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HF Habs: 2023 NHL Draft part 2

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I think both are true. Most teams have multiple star forwards and have a really good D core (the exception for both are St-Louis - no star forwards and Pitts in 2007 - no good defensemen).

Ideally we want both and the argument I'm trying to make is that I prefer having more offense and lacking defense vs having really good defense at the expense of offense.

Also FWIW, I don't think Reinbacher is a #1. I think he becomes a really good defensively sound #2 like Guhle does. Great skaters, has size, contributes offensively, but is not the dynamic star defenseman that you would ideally want.
There is an argument going around that the key is low risk play in your end, sort of like what Therrien was pushing, weirdly. D who don’t necessarily pass well but get the puck out. Then guys who can forecheck and win the puck.

The habs don’t need another mid-pairing D. If they take Reinbacher he better be a star.
 
I agree with you that the biggest need is a superstar forward, someone who can carry the team on his back night after night.

I think Bedard(obviously) and Michkov are the blue chip there. I think Fantilli and Carlsson also have this potential but i feel they are still a considerable tier below the other two guys. I don't think it is out of reach for Smith or Benson but i think we are more into a speculative spot there and i think these guys are leaning toward low-tier 1st liner/strong 2nd liner.

I honestly think Reinbacher has a case at 5 and he has 25min/g ++ 1st pair, 1D attributes.

Personally, i would not mind him over Smith or Dvorsky or Benson.

I agree that BPA is not objective at all. Its purely subjective. We should use another term like Preferred Prospects.
Agree with every word said.

If Michkov is off the board then anything goes at 5 but it’s highly speculative and definitely not a clear BPA. They better be sure that Reinbacher is better than magic mitts Benson and 2ppg Smith.
 
Agree with every word said.

If Michkov is off the board then anything goes at 5 but it’s highly speculative and definitely not a clear BPA. They better be sure that Reinbacher is better than magic mitts Benson and 2ppg Smith.
It will be a terrible look if they mess this selection. Whoever they select, and especially if they don't pick Michkov.
 
This is from the other thread.

So where is this Reinbacher at 5 stuff coming from?

Is it literally a case of drafting for perceived need and not BPA like some of you insisted today?
He’s the consensus top D in the draft. He put up great numbers in a men’s league, has solid traits across the board and is a RD. The logic is understandable. I just think he’s more of a mid pair guy than a 1D and that’s not what you take 5th overall in an excellent draft.

He’s an 8-12 range guy if you need a RD. People love to hockeydb scout and look at his numbers, but as the scouts said, a lot of those points were junk second assists. If he didn’t have those numbers would anyone want him at 5? No.
 
This is from the other thread.

So where is this Reinbacher at 5 stuff coming from?

Is it literally a case of drafting for perceived need and not BPA like some of you insisted today?
Because some of us believe that he is a legitimate option at 5 based on what we've scene and the tools/skills he has.

You're perfectly entitled to follow the public rankings, that's fine and perfectly understandable for folks who don't have as much time to waste as I do. But not everyone bases their scouting and lists purely on what the media and public services churn out.

Maybe we're completely wrong and he is only a top 4 d. Maybe we're right and he turns into a #1. That's the fun of scouting, opinions vary and nobody truly knows what the hell is gonna happen. But I'm not going to dismiss my opinions of Reinbachers ability because the consensus doesn't agree with it.

Also I just want to point out because I've seen it a few times in the last page or so, his offense is not mostly secondary assists. He had 12 primary assists versus 7 secondary.
 
There is an argument going around that the key is low risk play in your end, sort of like what Therrien was pushing, weirdly. D who don’t necessarily pass well but get the puck out. Then guys who can forecheck and win the puck.

The habs don’t need another mid-pairing D. If they take Reinbacher he better be a star.
There’s only one guy you know that will be a star @5OA and that is Michkov. That’s it. Nothing else… All the others have deficits in their game that need to be overcome to graduate from a top-6 F to star. And D’s unless it’s Pronger you only know what you have a few years down the road. It’s always a bit of a crapshoot.
 
Because some of us believe that he is a legitimate option at 5 based on what we've scene and the tools/skills he has.

You're perfectly entitled to follow the public rankings, that's fine and perfectly understandable for folks who don't have as much time to waste as I do. But not everyone bases their scouting and lists purely on what the media and public services churn out.

Maybe we're completely wrong and he is only a top 4 d. Maybe we're right and he turns into a #1. That's the fun of scouting, opinions vary and nobody truly knows what the hell is gonna happen. But I'm not going to dismiss my opinions of Reinbachers ability because the consensus doesn't agree with it.

Also I just want to point out because I've seen it a few times in the last page or so, his offense is not mostly secondary assists. He had 12 primary assists versus 7 secondary.
Ds are too often a crapshoot. Aside from the monster elite Ds, it’s very long to learn the position and you have more Ds at the all star game drafted 25,35 and 45 than forwards. What does Reinbacher have more than all the other Ds drafted 5 to 12 these past 20 years?
 
Ds are too often a crapshoot. Aside from the monster elite Ds, it’s very long to learn the position and you have more Ds at the all star game drafted 25,35 and 45 than forwards. What does Reinbacher have more than all the other Ds drafted 5 to 12 these past 20 years?
If you identify a kid that you think can be a top player, you don't pass on them because maybe you can get lucky on one later.

Sure, we can throw darts later on and hope one hits. Maybe we get lucky and find a top pair D. Maybe we don't and we end up like the leafs because we only have forwards and wouldn't use high up draft capital on dmen.
 
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If you identify a player that you think can be a top player, you don't pass on them because maybe you can get lucky on one later.

Sure, we can throw darts later on and hope one hits. Maybe we get lucky and find a top pair D. Maybe we don't and we end up like the leafs because we used all our high end picks on skilled forwards.
Jiricek was drafted 6OA in a bad draft. All the attributes of a Top-2 were there visible in him before the draft. 6’3. A litteral canon from the point. An offensive monster that would go end to end. Very strong and very physical. Would deck guys left and right. Right handed. Total no-brainer. Goes 6OA. He wasn’t even worthy of a 5OA in 2022

Now we are going for a D like Reinbacher that has Jiricek’s qualities to a lesser degree. It’s a historical draft with high-profile forwards. And we draft this guy at 5. Maybe I’m missing something but what quality does he have over what Jiricek had already shown over and over again before the 2022 draft? We would draft this guy at 5 over a Forward that would have gone #1 in 2022.
 
He’s the consensus top D in the draft. He put up great numbers in a men’s league, has solid traits across the board and is a RD. The logic is understandable. I just think he’s more of a mid pair guy than a 1D and that’s not what you take 5th overall in an excellent draft.

He’s an 8-12 range guy if you need a RD. People love to hockeydb scout and look at his numbers, but as the scouts said, a lot of those points were junk second assists. If he didn’t have those numbers would anyone want him at 5? No.
As someone who had Seider ranked 4th in his draft year, I can tell you that this kid has alot of upside as well, he is just so damn strong in all aspects of the game and the IQ high end level.

Some of those supposed scouts quotes are totally laughable, especially the one saying he has no physicality to his game, thats actually the exact opposite, kid can crush players all over the ice and is absolutely great at seperating his opponents from the puck, no clue what the guy was watching, probably working for the Arizona Coyotes and the one who recommanded his GM to move up 1st round for Lamoureux...

The habs NEED offensive talent.
Habs need everything, they need a top RHD more than a soft pts producer thats for sure.
 
There tends to be a small surprise in the top 5 of most drafts... a guy slips or a guy jumps up. Usually the guys who slip are small (eg Caulfield) and the ones who jump up are C's or D (eg Hayton & Nemec)... I wonder if that will happen this year?
 
Jiricek was drafted 6OA in a bad draft. All the attributes of a Top-2 were there visible in him before the draft. 6’3. A litteral canon from the point. An offensive monster that would go end to end. Very strong and very physical. Would deck guys left and right. Right handed. Total no-brainer. Goes 6OA. He wasn’t even worthy of a 5OA in 2022

Now we are going for a D like Reinbacher that has Jiricek’s qualities to a lesser degree. It’s a historical draft with high-profile forwards. And we draft this guy at 5. Maybe I’m missing something but what quality does he have over what Jiricek had already shown over and over again before the 2022 draft? We would draft this guy at 5 over a Forward that would have gone #1 in 2022.
If I'm the one drafting and Reinbacher is my BPA then why do I care what happened last year? I'm not going to pass on a potential 1D just because there was one last year and I didn't take him.

Yeah, it's a very strong draft for forwards, but in my eyes the slam drunks are Bedard, Fantilli, Carlsson and Michkov and it's likely none of them are there when we pick. At that point I personally like Reinbacher more than the rest. I think he can be our best defenseman, whereas I'm not convinced that Smith, Benson, whoever will be our best forward.

Regarding your Reinbacher/Jiricek comparison, I think Jiricek is probably a bit better offensively. I think Reinbacher is more well rounded, better defensively, and a better skater. And part of the reason Jiricek fell to where he did was due to questions of his all around game, as well as his knee injury that left some concerned about how it would affect his already somewhat questionable skating.

Just my opinion.
 
Jiricek was drafted 6OA in a bad draft. All the attributes of a Top-2 were there visible in him before the draft. 6’3. A litteral canon from the point. An offensive monster that would go end to end. Very strong and very physical. Would deck guys left and right. Right handed. Total no-brainer. Goes 6OA. He wasn’t even worthy of a 5OA in 2022

Now we are going for a D like Reinbacher that has Jiricek’s qualities to a lesser degree. It’s a historical draft with high-profile forwards. And we draft this guy at 5. Maybe I’m missing something but what quality does he have over what Jiricek had already shown over and over again before the 2022 draft? We would draft this guy at 5 over a Forward that would have gone #1 in 2022.
Healthy knees until this week. Jiricek would have gone top 3 if he had been able to play more. One more reason not to reach for him at 5.
 
As someone who had Seider ranked 4th in his draft year, I can tell you that this kid has alot of upside as well, he is just so damn strong in all aspects of the game and the IQ high end level.

Some of those supposed scouts quotes are totally laughable, especially the one saying he has no physicality to his game, thats actually the exact opposite, kid can crush players all over the ice and is absolutely great at seperating his opponents from the puck, no clue what the guy was watching, probably working for the Arizona Coyotes and the one who recommanded his GM to move up 1st round for Lamoureux...


Habs need everything, they need a top RHD more than a soft pts producer thats for sure.
I had Seider 5th if I recall, loved him.

Reinbacher is not Seider though. The tools aren’t on that level. Seider was a unicorn, guys that size (6’4 bigger than Reinbacher) shouldn’t have that level of agility, puck handling, and playmaking. Reinbacher doesn’t have those skills at that level.

I’ve said it before, but Reinbacher is a Guhle type- maybe even not quite that good though right handed. Very good prospect, just not a guy you take at 5 in a draft this good.
 
As someone who had Seider ranked 4th in his draft year, I can tell you that this kid has alot of upside as well, he is just so damn strong in all aspects of the game and the IQ high end level.

Some of those supposed scouts quotes are totally laughable, especially the one saying he has no physicality to his game, thats actually the exact opposite, kid can crush players all over the ice and is absolutely great at seperating his opponents from the puck, no clue what the guy was watching, probably working for the Arizona Coyotes and the one who recommanded his GM to move up 1st round for Lamoureux...

Agree, I just don't understand people who don't see the upside.
 
Okay in summary you think Reinbacher and Smith and Benson are on the same tier and close enough to each other to warrant direct comparison. That’s fair enough!

It doesn’t seem like the pro/hobby amateur scouting community agrees with your ranking of Reinbacher— or am I missing something?
It's mostly just from my own dumb guy scouting, I haven't honestly read too much of the public stuff yet, have just been watching more video of players during downtime at work and waiting for the final rankings. A lot of my interest in him comes from watching Guhle's development, and from watching late 30s Shea Weber on one leg still producing tons offensively for this team, I'm just more bullish on these types of players that tilt the ice and make smart plays even if the flash isn't there. I was pretty lukewarm on the Guhle pick at the time particularly because I read some public stuff about him having limited offensive upside which was "confirmed" by the point totals. And then by D+1 I realized I was dead wrong and he's blossomed offensively since then.

Reinbacher isn't exactly the same thing because he's showing more of that good offensive decision-making now rather than as a D+3, but Guhle's development has made me much more bullish on this type of prospect where the hands/skill isn't eye-popping but all the other tools are there. In Reinbacher's case I just see a guy that has a really smart well-rounded game and profile with great mobility, good size/physicality, aggression off the puck, smart offensive playmaking skills that I think he can learn to use more like Guhle did, etc. I find him very effective at creating zone entries and making smart moves off the puck, which combined with him just being generally good/skilled at everything else gives him a really tantalizing projection to me because the floor is high and you only need to pencil in some improvement in one or two areas to envision a really good big minutes defenceman. I honestly consider him an upside pick more than a floor pick, I think there's a chance he really pops and becomes a No. 1.
 
That athletic article about Reinbacher is f***ing crazy. A scout called him a "not physical and stick on puck player". Its as if he hasn't watched a second of him.

Then he says he has a bunch of secondary assists? Literally 12 of his 19 assists are primary?

I wanna know who this scout is and ridicule him.

Stop believer what you read on prospects and watch them, its incredible how f***ing horrendous the information available is.
 
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