2023 Draft Discussion

[Vector Cereal]

If we could get Heidt at 17 then his teammate Ziemmer with one of our 2nd rounders… that would be pretty sweet.

Glad to hear I’m not way off base with Heidt then. He could top Yager in my final rank, but the playoff production difference is a plus for Yager. That and he has a weapon of a shot but didn’t score that much this year, so you have to think there’s some positive regression coming there

 

[lilidk]

This guy, Brad Allen, scout, was only guy 2 years ago that put Cossa ahead of Walstandt in the draft .

 

[TheOctopusKid]

Glad to hear I’m not way off base with Heidt then. He could top Yager in my final rank, but the playoff production difference is a plus for Yager. That and he has a weapon of a shot but didn’t score that much this year, so you have to think there’s some positive regression coming there

You’re not wrong. It’s everyone else whose sleeping on him that is. The kid is basically everything we want and need at this point. He’s as elite of a play driver as there is in this class outside of some guy named Bedard. He’s a powerful skater, not just quick but strong, he’s always looking to set up his teammates, he’s tied with Berdad in assists in the WHL this year, and he has a nasty one timer to boot thst he doesn’t use. He’s got a mean temper, is smart defensively and has some pest like qualities to boot with a tenacious forecheck. We need a true pass first pivot and can make everyone better, we need some physicality and snarl with Bert gone, and we need guys who just can flat out up points - which he does with great aplomb. Oh yeah, he’s also really strong at the dot too taking all of PGs FOs. Remember the love affair we had with Savoie last year when he put up 90 in 65? Well, Heidt has 97 in 68 this year.

Heidt focused on consistency prior to 2023 NHL Draft | NHL.com

Center prospect led Prince George of Western Hockey League in scoring last season as 16-year-old

www.nhl.com

That interview is from Aug - he delivered. He brings it, and plays a really strong 200ft game but also happens to be a top 5 scorer talent in the WHL. He should absolutely be our pick, and I wouldn’t hate moving up from 17 to make sure he doesn’t get taken by then rat bastards in PIT

 

[NickH8]

Almost starting to look like Sale could be a guy who slips to 17. Not that he's played poorly to fall but he's in a large group of guys getting top 15 consideration with Wood, Danielson, Yager, Perreault, Moore, Honzek, ASP, etc.

 

[jkutswings]

Button put out a new list:

Craig's List: After impressive U18 showing, Axel Sandin Pellikka moves into Top 5 | TSN

Rising from No. 10 to No. 5 on Craig Button’s latest Craig's List, Axel Sandin Pellikka is fresh off winning best defenceman honours at the U18s in Switzerland after putting up 11 points in seven games to help Sweden earn silver.

www.tsn.ca

I hope several GMs have similar recency bias. It will leave a ton of great options for Detroit at 9, 17, and even in the second round.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Button put out a new list:

Craig's List: After impressive U18 showing, Axel Sandin Pellikka moves into Top 5 | TSN

Rising from No. 10 to No. 5 on Craig Button’s latest Craig's List, Axel Sandin Pellikka is fresh off winning best defenceman honours at the U18s in Switzerland after putting up 11 points in seven games to help Sweden earn silver.

www.tsn.ca

I hope several GMs have similar recency bias. It will leave a ton of great options for Detroit at 9, 17, and even in the second round.

I'm hoping either Montreal or Arizona bite on ASP here so we can get Reinbacher at 9 and send him to Rogle.

Almost starting to look like Sale could be a guy who slips to 17. Not that he's played poorly to fall but he's in a large group of guys getting top 15 consideration with Wood, Danielson, Yager, Perreault, Moore, Honzek, ASP, etc.

No Sale plzkthnx. When I first read about him there were some comparisons to Milan Hejduk, and who wouldn't want that? But when I saw Sale at the U18s, and some of his clips throughout the season, as well as more recent articles I added him to my list of "hard no" players at 9.

His profile reads like Ales Hemsky without the work ethic.

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

I'm hoping either Montreal or Arizona bite on ASP here so we can get Reinbacher at 9 and send him to Rogle.



No Sale plzkthnx. When I first read about him there were some comparisons to Milan Hejduk, and who wouldn't want that? But when I saw Sale at the U18s, and some of his clips throughout the season, as well as more recent articles I added him to my list of "hard no" players at 9.

His profile reads like Ales Hemsky without the work ethic.

Interesting List. ASP way too high. I’d be pretty stoked to get him at 17. He and Reinbacher are neck and neck in my book. Different strokes for different folks. Dont really want either at 9 though.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Interesting List. ASP way too high. I’d be pretty stoked to get him at 17. He and Reinbacher are neck and neck in my book. Different strokes for different folks. Dont really want either at 9 though.

ASP has great edges but (to me) looks like something between Nils Lundqvist and Adam Boqvist. He's looked great in J20 and even at the U18s but maaaan does his defense sucks. Like, it's so bad he makes Hronek look like Rod Langway.

I know everyone wants to mine for the next Adam Fox/Cale Makar/Quinn Hughes but I don't think that ASP is it. Tremendous skill, average to below average hockey sense, below average compete.

I don't know how many times I watched him decide to let the other team get into his defensive corner first on a dump in to avoid physical contact. And how many times he let the other team casually skate to his crease for a prime scoring chance because he was so non-chalant in his coverage, worrying more about rushing up ice than defending.

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

ASP has great edges but (to me) looks like something between Nils Lundqvist and Adam Boqvist. He's looked great in J20 and even at the U18s but maaaan does his defense sucks. Like, it's so bad he makes Hronek look like Rod Langway.

I know everyone wants to mine for the next Adam Fox/Cale Makar/Quinn Hughes but I don't think that ASP is it. Tremendous skill, average to below average hockey sense, below average compete.

I don't know how many times I watched him decide to let the other team get into his defensive corner first on a dump in to avoid physical contact. And how many times he let the other team casually skate to his crease for a prime scoring chance because he was so non-chalant in his coverage, worrying more about rushing up ice than defending.

He was pretty electric in the u18s. Also you won’t get the makar/Hughes/fox defenseman unless you take a chance. Alas probably all for not cause i don’t think ASP is a yzerman type defenseman. Dating back to tampa i fully expect him to pick a small skilled forward and or a bigger Defencman.

 

[NickH8]

Button put out a new list:

Craig's List: After impressive U18 showing, Axel Sandin Pellikka moves into Top 5 | TSN

Rising from No. 10 to No. 5 on Craig Button’s latest Craig's List, Axel Sandin Pellikka is fresh off winning best defenceman honours at the U18s in Switzerland after putting up 11 points in seven games to help Sweden earn silver.

www.tsn.ca

I hope several GMs have similar recency bias. It will leave a ton of great options for Detroit at 9, 17, and even in the second round.

Never understood the ASP hype.

 

[Frk It]

ASP has great edges but (to me) looks like something between Nils Lundqvist and Adam Boqvist. He's looked great in J20 and even at the U18s but maaaan does his defense sucks. Like, it's so bad he makes Hronek look like Rod Langway.

I know everyone wants to mine for the next Adam Fox/Cale Makar/Quinn Hughes but I don't think that ASP is it. Tremendous skill, average to below average hockey sense, below average compete.

I don't know how many times I watched him decide to let the other team get into his defensive corner first on a dump in to avoid physical contact. And how many times he let the other team casually skate to his crease for a prime scoring chance because he was so non-chalant in his coverage, worrying more about rushing up ice than defending.

I don't really want ASP, but I don't think how you are describing his game is accurate.

I don't think he is some small pure offensive guy who can't play defense. Not sure why that gets talked about with him.

I think he is a small 2 way defenseman. Which I am not really sure is better from a value proposotion, but I don't think he plays like the guys are you listing as far as Makar/Hughes.

I thought he was very smart/responsible for Sweden at the U18s, they trusted him with a lot of minutes and I think he was a big part of their success. Didn't see any of what you are describing when I watched them.

He kind of reminds me of Drysdale, the only issue is he doesn't skate nearly as good as Drysdale.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

He was pretty electric in the u18s. Also you won’t get the makar/Hughes/fox defenseman unless you take a chance. Alas probably all for not cause i don’t think ASP is a yzerman type defenseman. Dating back to tampa i fully expect him to pick a small skilled forward and or a bigger Defencman.

Fox was never supposed to be the Adam Fox we're seeing in New York. Also Cale Makar was electric and had that same high motor but there were worries because he wasn't in either the USHL or in the CHL during his draft year. Quinn Hughes skating and on-ice awareness was always his calling card.

With ASP he's got good skating, but not as elite as Makar or Hughes. Offensive zone awareness isn't as high as you'd like for a guy with his profile and some scouts and journalists have mentioned this quite a bit. He's thrilling on the rush against disorganized junior defenses. But in a structured game? Not so much. The kid will be a project.

 

[jkutswings]

Crazy Talk:

The TSN headline is that middle six forwards and goaltending were the culprits for Edmonton. Would either team consider the following:

To Edmonton - Kasper, Rasmussen, #9 this year
To Detroit - Draisaitl

The Oilers get a couple of promising and cost controlled forwards that play a very playoff-friendly style, a top ten pick, and over $6M in cap relief to help further bolster things. Detroit gets a bona fide stud up front.

Way off? Thoughts?

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I don't really want ASP, but I don't think how you are describing his game is accurate.

I don't think he is some small pure offensive guy who can't play defense. Not sure why that gets talked about with him.

I think he is a small 2 way defenseman. Which I am not really sure is better from a value proposotion, but I don't think he plays like the guys are you listing as far as Makar/Hughes.

I thought he was very smart/responsible for Sweden at the U18s, they trusted him with a lot of minutes and I think he was a big part of their success. Didn't see any of what you are describing when I watched them.

He kind of reminds me of Drysdale, the only issue is he doesn't skate nearly as good as Drysdale.

I'm describing him as I've seen him in the SHL and J20. What you saw at the U18s was fools gold against other smaller, junior aged players. Also, while I'm not a Drysdale stan, Drysdale competes 100% harder than ASP. He's also bigger.

Saying ASP's game is 2-way is a mistake. He's about as one-dimensional as a defenseman can get. I know the "his defense makes Hronek look like Langway" is hyperbolic, but ASP is flat out bad at defending. On the rush, in the corners, in front of the net.

If you're looking for a defenseman to generate REAL sustained offense you want to look at guys that are game managers. This is why guys like Keith, Doughty, Lidstrom, Niedermeyer were successful. They could battle off a forecheck, settle the puck down, force the other team to reset or change and either headman the puck up ice or skate it out themselves. That's the same reason why guys like Fox and Makar and take your pick of any of the top 25 D in the league are also successful. With ASP he's not going to weather a forecheck.

I believe your best case scenario with him is Gostisbehere, Torey Krug or Tyson Barrie. Sheltered 5v5 minutes, PP1 guy. Those guys have their place in the league but my preference is for the guys that can actually take care of their own end and you don't have to worry about putting them out there against a top line.

 

[Bench]

Crazy Talk:

The TSN headline is that middle six forwards and goaltending were the culprits for Edmonton. Would either team consider the following:

To Edmonton - Kasper, Rasmussen, #9 this year
To Detroit - Draisaitl

The Oilers get a couple of promising and cost controlled forwards that play a very playoff-friendly style, a top ten pick, and over $6M in cap relief to help further bolster things. Detroit gets a bona fide stud up front.

Way off? Thoughts?

I'll eat all the hats on the forum if Holland trades one of his big stars. Draisaitl would need to demand a trade.

As for value, I think that's a little light, only because Kasper is an unproven quantity.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Crazy Talk:

The TSN headline is that middle six forwards and goaltending were the culprits for Edmonton. Would either team consider the following:

To Edmonton - Kasper, Rasmussen, #9 this year
To Detroit - Draisaitl

The Oilers get a couple of promising and cost controlled forwards that play a very playoff-friendly style, a top ten pick, and over $6M in cap relief to help further bolster things. Detroit gets a bona fide stud up front.

Way off? Thoughts?

Not happening. Also not the thread for it.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

Crazy Talk:

The TSN headline is that middle six forwards and goaltending were the culprits for Edmonton. Would either team consider the following:

To Edmonton - Kasper, Rasmussen, #9 this year
To Detroit - Draisaitl

The Oilers get a couple of promising and cost controlled forwards that play a very playoff-friendly style, a top ten pick, and over $6M in cap relief to help further bolster things. Detroit gets a bona fide stud up front.

Way off? Thoughts?

I think we can generally forget any real "trade for super elite in his prime superstar" talks unless something SUPER weird happens (a la Eichel). I know it's fun to postulate, but the number of times this actually happens without something super toxic as the catalyst (Eichel, Karlsson, Roy, Lindros, etc.), it seems highly unlikely that this actually in the cards with any of these guys.

Probably the closest to this in recent memory was...Thornton?

 

[Frk It]

I'm describing him as I've seen him in the SHL and J20. What you saw at the U18s was fools gold against other smaller, junior aged players. Also, while I'm not a Drysdale stan, Drysdale competes 100% harder than ASP. He's also bigger.

Saying ASP's game is 2-way is a mistake. He's about as one-dimensional as a defenseman can get. I know the "his defense makes Hronek look like Langway" is hyperbolic, but ASP is flat out bad at defending. On the rush, in the corners, in front of the net.

If you're looking for a defenseman to generate REAL sustained offense you want to look at guys that are game managers. This is why guys like Keith, Doughty, Lidstrom, Niedermeyer were successful. They could battle off a forecheck, settle the puck down, force the other team to reset or change and either headman the puck up ice or skate it out themselves. That's the same reason why guys like Fox and Makar and take your pick of any of the top 25 D in the league are also successful. With ASP he's not going to weather a forecheck.

I believe your best case scenario with him is Gostisbehere, Torey Krug or Tyson Barrie. Sheltered 5v5 minutes, PP1 guy. Those guys have their place in the league but my preference is for the guys that can actually take care of their own end and you don't have to worry about putting them out there against a top line.

Playing well at the U18s against teams like Canada means something. Might even be a better measuring stick than watching someone play 8 min in the SHL. See: Lucas Raymond

That aside, he clearly does not have the offensive game of the people you are trying to lump him in with (Makar, Hughes, Boqvist)

So yeah, if you think he is completely trash defensively (I don't) then I could see why you don't like him. I think his defensive game is solid, which is part of why he was able to be a big minute muncher against teams like Canada and get keep them off the score board. And I think he might project to be a better defensive player than some of the pure offensive guys like Boqvist in the NHL.

So I will disagree on some of those notions.

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

We want the ASP hype train to get rolling. If he lands in the top 8 that pushes down one more from the group of players we want. Just cant see the Wings being interested in a LD at 9, no matter how good he might be.

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

Not happening. Also not the thread for it.

you tell him mod ogee

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Playing well at the U18s against teams like Canada means something. Might even be a better measuring stick than watching someone play 8 min in the SHL. See: Lucas Raymond

That aside, he clearly does not have the offensive game of the people you are trying to lump him in with (Makar, Hughes, Boqvist)

So yeah, if you think he is completely trash defensively (I don't) then I could see why you don't like him. I think his defensive game is solid, which is part of why he was able to be a big minute munchers against teams like Canada and get keep them off the score board. And I think he might project to be a better defensive player than some of the pure offensive guys like Boqvist in the NHL.

So I will disagree on some of those notions.

I'm NOT trying to lump him in that group. In my TLDR version, I'm trying to tell you and others to not lump him into that group just because he's a small offensive defenseman.

Also I'm not saying he was just bad defensively in the SHL (he was) but also in J20. The guy looks good with the puck on his stick but without it he's just kinda...there.

While I think the U18s have some importance, it's probably the 3rd most important tournament of the season because so many players age out of it during the draft year and few countries are able to fully bring their "A" team. I think the Hlinka does more to highlight the players early in the season, and the U20s do more to show a player's real potential because they're playing against more mature players.

 

[Frk It]

I'm NOT trying to lump him in that group. In my TLDR version, I'm trying to tell you and others to not lump him into that group just because he's a small offensive defenseman.

Also I'm not saying he was just bad defensively in the SHL (he was) but also in J20. The guy looks good with the puck on his stick but without it he's just kinda...there.

While I think the U18s have some importance, it's probably the 3rd most important tournament of the season because so many players age out of it during the draft year and few countries are able to fully bring their "A" team. I think the Hlinka does more to highlight the players early in the season, and the U20s do more to show a player's real potential because they're playing against more mature players.

Ultimately we probably agree.

Even though I was really impressed with what I saw from him at the U18s, that was still barely enough for me to rank him like #20.

There are a lot of forwards in this draft that I prefer to him.

He is an undersized defenseman that is not an elite skater and not that special offensively. I think he is smart and does a lot of things well. I don't really see the calling card to draft him that high. Might consider flipping him with Willander when I make a final list. Might even prefer a risk like Gulyayev over him.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Ultimately we probably agree.

Even though I was really impressed with what I saw from him at the U18s, that was still barely enough for me to rank him like #20.

There are a lot of forwards in this draft that I prefer to him.

He is an undersized defenseman that is not an elite skater and not that special offensively. I think he is smart and does a lot of things well. I don't really see the calling card to draft him that high. Might consider flipping him with Willander when I make a final list. Might even prefer a risk like Gulyayev over him.

Between ASP and Willander? I lean towards Willander but that's more on my style preference.

Willander is a guy that can go out there, will do battle in the corners, won't shy away from contact, and safely move the puck out of the zone. His strengths are his skating, smarts and competitiveness. Could probably jump up in the play more to be more effective but that may eventually come. I've described him as a coach's dream #4 defenseman. Win the battle, move the puck to your D partner or center, and be ready to do it again if your team can't establish a cycle.

I don't think he's a sexy pick but is a safe bet to hit his potential and be a contributor. And with Wallinder, Edvinsson, Seider and Johansson, how much more rush offense does this team need from their defensive prospects?

 

[jkutswings]

I'll eat all the hats on the forum if Holland trades one of his big stars. Draisaitl would need to demand a trade.

As for value, I think that's a little light, only because Kasper is an unproven quantity.

Yeah, I wondered if another pick needed to be added to balance it on paper. But I get it that nobody pulls that trigger unless things really go sideways. Just speculating.

 

[Chad Smiley]

Never understood the ASP hype.

If someone gets him Moore at #16 they will be ecstatic. The Red Wings desperately need center help and speed. Moore has speed and is one of the best skaters in the draft.