2023 Draft Discussion

[Michael Brand Eggs]

Nm, Bultman deceived me with his late tweeting. He tweeted March's rankings last night like they were new.

 

[Detroit Knights]

And if they get him to sign... why are they trading him? The sole reason you'd trade him is that he doesn't want to sign with you.

And an extended Timo Meier will cost a lot more than a 1st and 2 2nds. It just will.

Am I the only one who has heard of a sign and trade?

If we get approval from NJD to speak to Meier before the trade (like most GM's allow other than vancouver with Horvat when they know the player will not sign with their current team) we can give him a contract that he agrees with and signs.

When he agrees to the contract NJD will trade him to us and we offer them the 1st and two 2nds...You never trade for a RFA after the season without a guarantee they sign...then you give up assets for literally no reason.

Seriously, am I the only one that knows this? Please tell me someone else know this.........It isn't something that is widely used in the NHL, but Trevling did it with Tkachuk and Florida.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I like pretty much all the guys you mention here, I would be shocked if Ritchie is still there for those picks though.

I agree, he is probably a bit of a stretch. I could still see someone taking him towards the end of the 1st round (same even goes for Stramel) if they see him as an NHL center. I don't think he goes early, but he could certainly still go in the 1st.

I honestly don't have a great feel for the class outside of the top 20 guys. I think we have some good Russians in this class but have no clue how they are actually being valued at this point.

I need the U18s to formulate better opinions of the European crop this year.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Am I the only one who has heard of a sign and trade?

If we get approval from NJD to speak to Meier before the trade (like most GM's allow other than vancouver with Horvat when they know the player will not sign with their current team) we can give him a contract that he agrees with and signs.

When he agrees to the contract NJD will trade him to us and we offer them the 1st and two 2nds...You never trade for a RFA after the season without a guarantee they sign...then you give up assets for literally no reason.

Seriously, am I the only one that knows this? Please tell me someone else know this.........It isn't something that is widely used in the NHL, but Trevling did it with Tkachuk and Florida.

That's not a sign and trade. That's just a trade. And a 1st and two 2nds does not get you an extended Meier.

Why would a team pay appreciably more when they can just talk to the player under the reasoning of signing an OS?

If you ever have to ask "does anyone know this but me?"... the answer to that question is always no... or you're operating with an incorrect understanding of something.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Just put this kid in the lineup already.

 

[Detroit Knights]

That's not a sign and trade. That's just a trade. And a 1st and two 2nds does not get you an extended Meier.

Why would a team pay appreciably more when they can just talk to the player under the reasoning of signing an OS?

If you ever have to ask "does anyone know this but me?"... the answer to that question is always no... or you're operating with an incorrect understanding of something.

Or it sounds like you have are operating with an incorrect understanding of something.

------------------

As if Brad Treliving wasn’t already in a tough spot, the Tkachuk news seemingly backed him into a corner that he may never get out of. Trading a 24-year-old superstar coming off an 100+ point season who is a restricted free agent (RFA) without losing the trade is hard enough. However, because of the circumstances, Tkachuk had leverage with the list of teams he’d agree to sign long-term extensions with, which effectively creates a no-trade clause despite there not being one in his contract. Pulling off a trade like this takes a ton of creativity.

What is a sign-and-trade?​

Considering something like that has never been done in NHL history, you may be asking what exactly is a sign-and-trade and what is its purpose? A sign-and-trade is quite common in the NBA, but as usual the NHL is boring and had never seen one before last week.

A sign-and-trade is essentially when a team has an agreement in place to sign a player to a new contract, and then immediately trade them to a new team. It’s a way to help a team capitalize on players that they would most likely lose for nothing if that player became a free agent, by using their leverage of still owning a players rights.


This is typically done when a team knows it will be unable to retain a player who is an upcoming free agent, or the player has made it known they do not want to re-sign with their current team.

This enables the team to receive assets for a departing player, gives the player the chance to earn a higher salary on a longer term deal, and gives the players new team the option to have their incoming player signed for longer than they could sign them for themselves.

------------------

So, Calgary new he wasn't going to sign (like everyone else), gave a list of teams he would sign long term with, GM calls said teams and see's if they will make a trade, then they trade an expiring RFA player instead of losing them for nothing in Free Agency. His current team then gives him a contract for the amount that was agreed upon with the team that is trading for him and they get their player without having multiple teams throw contracts at said player, letting him choose.

 

[Detroit Knights]

of course it makes no sense for a team to trade a RFA if they can just sign them to play for their team. That literally makes no sense unless the return is ridiculous.

That is also, not at all what a sign and trade is.

It also helps get the player for the 8th year because you can't trade for a RFA and sign an 8 year contract.

 

[Frk It]

Am I the only one who has heard of a sign and trade?

If we get approval from NJD to speak to Meier before the trade (like most GM's allow other than vancouver with Horvat when they know the player will not sign with their current team) we can give him a contract that he agrees with and signs.

When he agrees to the contract NJD will trade him to us and we offer them the 1st and two 2nds...You never trade for a RFA after the season without a guarantee they sign...then you give up assets for literally no reason.

Seriously, am I the only one that knows this? Please tell me someone else know this.........It isn't something that is widely used in the NHL, but Trevling did it with Tkachuk and Florida.

Why do you think NJ won’t be able to sign him? Why do you think NJ traded for him just to trade him to someone else?

Maybe answer those questions first.

 

[Detroit Knights]

Why do you think NJ won’t be able to sign him? Why do you think NJ traded for him just to trade him to someone else?

Maybe answer those questions first.

Why would a player get traded and not sign the extension in a reasonable amount of time? Maybe he doesn't want to go play their for the next 8 years. So, maybe he doesn't want to stay there and that is why NJD can't sign him to an extension?

When was the last time a RFA player has not signed an extension when traded, with the caveat that they are a big name player? Horvat was UFA and he signed. Huberdeau, Weager, etc.

NJ traded for him to play with them and score goals, hopefully signing long-term, of which he hasn't done yet. Also, with their cap structure and how many people are UFA/RFA for them already, I don't see how they will be able to afford another 9-10mil player when they still have to sign:

Meier (RFA)
Bratt (RFA)
Tatar
Wood
Haula
Sharangovich (RFA)
Mcleod (RFA)
Boqvist
Bastian (RFA)
Severson
Graves
Bahl (RFA)
Blackwood

They have 34 million in cap space next year without these guys signed. Do you honestly think they could sign a player to take 30%+ of their remaining amount? Keep in mind, if they did do that, how much of a raise or salary decrease are you going to give Bratt who is making 5.45 mil this season? Tatar 4.5 mil. Boqvist probably should get a raise from his 875k salary right? Should Severson be traded? Because he is making 4.2 mil this year and probably deserves a raise too.

 

[Frk It]

Why would a player get traded and not sign the extension in a reasonable amount of time? Maybe he doesn't want to go play their for the next 8 years. So, maybe he doesn't want to stay there and that is why NJD can't sign him to an extension?

When was the last time a RFA player has not signed an extension when traded, with the caveat that they are a big name player? Horvat was UFA and he signed. Huberdeau, Weager, etc.

NJ traded for him to play with them and score goals, hopefully signing long-term, of which he hasn't done yet. Also, with their cap structure and how many people are UFA/RFA for them already, I don't see how they will be able to afford another 9-10mil player when they still have to sign:

Meier (RFA)
Bratt (RFA)
Tatar
Wood
Haula
Sharangovich (RFA)
Mcleod (RFA)
Bogvist (RFA)
Bastian (RFA)
Severson
Graves
Bahl (RFA)
Blackwood

They have 34 million in cap space next year without these guys signed. Do you honestly think they could sign a player to take 30%+ of their remaining amount?

When was the last time a team traded a 1st rounder + for a good young player and then signed/extended and traded them to someone else within a year?

I literally can't think of any examples of this.

 

[Detroit Knights]

When was the last time a team traded a 1st rounder + for a good young player and then signed/extended and traded them to someone else within a year?

I literally can't think of any examples of this.

That's all you got from what I wrote?

It is fiscally impossible to sign all of their players next year, so which RFA is going to be cut from the team? Or are they literally going to let all of the UFA's walk including Severson/tatar/etc.?

You can't read the first 3 lines and then think you have the full story. Read the rest, because I answered your questions.

 

[Frk It]

That's all you got from what I wrote?

It is fiscally impossible to sign all of their players next year, so which RFA is going to be cut from the team? Or are they literally going to let all of the UFA's walk including Severson/tatar/etc.?

You can't read the first 3 lines and then think you have the full story. Read the rest, because I answered your questions.

Do you think they traded for Timo Meier and then were like oh f*** we don’t have the money to keep him and are going to offload him?

You think they basically had 0 foresight or awareness of their current cap situation and traded assets for a player just to sign him and flip him somewhere else?

How many players you listed is Meier better than? Damn near all of them. Signing Meier would be more important to me than anyone you listed there.

And yeah, if you can’t name an example of this scenario actually happening.. I’d say that’s relevant.

 

[Electric Eric]

Whole lot of words for something that has happened once.

 

[Bench]

Timo Meier being an RFA should basically kill any discussion around him.

The only way he's not a Devil is if he absolutely forces his way out and demands a trade.

See: DeBrincat forcing a trade from Ottawa.

 

[Detroit Knights]

Do you think they traded for Timo Meier and then were like oh f*** we don’t have the money to keep him and are going to offload him?

You think they basically had 0 foresight or awareness of their current cap situation and traded assets for a player just to sign him and flip him somewhere else?

How many players you listed is Meier better than? Damn near all of them. Signing Meier would be more important to me than anyone you listed there.

And yeah, if you can’t name an example of this scenario actually happening.. I’d say that’s relevant.

So you are saying you are going to sign meier at 9-10 mil cap hit.

Bratt will probably get 6-7? Even though he is a PPG player...
Severson at least 5? Even though he is one of their better defensemen, and is RHD, but those grow on trees I heard...

That's over 20 mil already with lower cap hits then I would expect. And you are no where near the roster min/max

0 foresight? No, but I believe they think they could try to get him at a lower cap hit once traded because NJD have a team that could be perennial contenders, especially with him on it. Or, quite possibly, they wanted to go for it all and it was a very seller's market for this year's deadline.

I also am not convinced Meier is better than Bratt, so it wouldn't make sense to pay Bratt "considerably" less than Meier.

Whole lot of words for something that has happened once.

It happened once in the NBA and now it is essentially in every trade they do. A lot of things happen for the first time...basically all of them, no?

 

[norrisnick]

Timo Meier being an RFA should basically kill any discussion around him.

The only way he's not a Devil is if he absolutely forces his way out and demands a trade.

See: DeBrincat forcing a trade from Ottawa.

That and a lot of these discussions are way early. Let's see the 8 first round disappointments finish to see what sort of shake ups are imminent.

 

[Detroit Knights]

Timo Meier being an RFA should basically kill any discussion around him.

The only way he's not a Devil is if he absolutely forces his way out and demands a trade.

See: DeBrincat forcing a trade from Ottawa.

Calgary opened the door to this entire scenario.

Debrincat would be another example of someone who hasn't signed an extension as a big name RFA. They also don't have a lot of cap room to work with all of their RFA's and UFA's. So same discussion as Meier could be had for Debrincat, another 40 goal scorer.

 

[lilidk]

I like this kid , whoud be nice to grab him with Vancouver pick.

 

[Bench]

Whole lot of words for something that has happened once.

And under completely different circumstances.

 

[Frk It]

So you are saying you are going to sign meier at 9-10 mil cap hit.

Bratt will probably get 6-7? Even though he is a PPG player...
Severson at least 5? Even though he is one of their better defensemen, and is RHD, but those grow on trees I heard...

That's over 20 mil already with lower cap hits then I would expect. And you are no where near the roster min/max

0 foresight? No, but I believe they think they could try to get him at a lower cap hit once traded because NJD have a team that could be perennial contenders, especially with him on it. Or, quite possibly, they wanted to go for it all and it was a very seller's market for this year's deadline.

I also am not convinced Meier is better than Bratt, so it wouldn't make sense to pay Bratt "considerably" less than Meier.

It happened once in the NBA and now it is essentially in every trade they do. A lot of things happen for the first time...basically all of them, no?

Me personally, I’m not trading for him to begin with if I’m not ok with signing him to what he’s going to be worth. And you should have a really good idea of what he’s going to get and what guys you have up for new deals. I’m not going to assume incompetence as a given, although it does happen. Or maybe things change to a degree.

But all in all I think this sign and trade scenario is pretty unlikely unfortunately, which stinks because I do like Meier a lot.

 

[Bench]

Calgary opened the door to this entire scenario.

My dude. Calgary hadn't just traded a haul for Tkachuk. It's not the same scenario at all.

Using that parallel with Timo, San Jose is the Calgary not New Jersey.

If you want Timo on the trade market you need to hope and pray Timo sucks in the playoffs and then contract negotiations go south.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

The UFA class this year is ass. All the decent players are RFAs. The only player I'd want to sign is Dumba on a cheap deal for the 2nd\3rd pair.

Next year's UFA class is really, really good, and a few of the top Cs are on teams that will be bumping the salary cap and are going to have to make hard decisions, or teams that are going to start trending downward. You may see several of Nylander, Sebastian Aho, Scheifele, Pettersson, Matthews, Guentzel, or Reinhart available at the deadline or in UFA next season.

If you can swing a trade for a top-line wing or second line center at the draft, go for it.

Run this for next season to get the young guys experience:

Kubalik-Larkin-Raymond
Berggren-Copp-Perron
Rasmussen-Kasper-Soderblom (this could be a really, really nasty line to play against)
Zadina-Veleno-Fabbri

Seider-Walman
Maatta-Edvinsson
Chiarot-Dumba

Husso
Hellberg\Ned

Call up Mazur throughout the season, promote him full-time in 2024. Give Wallinder and AlJo some shots in the NHL. Try to find a way to dump Chiarot or make him the 7th D in 2024.

With Mazur, Kasper, Soderblom, and Rasmussen in the middle-6 and Seider\Edvinsson eating up 45-50 minutes of game time, this team is not gonna be easy to play against from 2024 onward.

The defense alone next year is too good for bottom 5 finish but that roster will get you in the top 10 picks again next year. They'll make the playoffs in 2024-2025 and still have 4 1st round picks from this year and next year working their way up the system.

 

[Detroit Knights]

My dude. Calgary hadn't just traded a haul for Tkachuk. It's not the same scenario at all.

Using that parallel with Timo, San Jose is the Calgary not New Jersey.

If you want Timo on the trade market you need to hope and pray Timo sucks in the playoffs and then contract negotiations go south.

Agree to disagree. San Jose traded him at deadline. Calgary traded after the season ended. Those are two different timeframes that give two wildly different outcomes.

Trade in season: maybe he stays? Gaudreau could talk him into staying right?
Trade out of season: well we lost gaudreau for nothing, can't let that happen to tkachuk too.

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

Can we talk about the draft again

 

[norrisnick]

Can we talk about the draft again

No.

We need to talk about Timo and sign and trades in every thread.

As for the new player selection process later this year... goal scorers plzkthxbai