HF Habs: 2023 NHL Draft part 2

[Doublechin]

Recent Matthew Tkachuk hype mostly because people see similarities. Absolutely no indication Leonard has this kind of skill level, or anywhere close.

Tkachuk was not seen as this super skilled forward either by most.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Tkachuk dominated the OHL and absolutely obliterated the playoffs with the Knights the year he got drafted. Leonard just not on the same level and if this is the guy the Habs have decided to draft you should be worried.

Leonard dominated in his peer group. What else did he need to do?

Produce highly in the USHL? Yep.
Produce highly in the USNDTP? Yep.
Produce highly in the U-18s? Yep.
Produce highly against NCAA competition? Yep.

He's also 3-4 inches shorter. Tkachuk couldn't play his current game at 6ft 200lbs.

Yeah I've never seen linebackers or safeties at Leonard's size in the NFL blow up people physically.

 

[Draft]

Leonard dominated in his peer group. What else did he need to do?

Produce highly in the USHL? Yep.
Produce highly in the USNDTP? Yep.
Produce highly in the U-18s? Yep.
Produce highly against NCAA competition? Yep.



Yeah I've never seen linebackers or safeties at Leonard's size in the NFL blow up people physically.

Are hits why we'd draft Leonard?

The closest comparables I can think of would be guys like Meier and Landeskog. He can definitely be a successful, physical NHL player, but the Tkachuk comparisons are off-base.

 

[KevSkillz4]

Ryan Leonard is a fantastic consolation prize if Habs don't want to draft Michkov, yes, Michkov have 100 pts potential in NHL, but Leonard have 70 pts + per season potential with hard working, grit, physical ability in his game.

I'm 100% team Ryan Leonard if Will Smith isn't there at 5.

People need to be happy about the future of Habs.

 

[Fantomas]

Leonard dominated in his peer group. What else did he need to do?

Produce highly in the USHL? Yep.
Produce highly in the USNDTP? Yep.
Produce highly in the U-18s? Yep.
Produce highly against NCAA competition? Yep.

Hope it works out. I don't have a crystal ball, but I just don't see the upside.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Are hits why we'd draft Leonard?

The closest comparables I can think of would be guys like Meier and Landeskog. He can definitely be a successful, physical NHL player, but the Tkachuk comparisons are off-base.

It is part of why we would draft Leonard.

Of course he's not Tkachuk, but he does approach the game in a similar fashion.

Just people people get compared to a player doesn't mean they are a genetic twin composed in a lab and put on skates. It just means there is stylistic similarities.

Hope it works out. I don't have a crystal ball, but I just don't see the upside.

You don't see the upside?

Watch some tape, listen to people talk about him, there's plenty of upside there.

 

[Nicko999]

For people preferring Leonard to Smith... have you not learned your lesson.

Kk instead of Brady
Slaf instead of Cooley
And now Leonard over Smith???

If you have too many small guys in a few years, you can trade some for grid when you actually have a better idea of your team's strengths and weaknesses. There is ZERO reason to draft someone based on grid or physicality at 5th overall. You can do that with the late 1st. The needs you have now or not gonna the needs in 5+ years when we are ready to compete.

Or else you end up with Therrien's perfect team of grinders.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

For people preferring Leonard to Smith... have you not learned your lesson.

Kk instead of Brady
Slaf instead of Cooley
And now Leonard over Smith???

If you have too many small guys in a few years, you can trade some for grid when you actually have a better idea of your team's strengths and weaknesses. There is ZERO reason to draft someone based on grid or physicality at 5th overall. You can do that with the late 1st. The needs you have now or not gonna the needs in 5+ years when we are ready to compete.

Or else you end up with Therrien's perfect team of grinders.

I don't think the KK vs Tkachuk aspect is really relevant here, Tkachuk was seen as having a similar upside to Leonard at the time of his draft, but with less of a scoring touch.

 

[Mrb1p]

I thought I was one of the biggest Leonard supporter pre u-18s, I was one of the first one to have him top 10. Now out of nowhere, from the hype machine alone, he's a top 5 pick, lol.

Love Leonard and if he's the pick, just like Slaf, I know Ill love him when he gets to the Habs, but god Ill be pissed we pass on anyone above him.

Ill say this though.

If were talking about Leonard, why not Yager ? Why not Danielson ? Why not Barlow ? Why not Wood ?

What does Leonard do thats better than these guys ?

 

[morhilane]

I thought I was one of the biggest Leonard supporter pre u-18s, I was one of the first one to have him top 10. Now out of nowhere, from the hype machine alone, he's a top 5 pick, lol.

Love Leonard and if he's the pick, just like Slaf, I know Ill love him when he gets to the Habs, but god Ill be pissed we pass on anyone above him.

Ill say this though.

If were talking about Leonard, why not Yager ? Why not Danielson ? Why not Barlow ? Why not Wood ?

What does Leonard do thats better than these guys ?

I think there are a few things going for Leonard right now:
- scouts looked at his development curve this season (since it's the time of the year they come up with their final list) and found it one of the best of the draftees
- everyone who saw him at the draft thinks he looks like a physically solid hockey player already
- everyone who talked to him at the combine really likes how he respond/behave

I haven't read anything about Yager, Danielson, Barlow, Wood from the combine. Anyone has seen anything about them?

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

I thought I was one of the biggest Leonard supporter pre u-18s, I was one of the first one to have him top 10. Now out of nowhere, from the hype machine alone, he's a top 5 pick, lol.

Love Leonard and if he's the pick, just like Slaf, I know Ill love him when he gets to the Habs, but god Ill be pissed we pass on anyone above him.

Ill say this though.

If were talking about Leonard, why not Yager ? Why not Danielson ? Why not Barlow ? Why not Wood ?

What does Leonard do thats better than these guys ?

I'd say Leonard is more creative than anyone not named Wood there, and a much better skater than Wood.

I'd have them

Leonard
Wood
Yager
Barlow
Danielson

 

[HabsForHire]

For people preferring Leonard to Smith... have you not learned your lesson.

Kk instead of Brady
Slaf instead of Cooley
And now Leonard over Smith???

If you have too many small guys in a few years, you can trade some for grid when you actually have a better idea of your team's strengths and weaknesses. There is ZERO reason to draft someone based on grid or physicality at 5th overall. You can do that with the late 1st. The needs you have now or not gonna the needs in 5+ years when we are ready to compete.

Or else you end up with Therrien's perfect team of grinders.

Tell me you know nothing about him, without telling me you know nothing about him. Taking leonard over smith = taking Tkachuk over KK.
But that's just my opinion it's OK to disagree

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Tell me you know nothing about him, without telling me you know nothing about him. Taking leonard over smith = taking Tkachuk over KK.
But that's just my opinion it's OK to disagree

I don't think Smith-KK is a good comparison either, seeing as how KK was known to have limited offensive upside as well.

Better example might be Cozens over Zegras

 

[Mrb1p]

I think there are a few things going for Leonard right now:
- scouts looked at his development curve this season (since it's the time of the year they come up with their final list) and found it one of the best of the draftees
- everyone who saw him at the draft thinks he looks like a physically solid hockey player already
- everyone who talked to him at the combine really likes how he respond/behave

I haven't read anything about Yager, Danielson, Barlow, Wood from the combine. Anyone has seen anything about them?

Aside from the response and behavior thing that no one really knows about, you can say the same thing about all these guys. Im just trying to understand the hype machine you guys are running.

I'd say Leonard is more creative than anyone not named Wood there, and a much better skater than Wood.

I'd have them

Leonard
Wood
Yager
Barlow
Danielson

Is he more creative or was he just dunking on kids all year ? Does he own a better shot than any of them ? No, only Danielson has a worse shot. Is he a better skater ? Yager and Danieklson compare well, Barlow is powerful but a bit worse and Wood is obviously worse. Is he a better playmaker than them ? Better than Barlow at least. Is he a better forechecker than them ? Id say than Wood, the rest is a no. Is he a better shadow defensive forward ? Maybe than Wood. Hands ? I guess better than Barlow.

Like he scores a 6.5 everywhere and most of those prospects score a 6.5 with a 7.5 and 5.5, and yet Leonard is talked about in the top 5 while all these guys are universally outside the top 10 and for some, even outside the top 20.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I think there are a few things going for Leonard right now:
- scouts looked at his development curve this season (since it's the time of the year they come up with their final list) and found it one of the best of the draftees
- everyone who saw him at the draft thinks he looks like a physically solid hockey player already
- everyone who talked to him at the combine really likes how he respond/behave

I haven't read anything about Yager, Danielson, Barlow, Wood from the combine. Anyone has seen anything about them?

Nothing on any of them.

But you're correct on the points you brought up.

He has a similar helium to his draft profile as Cutter Gauthier.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Aside from the response and behavior thing that no one really knows about, you can say the same thing about all these guys. Im just trying to understand the hype machine you guys are running.



Is he more creative or was he just dunking on kids all year ? Does he own a better shot than any of them ? No, only Danielson has a worse shot. Is he a better skater ? Yager and Danieklson compare well, Barlow is powerful but a bit worse and Wood is obviously worse. Is he a better playmaker than them ? Better than Barlow at least. Is he a better forechecker than them ? Id say than Wood, the rest is a no. Is he a better shadow defensive forward ? Maybe than Wood. Hands ? I guess better than Barlow.

Like he scores a 6.5 everywhere and most of those prospects score a 6.5 with a 7.5 and 5.5, and yet Leonard is talked about in the top 5 while all these guys are universally outside the top 10 and for some, even outside the top 20.

He is more creative. And it's not like Danielson, Barlow, and Yager weren't playing against kids all year either.

I'd also say, maybe barring Wood, that he's the smartest player of those listed.

 

[AHShadow]

Aside from the response and behavior thing that no one really knows about, you can say the same thing about all these guys. Im just trying to understand the hype machine you guys are running.


Is he more creative or was he just dunking on kids all year ? Does he own a better shot than any of them ? No, only Danielson has a worse shot. Is he a better skater ? Yager and Danieklson compare well, Barlow is powerful but a bit worse and Wood is obviously worse. Is he a better playmaker than them ? Better than Barlow at least. Is he a better forechecker than them ? Id say than Wood, the rest is a no. Is he a better shadow defensive forward ? Maybe than Wood. Hands ? I guess better than Barlow.

Like he scores a 6.5 everywhere and most of those prospects score a 6.5 with a 7.5 and 5.5, and yet Leonard is talked about in the top 5 while all these guys are universally outside the top 10 and for some, even outside the top 20.

Gonna take a stab at this, but I'm assuming it's cause he basically doesn't have any weaknesses compared to some of the prospects, produced well all-year and also shows character traits that everyone loves to see (ex: competitiveness, physical, etc).

So as a package he becomes more enticing even though compared to any one of the top 5, he's pretty bland.

I'm warming up to Leonard, but I'd also prefer anyone from the top 5 or Benson before him.

 

[Nicko999]

Tell me you know nothing about him, without telling me you know nothing about him. Taking leonard over smith = taking Tkachuk over KK.
But that's just my opinion it's OK to disagree

KK is not in the same stratosphere in terms of talent as Smith.

Smith has PPG+ potential, Leonard while very good has not.

The pick will be whoever remains out of Mitchkov/Smith. If anyone else is picked, Hughes/Gorton needs to be shown the door before the 1st round is done.

 

[Doublechin]

I thought I was one of the biggest Leonard supporter pre u-18s, I was one of the first one to have him top 10. Now out of nowhere, from the hype machine alone, he's a top 5 pick, lol.

Love Leonard and if he's the pick, just like Slaf, I know Ill love him when he gets to the Habs, but god Ill be pissed we pass on anyone above him.

Ill say this though.

If were talking about Leonard, why not Yager ? Why not Danielson ? Why not Barlow ? Why not Wood ?

What does Leonard do thats better than these guys ?

He's got compete and size over Yager

He's got skating and scoring over Danielson

He's got IQ and a 2 way game over Barlow

He's got skating and compete over Wood

For people preferring Leonard to Smith... have you not learned your lesson.

Kk instead of Brady
Slaf instead of Cooley
And now Leonard over Smith???

If you have too many small guys in a few years, you can trade some for grid when you actually have a better idea of your team's strengths and weaknesses. There is ZERO reason to draft someone based on grid or physicality at 5th overall. You can do that with the late 1st. The needs you have now or not gonna the needs in 5+ years when we are ready to compete.

Or else you end up with Therrien's perfect team of grinders.

Hey man

I didn't want KK, the guy I loved that year for us was Dobson and he ended up going 11th. By the end of the year I accepted that he was the preferred pick and I played along.

I wanted Cooley over Slaf last year, my top 2 were Cooley and Nemec

I'd take Leonard over Smith this year

 

[Mrb1p]

He's got compete and size over Yager

He's got skating and scoring over Danielson

He's got IQ and a 2 way game over Barlow

He's got skating and compete over Wood


Hey man

I didn't want KK, the guy I loved that year for us was Dobson and he ended up going 11th. By the end of the year I accepted that he was the preferred pick and I played along.

I wanted Cooley over Slaf last year, my top 2 were Cooley and Nemec

I'd take Leonard over Smith this year

Leonard gets a +2 inches mental buff because somewhere, someday a guy described his play as "powerforward" and now everyone assumes hes big, or something.

He's at a maximum a marginally better skater/shooter than Danielson, Danielson probably takes him everywhere else.

IQ and 2 way game ? What does that even mean ?

Again, it's pretty clear he's getting overrated on intangible basis. And I absolutely hate to be the person to say that because Im probably the one that hyped up Leonard the most during most of the year.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Leonard gets a +2 inches mental buff because somewhere, someday a guy described his play as "powerforward" and now everyone assumes hes big, or something.

He's at a maximum a marginally better skater/shooter than Danielson, Danielson probably takes him everywhere else.

IQ and 2 way game ? What does that even mean ?

Again, it's pretty clear he's getting overrated on intangible basis. And I absolutely hate to be the person to say that because Im probably the one that hyped up Leonard the most during most of the year.

IQ is the ability to quickly process the game, identify openings, set traps against the opposition, see plays before they develop, and make good choices more often than not.

Two way game is the sum of a player's offensive and defensive impact.

 

[Fantomas]

You don't see the upside?

Watch some tape, listen to people talk about him, there's plenty of upside there.

Plenty, sure. I think Leonard would be a nice pick lower than where the Habs are picking. It's no insult to him.

The conversation here is a little different though. Does he actually have elite upside (a la Tkachuk) or not. I think not.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Plenty, sure. I think Leonard would be a nice pick lower than where the Habs are picking. It's no insult to him.

The conversation here is a little different though. Does he actually have elite upside (a la Tkachuk) or not. I think not.

But no one thought Tkachuk had the elite upside at the draft either.. but Leonard has tools and has shown growth that indicates its certainly a possibility.

It's rare to have anyone eclipse 100 points.. Matthew Tkachuk is a rare player and he was available at 7th overall.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

But no one thought Tkachuk had the elite upside at the draft either.. but Leonard has tools and has shown growth that indicates its certainly a possibility.

It's rare to have anyone eclipse 100 points.. Matthew Tkachuk is a rare player and he was available at 7th overall.

6th, but I get your point.

Man, I was screaming for the Oilers to take Tkachuk at 4 that year, can't even imagine the havoc that team would wreak on the powerplay with him on it.

 

[WeThreeKings]

6th, but I get your point.

Man, I was screaming for the Oilers to take Tkachuk at 4 that year, can't even imagine the havoc that team would wreak on the powerplay with him on it.

The truth of the matter is that any player we take at 5 is going to need a developmental spike and a favorable environment to reach the heights of Matthew Tkachuk, from a point production standpoint.

There is a chance that nobody other than Bedard in this entire draft eclipses 100 points.

Yes, that includes Matvei Michkov. I think people are forgetting that there are actual concerns about Michkov translating to the NHL. He isn't a ready made superstar, there's deficiencies in his game that need to be developed out and there aren't many case studies of players who play like him and are productive in the NHL.

It's not just all geopolitical here with Michkov and I think people are forgetting that. It's a similar environment to Shane Wright where the exceptional status stuff and the U18s the year before had people believing that he was still this can't miss generational player. A lot of variance happens in a year when you are talking about teenagers.