HF Habs: 2023 NHL Draft part 2

[Doublechin]

Leonard gets a +2 inches mental buff because somewhere, someday a guy described his play as "powerforward" and now everyone assumes hes big, or something.

He's at a maximum a marginally better skater/shooter than Danielson, Danielson probably takes him everywhere else.

IQ and 2 way game ? What does that even mean ?

Again, it's pretty clear he's getting overrated on intangible basis. And I absolutely hate to be the person to say that because Im probably the one that hyped up Leonard the most during most of the year.

Intangibles?
51 goals in 57 games
Golden goal and a dominating U18s but ok...intangibles

If anything I'd say Danielson is overrated due to intangibles by the Pronmans of this world

 

[Fantomas]

But no one thought Tkachuk had the elite upside at the draft either.. but Leonard has tools and has shown growth that indicates its certainly a possibility.

It's rare to have anyone eclipse 100 points.. Matthew Tkachuk is a rare player and he was available at 7th overall.

It's not true that no one thought that. Some people did, while others overlooked what was there.

I can't really speak to what people thought. That's all hearsay. But I can speak to my own observations and I think Habs would be making a mistake talking themselves into taking Leonard, whose similarities to Tkachuk are more style than upside.

There are five guys with wild upside in this draft and the Habs are in an excellent position to pounce on whoever's left. Instead I'm seeing indications that both management and fans are willing to talk themselves into accepting Leonard or Reinbacher. Yuck.

 

[WeThreeKings]

It's not true that no one thought that. Some people did, while others overlooked what was there.

I can't really speak to what people thought. That's all hearsay. But I can speak to my own observations and I think Habs would be making a mistake talking themselves into taking Leonard, whose similarities to Tkachuk are more style than upside.

There are five guys with wild upside in this draft and the Habs are in an excellent position to pounce on whoever's left. Instead I'm seeing indications that both management and fans are willing to talk themselves into accepting Leonard or Reinbacher. Yuck.

I'd love to see where credible people thought that Matthew Tkachuk would be a 100+ point player. If that was a thought, he would have been in conversation for 1st overall. That was never the case.

 

[Fantomas]

I'd love to see where credible people thought that Matthew Tkachuk would be a 100+ point player. If that was a thought, he would have been in conversation for 1st overall. That was never the case.

See, instead of analyzing Leonard closely you're making dubious comparisons between Leonard and Tkachuk which are really devoid of substance. Leonard isn't Tkachuk because he's gritty and because he might be drafted at 5-6.

 

[Trabdy2]

Plenty, sure. I think Leonard would be a nice pick lower than where the Habs are picking. It's no insult to him.

The conversation here is a little different though. Does he actually have elite upside (a la Tkachuk) or not. I think not.

It's hard to say. I don't think many people figured Tkachuk was going to ever score 100+points. If scouts generally thought he had that upside, I don't think he was falling below #3 in his year (Matthews and Laine being being thought of at the time to have 40-50+ goal potential).

It's hard to gauge Leonard's potential because of all the strong dimensions he has in his game. He's a dual threat physical player, who skates and reads the game very well, and he drives the inside lane as confidently as pretty much anyone in the draft. He's got so many qualities that are highly projectable to the NHL, and he could grow some or all of qualities to become a serious force.

That being said, I don't mind Smith at #5 at all. His playmaking and vision are incredible, and if the Habs pick him I won't be unhappy (I've already mourned the fact we aren't taking Michkov).

 

[McGees]

Hughes often talks about picking players that have the mental fortitude to handle the Montreal market. I'm sure they are looking at a guy at 5 that they think fills that role better than others and their meetings during combine are very important to them.

Also I think at this point it is really Reinbacher vs Leonard.

 

[Jack Skellington]

Hughes often talks about picking players that have the mental fortitude to handle the Montreal market. I'm sure they are looking at a guy at 5 that they think fills that role better than others and their meetings during combine are very important to them.

Also I think at this point it is really Reinbacher vs Leonard.

Well I sincerely Hughes actually selects players because they're the best at hockey rather than because they have the mental fortitude to handle our market. Maybe if the Habs stop selecting busts in the top 5 they won't have to endure our big scary media guys like *checks notes* Eric Engels.

 

[Mrb1p]

Hughes will jump through hoops to select his idea of a good player.

 

[WeThreeKings]

See, instead of analyzing Leonard closely you're making dubious comparisons between Leonard and Tkachuk which are really devoid of substance. Leonard isn't Tkachuk because he's gritty and because he might be drafted at 5-6.

No, what I am doing is pushing back against a stance you have that they are not comparable prospects at the time of their draft year. Of course, they are different people and they don't play the exact same way. If you have an issue with a player comparison because they aren't twins, then that is more on the fact you are taking the comparison to heart too much.

Nobody is Matthew Tkachuk. But Matthew Tkachuk wasn't looked at as what he has become, otherwise he would have gone a lot higher in his draft year than he did.

That is what we are looking to do, project players that might have that development. You seem to have it in your head that there's 5 guys who are going to be these 100 pt players that Matthew Tkachuk is and Leonard isn't one of them, so he would be a bad pick. But the likelihood is that none of them ever sniff that. Matthew Tkachuk is a rare case not a common one.

If you want to go back to analyzing Leonard, then let's analyze Leonard.

Here is EP's scout on why they ranked Leonard ahead of Smith (someone you are grouping in as this top 5 we can't pass on)

I don't have much insight on Gauthier (one of the guys I haven't had many viewings of) but Leonard is such an impressive player. I think he will continue to increase in value as time roars on. When you look at the interaction and blend of his tools -- the skating (explosiveness, motor), the pro-level shooting, small and large-ice handling, even the deception used in transition, you already have a hell of a player. Then layer upon elite sense and so many physical attributes -- it's an easy sell. One of the true power forwards of this draft, I think we were most impressed with how much more he added to his game throughout the season. Growth is huge for us, comparing the start of the season to the end of the season performances, and it's clear that Leonard had levelled up in terms of incorporating more nuance into his game. We don't think it's too much of a reach when we placed him at 6. The floor is high and the upside, in our opinion, is ridiculous. Teams win with impact players of his archetype, and if an organization decided that's what they want early in the order, I can't knock that decision at all.

At 3:00 they talk about Leonard, who they ranked ahead of Smith:

• They all loved him and had most confidence in him
• Not just that he's safer, they like his upside
• His playmaking was hidden as Perreault and Smith had the puck more.
• When he had chances to make plays, he manipulated and deceived defenders.
• Like his shot a lot, one of the best in draft
• Super high grade on hockey IQ
• Sees ice well, aware and creative
• Physical skills - hits everything there, puck protection
• Complete player
• Snuggerud's development with Cooley at Minnesota as an example of how he grew and think the same will happen to Leonard.

And here's the growth of his game.
He's physical. He's nasty. He wants the puck. He takes puck battles personally. The skating is really good, a lot of power, he drives to the middle of the ice. He makes everything happen for that line by being the defensive conscience, the puck retrieval and puck protection guy, and on top of that, he has silky hands, a high end shot and a growing playmaking game.

Ryan Leonard can play every way you want him to. He can play a skilled game. He can play a defensive game. He can play a physical game.

This is a legitimate player who has many tools and has the offensive ability and growth to really explode.

 

[Paddy17]

No, what I am doing is pushing back against a stance you have that they are not comparable prospects at the time of their draft year. Of course, they are different people and they don't play the exact same way. If you have an issue with a player comparison because they aren't twins, then that is more on the fact you are taking the comparison to heart too much.

Nobody is Matthew Tkachuk. But Matthew Tkachuk wasn't looked at as what he has become, otherwise he would have gone a lot higher in his draft year than he did.

That is what we are looking to do, project players that might have that development. You seem to have it in your head that there's 5 guys who are going to be these 100 pt players that Matthew Tkachuk is and Leonard isn't one of them, so he would be a bad pick. But the likelihood is that none of them ever sniff that. Matthew Tkachuk is a rare case not a common one.

If you want to go back to analyzing Leonard, then let's analyze Leonard.

Here is EP's scout on why they ranked Leonard ahead of Smith (someone you are grouping in as this top 5 we can't pass on)




At 3:00 they talk about Leonard, who they ranked ahead of Smith:

• They all loved him and had most confidence in him
• Not just that he's safer, they like his upside
• His playmaking was hidden as Perreault and Smith had the puck more.
• When he had chances to make plays, he manipulated and deceived defenders.
• Like his shot a lot, one of the best in draft
• Super high grade on hockey IQ
• Sees ice well, aware and creative
• Physical skills - hits everything there, puck protection
• Complete player
• Snuggerud's development with Cooley at Minnesota as an example of how he grew and think the same will happen to Leonard.

And here's the growth of his game.
He's physical. He's nasty. He wants the puck. He takes puck battles personally. The skating is really good, a lot of power, he drives to the middle of the ice. He makes everything happen for that line by being the defensive conscience, the puck retrieval and puck protection guy, and on top of that, he has silky hands, a high end shot and a growing playmaking game.

Ryan Leonard can play every way you want him to. He can play a skilled game. He can play a defensive game. He can play a physical game.

This is a legitimate player who has many tools and has the offensive ability and growth to really explode.

The closer we get to the draft, the more it looks like Leonard is going to be their guy at 5. There has been a lot of smoke about their interest in him since the U18's.

 

[Vachon23]

Still didn't decided who I want but I think I'm entering in the Ryan Leonard bandwagon. To much think I like about this player and he's exactly the type of player I love

 

[WeThreeKings]

Still didn't decided who I want but I think I'm entering in the Ryan Leonard bandwagon. To much think I like about this player and he's exactly the type of player I love

He's the type of player that gets undervalued cause he does all the other things for a highly skilled line.

But its not like we don't have highlights of his high skill level either.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Still didn't decided who I want but I think I'm entering in the Ryan Leonard bandwagon. To much think I like about this player and he's exactly the type of player I love

He definitely fits the identity of the team that HuGo are trying to build.

 

[Vachon23]

He's the type of player that gets undervalued cause he does all the other things for a highly skilled line.

But its not like we don't have highlights of his high skill level either.

I did go rewatch many games to have a better idea of Smith (I found myself to hard on him so wanted to take an other look) and Leonard.

And the progression of Ryan Leonard between October in April is what make me enter the bandwagon. He took his game at whole other level offensively, I saw him manipulate defence, creating plays, changing shooting angle.

Some associate way too much 2 way game and physicality to less offensive tools, yes something he won't make the play that will amaze you but he's doing the right play

 

[Paddy17]

No, what I am doing is pushing back against a stance you have that they are not comparable prospects at the time of their draft year. Of course, they are different people and they don't play the exact same way. If you have an issue with a player comparison because they aren't twins, then that is more on the fact you are taking the comparison to heart too much.

Nobody is Matthew Tkachuk. But Matthew Tkachuk wasn't looked at as what he has become, otherwise he would have gone a lot higher in his draft year than he did.

That is what we are looking to do, project players that might have that development. You seem to have it in your head that there's 5 guys who are going to be these 100 pt players that Matthew Tkachuk is and Leonard isn't one of them, so he would be a bad pick. But the likelihood is that none of them ever sniff that. Matthew Tkachuk is a rare case not a common one.

If you want to go back to analyzing Leonard, then let's analyze Leonard.

Here is EP's scout on why they ranked Leonard ahead of Smith (someone you are grouping in as this top 5 we can't pass on)




At 3:00 they talk about Leonard, who they ranked ahead of Smith:

• They all loved him and had most confidence in him
• Not just that he's safer, they like his upside
• His playmaking was hidden as Perreault and Smith had the puck more.
• When he had chances to make plays, he manipulated and deceived defenders.
• Like his shot a lot, one of the best in draft
• Super high grade on hockey IQ
• Sees ice well, aware and creative
• Physical skills - hits everything there, puck protection
• Complete player
• Snuggerud's development with Cooley at Minnesota as an example of how he grew and think the same will happen to Leonard.

And here's the growth of his game.
He's physical. He's nasty. He wants the puck. He takes puck battles personally. The skating is really good, a lot of power, he drives to the middle of the ice. He makes everything happen for that line by being the defensive conscience, the puck retrieval and puck protection guy, and on top of that, he has silky hands, a high end shot and a growing playmaking game.

Ryan Leonard can play every way you want him to. He can play a skilled game. He can play a defensive game. He can play a physical game.

This is a legitimate player who has many tools and has the offensive ability and growth to really explode.

MSL will love a guy that not only brings grit in his game, but also high IQ. He understands how to play the game. He plays on a line with Smith and Perreault... Of course he won't play like them! A guy with no understanding of the game will just try to play his one unique game all the time, no matter who he plays with.

Hockey IQ is not just about making fancy plays and passes. It's about knowing what to do in context of developing plays on the ice. You can see it from a player's play selection in different situations. Making the right play is not sexy sometimes. When you need to drive the net, you drive the net. When you need to shoot, you shoot. When there's a better pass than a shot, you make the pass. The NHL is not the Harlem Globetrotters' tour.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Leonard's puck handling reminds me of Caufield's. I think people who doubt his skill level are out to lunch, just like they were out to lunch on Brady T.

Just because a guy plays with jam doesn't take away from his offensive skill. Leonard is a skill player who has grit, not the other way around.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Lol Carlsson is like if you fused Kotkaniemi and Galchenyuk into an actual good player

Doesn't that make him twice more likely to hit bustville?

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

If Leonard was 6’2” I’d get the hype. But at 5’11 he’s not going to be stronger than a lot of the guys he’s battling in the NHL like he is right now.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Leonard's puck handling reminds me of Caufield's. I think people who doubt his skill level are out to lunch, just like they were out to lunch on Brady T.

Just because a guy plays with jam doesn't take away from his offensive skill. Leonard is a skill player who has grit, not the other way around.

He's not the 5th best player in the draft, IMO. But I would be excited to have him on the team.

 

[Goldenhands]

If Leonard was 6’2” I’d get the hype. But at 5’11 he’s not going to be stronger than a lot of the guys he’s battling in the NHL like he is right now.

Leonard wont have any issue dealing with the physicality of the NHL, it might be an issue long term if injuries hit him given his play style, but it sure wont stop him to win his puck battles, crash the net, playing inside, protecting the puck ect. He is strongly built and plays with the same edge and sandpaper RHP do or prime Gallagher did. He is a bigger and more skilled RHP, he clearly belongs to the discussion at 5 OV and would be a fantastic pick IMO. Reinbacher, Dvorsky or Leonard, Im going to be pretty happy with any of them.

 

[The Great Weal]

He's not the 5th best player in the draft, IMO. But I would be excited to have him on the team.

As would I, but that means we need to tank for like another 3 years to get that real offensive dynamo because Slaf/Mesar/Leonard/Hrabal would be just *fart sound* as our compensation in the 1st round for sucking badly these 2 years.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Lol Carlsson is like if you fused Kotkaniemi and Galchenyuk into an actual good player

I wouldn't say that. Both KK and Galchenyuk had many of the same flaws including skating, lack of power, cement hands in traffic and entitlement/lack of resilience.

If you fuse them together, you probably get something worse than both of them separately.

 

[HabsForHire]

KK is not in the same stratosphere in terms of talent as Smith.

Smith has PPG+ potential, Leonard while very good has not.

The pick will be whoever remains out of Mitchkov/Smith. If anyone else is picked, Hughes/Gorton needs to be shown the door before the 1st round is done.

I disagree but that's ok

 

[HabsForHire]

No, what I am doing is pushing back against a stance you have that they are not comparable prospects at the time of their draft year. Of course, they are different people and they don't play the exact same way. If you have an issue with a player comparison because they aren't twins, then that is more on the fact you are taking the comparison to heart too much.

Nobody is Matthew Tkachuk. But Matthew Tkachuk wasn't looked at as what he has become, otherwise he would have gone a lot higher in his draft year than he did.

That is what we are looking to do, project players that might have that development. You seem to have it in your head that there's 5 guys who are going to be these 100 pt players that Matthew Tkachuk is and Leonard isn't one of them, so he would be a bad pick. But the likelihood is that none of them ever sniff that. Matthew Tkachuk is a rare case not a common one.

If you want to go back to analyzing Leonard, then let's analyze Leonard.

Here is EP's scout on why they ranked Leonard ahead of Smith (someone you are grouping in as this top 5 we can't pass on)




At 3:00 they talk about Leonard, who they ranked ahead of Smith:

• They all loved him and had most confidence in him
• Not just that he's safer, they like his upside
• His playmaking was hidden as Perreault and Smith had the puck more.
• When he had chances to make plays, he manipulated and deceived defenders.
• Like his shot a lot, one of the best in draft
• Super high grade on hockey IQ
• Sees ice well, aware and creative
• Physical skills - hits everything there, puck protection
• Complete player
• Snuggerud's development with Cooley at Minnesota as an example of how he grew and think the same will happen to Leonard.

And here's the growth of his game.
He's physical. He's nasty. He wants the puck. He takes puck battles personally. The skating is really good, a lot of power, he drives to the middle of the ice. He makes everything happen for that line by being the defensive conscience, the puck retrieval and puck protection guy, and on top of that, he has silky hands, a high end shot and a growing playmaking game.

Ryan Leonard can play every way you want him to. He can play a skilled game. He can play a defensive game. He can play a physical game.

This is a legitimate player who has many tools and has the offensive ability and growth to really explode.

Can we pin this post ?

 

[Vachon23]

If Leonard was 6’2” I’d get the hype. But at 5’11 he’s not going to be stronger than a lot of the guys he’s battling in the NHL like he is right now.

You don't need to be big to hit hard

Look at Dustin Brown or prime Cal Clutterbuck