN

Regina Pats centre Connor Bedard is the runaway favourite to be selected No. 1 overall in June, but the No. 2 spot is open for discussion according to TSN Director of Scouting Craig Button.

www.tsn.ca

Craig's list dropped it's always an interesting read.

Reinbacher at 26, so much for a “consensus top 8” tier.

Hey guys, the management thread is that away.

 

[MS]

There's no meat to your argument. It's pure delusion to think a 2 year re-tool will lead to a sustainable winner, given their position. But you've propped it up as the only rational course by using logical fallacies to support your claim.

A rebuild around that core does not exclude bringing in supplemental players, or trading existing players for positional needs, you're just not trading key future assets to do it.

The dumbest thing imaginable is to ignore the reality of their position while formulating a plan. You saying they can blow it up in 2 years if it fails is basically saying blow it up in 2 years.

I can't really say anything more than that I think your take is atrocious both in terms of the nuts and bolts of it as well as atrocious in terms of being aligned with the real-world realities of running a professional sports team.

The single hardest thing to do in pro sports is find elite players. It's f***ing hard. Detroit has just tanked for 7 years and now are rebuilding the rebuild because it failed to hit on any elite talent. Arizona has been rebuilding for a decade plus for the same reason.

When you have elite talent, you do everything possible to build around them and retain them. This is just simply f***ing elementary. Flushing out the roster and adding a 3C and another top-4 defender is piddling compared to getting this core in place in the first place.

You'd be trading Elias Pettersson right now, then?

Edit : and the one thing I'll add before leaving this discussion or taking it elsewhere because it is the draft thread is that I profoundly disagree that it's 'delusion' to thing that you can build a sustainable winner around Pettersson/Hughes/Demko (plus Miller/Kuznetsov/Hronek).

 

[Josepho]

Reinbacher at 26, so much for a “consensus top 8” tier.

Hey guys, the management thread is that away.

Button is always extremely unconventional with his rankings, but in general this board does seem overly-convinced that Reinbacher will go top 8 when it's far from a sure thing.

 

[SelltheTeamFrancesco]

Another list with Moore outside the top 10. Weird feels like I'm overrating him, or the scouts are underrating him.

A lot of lists are just starting to come out Elite Prospects has him at 6 ahead of Smith. A lot of lists are a little dated as they were mid-season rankings that came out 3 months ago. Moore to me has really improved a lot in that time. On the consolidated list he is still number #12 so not that low, Reinbacher who everyone on here likes including me is #19.

 

[MS]

Button is always extremely unconventional with his rankings, but in general this board does seem overly-convinced that Reinbacher will go top 8 when it's far from a sure thing.

Yeah, it's very much a 'this board' thing rather than something that's universally believed.

 

[credulous]

If a retool move is a good one is it still a shortcut move?

Specifically if a transaction is good and works out but is a retool move..

a good trade is a good trade. you're thinking tactically when i'm talking about strategy

the canucks strategy to be good as soon as possible and worry about the future later is a bad strategy. whether hronek for a first and second is "good value" doesn't change that it's a bad strategy

 

[Snatcher Demko]

The way drafted players turn out is "unconventional" 5 years hence from any draft ranking, which tend to mirror each other anyways.

I always get a chuckle when people deride Craigslist or other draft rankings that deviate from the consensus. At the very least it makes for better discussion.

 

[andora]

a good trade is a good trade. you're thinking tactically when i'm talking about strategy

the canucks strategy to be good as soon as possible and worry about the future later is a bad strategy. whether hronek for a first and second is "good value" doesn't change that it's a bad strategy

I get what you are saying.. i disagree on calling it a bad strategy prior to execution succeeding or failing

Thwir strategy also appears to focus on current and future based on actual moves made..

 

[credulous]

I get what you are saying.. i disagree on calling it a bad strategy prior to execution succeeding or failing

Thwir strategy also appears to focus on current and future based on actual moves made..

i'm not talking about what management are doing. i'm talking about what people here think the canucks should do ("go all in")

 

[andora]

i'm not talking about what management are doing. i'm talking about what people here think the canucks should do ("go all in")

oh, the original post i quoted didn't make that distinction - fair enough

 

[Diversification]

So the players aren't remotely excited by the (now remote) possibility of playing with Bedard or Fantilli? Or recognize that acquiring either would immensely improve the team?

Probably not. Some might feel threatened that some upstart is going to compete for their minutes. Others just want to pad their stat lines for the next contract. Others still want to succeed with the teammates they have already.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I can't really say anything more than that I think your take is atrocious both in terms of the nuts and bolts of it as well as atrocious in terms of being aligned with the real-world realities of running a professional sports team.

The single hardest thing to do in pro sports is find elite players. It's f***ing hard. Detroit has just tanked for 7 years and now are rebuilding the rebuild because it failed to hit on any elite talent. Arizona has been rebuilding for a decade plus for the same reason.

When you have elite talent, you do everything possible to build around them and retain them. This is just simply f***ing elementary. Flushing out the roster and adding a 3C and another top-4 defender is piddling compared to getting this core in place in the first place.

You'd be trading Elias Pettersson right now, then?

No, the argument is about what to do around Pettersson-Hughes-Demko, not in the place of those three.

Because in reality, Pettersson is going to make a decision on this franchise on a host of factors, not just because the team traded for a mid-pairing dman. Same for Demko.

I think the reason this argument is flying over your head is because we are both advocating for non-standard solutions, but you think you're solution is standard (it's not) and you think mine is a standard rebuild (it's not). It's been repeat post after repeated post with no understanding of the other poster's position. Really bad form.

This team is caught in the middle. Nothing standard is going to fit. It's about assessing what is the best mode for the franchise either with Pettersson or without. Because again, you thinking that one action is going to lead to him being retained vs another is just pure speculation. The Canucks cannot afford to speculate, they have to hedge their bets and build toward a stronger foundation than what they have now, aside from Pettersson re-signing.

 

[God]

I've liked Craig's lists ever since he rated Virtanen like 42nd or something in 2014 because he didn't think he was smart enough.

 

[alternate]

a good trade is a good trade. you're thinking tactically when i'm talking about strategy

the canucks strategy to be good as soon as possible and worry about the future later is a bad strategy. whether hronek for a first and second is "good value" doesn't change that it's a bad strategy

This doesn't make any sense. They essentially traded a 28 year old UFA to be center for a 25 year old RFA to be RHD and a 20 year old C. Took one asset and used it to fill our biggest need, and added a quality futures piece at a high value position.

Seems like an ideal balance between adding to the current core and adding to the pipeline.

Raty and whomever we draft with our #1 pick will almost certainly be 2 of our top 3 or 4 prospects in the system (depending on who one still consideres a prospect).

As MS has correctly laid out multiple times, building around EP and QH is the only realistic (as in, based on reality) path forward. EP has said he wants to play for a winning team...what makes it more likely he signs an extension, Hronek or the #20OA draft pick that will be multiple years away?

If Pettersson won't sign an extension, then he gets dealt for a king's ransom, along with Demko, Kuze and Hughes and the next rebuild gets a supercharged start.

 

[Gstank]

This doesn't make any sense. They essentially traded a 28 year old UFA to be center for a 25 year old RFA to be RHD and a 20 year old C. Took one asset and used it to fill our biggest need, and added a quality futures piece at a high value position.

Seems like an ideal balance between adding to the current core and adding to the pipeline.

Raty and whomever we draft with our #1 pick will almost certainly be 2 of our top 3 or 4 prospects in the system (depending on who one still consideres a prospect).

As MS has correctly laid out multiple times, building around EP and QH is the only realistic (as in, based on reality) path forward. EP has said he wants to play for a winning team...what makes it more likely he signs an extension, Hronek or the #20OA draft pick that will be multiple years away?

If Pettersson won't sign an extension, then he gets dealt for a king's ransom, along with Demko, Kuze and Hughes and the next rebuild gets a supercharged start.

Side Note but if Petey doesnt resign the 2026 Draft is looking really good right now and that is the draft where we may have multiple 1st. Its the Mckenna, Kosick draft

 

[tradervik]

I've liked Craig's lists ever since he rated Virtanen like 42nd or something in 2014 because he didn't think he was smart enough.

43rd. Here's the list: 2013-14 Craig's List

Some obvious hits and misses but the Canucks would have drafted Ehlers if they had used his ranking.

One more note: Button's final ranking won't be out until June so who knows, maybe he'll have Reinbacher in the top 10. He moved Sanheim from 32 to 8 in the list cited above.

 

[andora]

This doesn't make any sense. They essentially traded a 28 year old UFA to be center for a 25 year old RFA to be RHD and a 20 year old C. Took one asset and used it to fill our biggest need, and added a quality futures piece at a high value position.

Seems like an ideal balance between adding to the current core and adding to the pipeline.

Raty and whomever we draft with our #1 pick will almost certainly be 2 of our top 3 or 4 prospects in the system (depending on who one still consideres a prospect).

As MS has correctly laid out multiple times, building around EP and QH is the only realistic (as in, based on reality) path forward. EP has said he wants to play for a winning team...what makes it more likely he signs an extension, Hronek or the #20OA draft pick that will be multiple years away?

If Pettersson won't sign an extension, then he gets dealt for a king's ransom, along with Demko, Kuze and Hughes and the next rebuild gets a supercharged start.

Nevermind the dickinson into bloom as well.. pick is gone but salvaged it with a kid who has had a solid season good tools and is developing who would essentially be like a mid round pick this year anyhow

 

[racerjoe]

sometimes i feel like i'm losing my mind watching the same people who mock edmonton for failing to build around mcdavid and draisatl by making foolish short term moves now argue there is only one choice for the canucks and that is to build around pettersson and hughes by making short term moves

Isn't it the opposite idea of the Oilers? I mean what did they do to help those guys? Don't they always pick the wrong players to bring in? They also didn't trade thier first for how long?

 

[andora]

Isn't it the opposite idea of the Oilers? I mean what did they do to help those guys? Don't they always pick the wrong players to bring in? They also didn't trade thier first for how long?

They better hope some piece of their goaltending succeeds, and somehow they become better at 5on5 if they want sustained success in my opinion

I dont see a barrage of youth coming in and they dont have a lot of money either again next season

 

[VanJack]

Obviously Button isn't very high on Reinbacher. Every other draft site I've seen has him as a consensus top-10 pick.

But if he does fall to 25th or 26th, the Wings will happily scoop him up with the pick they got from the Canucks via the Islanders.

 

[Bleach Clean]

This doesn't make any sense. They essentially traded a 28 year old UFA to be center for a 25 year old RFA to be RHD and a 20 year old C. Took one asset and used it to fill our biggest need, and added a quality futures piece at a high value position.

Seems like an ideal balance between adding to the current core and adding to the pipeline.

We've heard this before in the Benning era. Targeting the good mid-aged player to cheat the rebuild. Re-tool into sweet oblivion.

Anyway, the ideal for the current squad would have been to retain Horvat and bring in Hronek at the draft. Deal the 1st then (VAN's own). After all, it's when the value of that 1st is probably highest and they head into the offseason looking to shed cap (they have to anyway because they're capped out).

Raty and whomever we draft with our #1 pick will almost certainly be 2 of our top 3 or 4 prospects in the system (depending on who one still consideres a prospect).

As MS has correctly laid out multiple times, building around EP and QH is the only realistic (as in, based on reality) path forward. EP has said he wants to play for a winning team...what makes it more likely he signs an extension, Hronek or the #20OA draft pick that will be multiple years away?

If Pettersson won't sign an extension, then he gets dealt for a king's ransom, along with Demko, Kuze and Hughes and the next rebuild gets a supercharged start.

In the last 5 years, this is a 25th placed team. During the past 3 years, it's a 20th placed team. Does Hronek + Beauvillier in and Horvat out change that, I don't know? Neither does Pettersson. And so, one move is very unlikely to swing his perception either way, so let's not pretend that it does. Because if it does, then he should be expected to sign now right?

 

[alternate]

We've heard this before in the Benning era. Targeting the good mid-aged player to cheat the rebuild. Re-tool into sweet oblivion.

Anyway, the ideal for the current squad would have been to retain Horvat and bring in Hronek at the draft. Deal the 1st then (VAN's own). After all, it's when the value of that 1st is probably highest and they head into the offseason looking to shed cap (they have to anyway because they're capped out).





In the last 5 years, this is a 25th placed team. During the past 3 years, it's a 20th placed team. Does Hronek + Beauvillier in and Horvat out change that, I don't know? Neither does Pettersson. And so, one move is very unlikely to swing his perception either way, so let's not pretend that it does. Because if it does, then he should be expected to sign now right?

Like usual, your posts are just quack logic.

Why would the ideal have been to keep Horvat and then trade a more valuable 1st for Hronek? There was never a smart path that involved keeping both Horvat and JTM due to salary cap constraints. Sketch out for me how it's better to use a lower 1st for Hronek instead of a higher first for Hronek and Raty, plus whomever we draft.

What does it matter where we have been over the past 5 years, or three years, when projecting over the next 2? You honestly contend that filling the biggest hole in our lineup (top 4 RS dman) doesn't make a difference in how our best player views our future trajectory? Again, "EP should just sign now" is just simplistic quack logic.

The trade either improves us, or it doesn't. That's what will matter to EP. Not that we were a 25th place team 5 years ago under a different regime. Not that historically bad goaltending kept us from the playoffs this year. Not that we no longer have a 2nd 1st in the late teens early 20s.

To be honest, I'm not even sure what you are arguing. I take it you'd have preferred keeping the NYI 1st, but to what end? Restart a rebuild that fits your perception of what a rebuild should look like? Hope we get another pair of talents like EP and QH down the road sometime? In clear terms, what exactly are you arguing in this thread?

As for the draft, hope we don't end up with a winger. I'd probably take all wingers off the board with our #1.

 

[Cupless44]

I personally have made it a clear top 10. Changed it from a top 7 because i think 8,910 have really stood out to me. Obviously with different tiers. Players with high floors and high ceilings. After 10 I feel either you get a high floor player or high ceiling player hard to find players with both.

Bedard
Fantili
Mitchkov
Carlsson

Smith
Reinbacher
Benson

Moore
Heldt
Leonard

Might as well forget about your top 10 because he Canucks are not going to be drafting there

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

The present regime seems unlikely to take a smaller player under 6'0" even if he plays "big" like Moore.

Looking at Button's list and where the Canucks are now tragically likely to finish between 10-14 in the rankings, there is a "Sea of Granlunds" until Tom Willander, a 6'1" RHD at 16, then 6'1" Danielson, 6'3"Wood and 6'1"Dvorsky.

If 6'2" Reinbacher is gone, one of these players seems to be a likely pick.

 

[TomWillander1RD]

I initially hated the trade since I was dreaming about a scenario in which the Canucks end up receiving top 5 pick in 2024 draft (was expecting Isles to falter after Barzal injury). I still think it was a risky move considering the situation but fortunately has turned out better. Nonetheless, I totally understand management's perspective.

By the time the horrendous contracts expire and the draft pick becomes an impact player, a number of EP's and QH's prime years would have been wasted. EP and QH are not just elite players that are difficult to obtain. They are the best C and D this franchise has ever had, and they deserve some respect by getting better supporting cast. This team's defense after QH was a disaster and although Hronek is just one player, it would greatly improve the overall D.

Also, the chance to hit a homerun in the latter half of 1st round is pretty slim. Having additional 1st round pick won't suddenly make this team a potential future Stanley Cup winner.

I see some people are disappointed by losing 3% chance to land Bedard. I decided to be positive and think adding Hronek would give the team 3% chance to win Stanley Cup.